The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
There are certain "veteran" members out there and there are very few of them, so please don't take offense to this if this doesn't apply to you. Certain people who've made mistake after mistake and have learned to twist and turn the principles of the program to fit their situation and make it okay instead of owning up to it.
I'm tired of being told that I need to make my meetings, only to have the principles of the program thrown in my face from those who are holier than thou because they think that they have a strong program. It makes those of us who are "weaker" not ever want to come back. Rather than be so condesending, these people really need to look in the mirror and take a more thorough inventory of themselves. It's the people that are like this who turned me off of organized religion, and now it's happening with Al-Anon. The people who judge others and are better and think that they have all the answers- these people think that they are working their programs and they put on the show that they are well adjusted and so on, but I think that they are more miserable than us "weak" ones.
That being said, I should now say that I feel sorry for these people. I have been one in the past to look down on people for their way of dealing with things and I have probably been one to push my advice and beliefs upon another person. I had learned in Al-Anon not to judge. It's really hard when you're faced with veterans of the program who judge your every move....
I am doing the best I can and doing a pretty damn good job given the circumstances I have been in. I am going to make it through this okay with the help of GOD, not the people who feel that they are the all knowing. One of the biggest things I have learned in Al-Anon is that I am not God- don't forget to look at yourself in the mirror.
Really not sure of the intent of this post, other as a somewhat ambiguous attack on certain (unnamed) members....
Your points, however, are well taken.... many times on here, it is relatively easy to get into the habit of offering "free advice", particularly when it is asked for.... I think, what we ALL need to remember and keep in mind, on MIP, is that we are NOT experts, nor do we know inherently what is the "right or wrong" thing to do.
Sharing our own E,S,& H is beneficial to ourselves, to the person posting, and to many others who choose to read. My sponsor used to use a fun play on words, to remind me (and him, for that matter) that:
Don't let anyone "should" on me..... I will also do my best never to "should" upon others.
Take care
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Welcome to Mip, I have been In this programme for one year. I look to fellow members for experience, strength and hope. But one of the first things I was told when I joined was.
"TAKE WHAT YOU LIKE AND LEAVE THE REST"
That Is so true. People In this fellowship are not here to judge you, and they know that. I would ask that you concentrate on "YOU". Work your programme at your own pace, and how you like. No-one Is In here to make judgement on anyone else.
Please don't let a few comments put you off the programme.
Like canadianguy, I am not sure of the intent of your post either, but perhaps I am one of the "strong," "together" ones who offers her opinion more than once in a while. Al Anon has a slogan: "Take what you like and leave the rest." I believe that each of us has the intelligence to understand that slogan, and I believe it is an important one to remember. Keep in mind that caring comes in lots of different packages. No one here wishes you any ill will. Also remember that "veteran" member means nothing here on MIP except the number of times a member has posted. I am listed as a "service worker." I don't think so, but the title comes from the number of postings I have made, and means nothing else.
As long as there is more than one person on the earth, there is going to be more than one opinion. I reserve the right to state mine, and I am glad that you have stated yours. It's all a matter of accepting the fact that human nature, being what it is, is something we must learn to deal with. Otherwise we never understand anything.
Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 15:32, 2007-01-15
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
What an excellent share. Why do I say that? Because it reminds me to have humility, to be humble. No matter how much I may learn, there is always more to learn.
I have put "veterans" on a pedastal before. And oh the disappointment when I saw them do/say something which I thought wasn't right. "How could they?" I raged, "They should know better!" But you know what that taught me? It taught me, that no matter what, every single one of us is still an imperfect human being and can still make errors. It taught me to really look at my own expectations and to adjust those as needed and to work on acceptance.
Nowadays when I find myself getting upset over what someone else may have done or said, instead of flying off the handle at them, I first ask myself, why is this bothering me? Do I need to say something to them, or is this a matter that I need to deal with within myself? I know I can't change/control anyone else. But I can change/control me. At the very least, I can say to myself, well I don't want to be like them! And knowing that, I can then work on myself so that I don't act/do as they do.
I'm not afraid to look in a mirror these days. I may not always like what I see, cause yeah, I still slip... but I can at least acknowledge that now and try to change it. I'm not afraid of constructive criticism either. Sometimes it is very helpful to me. When I see a conflict regarding the principles... even that helps me because I am one to drag out the books and start studying them, to discuss with others what they mean, to read everything I can find that our WSO has put out on them. Those people at our head office are really nice and helpful. What a wealth of information they have available to every single one of us.
And choices....we are always reminded we have choices. If I find I cannot thrive in a situation, I can choose to go elsewhere where I do thrive. There have been instances where groups have died due to one of the 3 Obstacles to Success in Al-Anon.... (1) Discussion of religion, (2) Gossip, and (3) Dominance. (These can be found in the pamphlet "Alcoholism the Family Disease")
Your post made me think of Dominance. Where someone is trying to direct or manage the whole group. The pamphlet under that obstacle states, "Our leaders are chosen not to govern, but to serve. No member of Al-Anon should direct, assume authority or give advice. Our program is based on suggestion, interchange of experience, rotation of leadership. We progress in our own way and pace. Any attempt to manage or direct is likely to have disastrous consequences for group harmony." (From "Alcoholism the Family Disease,". (Pamphlet P-4) Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc., New York, New York, page 24. Used with limited permission by the publisher.)
I applaud your last paragraph!! Yes, keep coming back for YOU, not because someone else says you need to. You are right, no one else can judge our progress or tell us what we need. Only HP knows that. I actually find it more inspiring to see someone who is really struggling yet continues to keep coming back. That to me is someone who really really wants this program, who wants the principles despite the personalities.. teehee.
Thank you so much for your share.
In support, Kis
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Let your light shine in the darkness. "I can't just bring my mind to meetings...I must also bring my heart."
What I have to keep in mind is that this program is foremost for me.
It is comprised of all kinds of people. People in differing stages of recovery. People who go to meetings work the 12 steps, read the literature and for whom it becomes a way of life. There are also those who havent completely committed themselves to this simple program of recovery to the level that others have.
That being said, I myself find the slogan take what you like, as others have resonded to be the key. I try not to let my own personal opinion of whether or not someone is being "holier than thou" cloud my ability to listen to what they are saying, and if it is something that I can use I accept it. If not, I just let it slide out the other side of my head the best I can.
I will also tell you, that just because I can't claim to be perfect at working this program in every aspect of my life...that after 3 years, hundreds of meetings, many conferences and many, many pieces of literature read...that I often find principals of the program being offered to other people in meetings even if I don't apply them perfectly myself.
Just because, for instance, I am not perfect at detachment, doesnt mean I can't pass that concept on to someone else. I like to call that me or someone else being a vessel. My HP uses me as a vessel all the time when I allow Him to. It doesnt make me a hypocrite. I just makes me a messenger.
I have learned in Al-anon, that it is very important for me to listen to the messages with an open heart and try not to let my personal feelings either bad or good towards the messenger block the delivery. I never know when or from whom I am going to hear something I need to.
Sorry you feel this way. Not all of the people in the program are this way at all. We all are at different places in our recovery. Veteran or non-veteran, somedays we get it somedays we don't. I went to a f2f meeting once....there was a man there that I know has been in the program for more than 15 years. I shared when it was my turn...which was hard for me to do then. When it came around to his turn, he went off on me.....with "you need, you need, I didn't hear that you have a sponsor, you need" Then, when I told him I have a sponsor and it was a male one......"you need.... you need".
I was frustrated that day. Was what he was doing to me right? No. Was it his place? No. Does he have a strong program most days....YES! He was at a different place that day. If he had a problem....it was him not me. Him! Not me! I still listen to him at meeting. I still say hello to him....and hear a lot of the wisdom he has with his ESH.
I don't have it myself everyday. I am living 100% better than I was 2 yrs ago. I can handle so much more. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. Ever. I don't want it to be. I need rough spots to remind me I am alive and can still feel.
Sad but true, on a different note....there are many out there that "attend" the program. They "attend". I couldn't get recovery by attending, tried it for a little bit and it just didn't work....I had to get out there and work it...I had to become a member of it. I had to learn how to sit down and shut up. (exact words of my orignal sponsor) Keep my mind open and know that I didn't have a right to judge not one person inside or outside of this program.
I am just talking about my experience and what I have learned to this point. I am not refering to anyone else's. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion. It is not my job to invalidate their opinion inorder to validate my own. What I can see, is another way of looking at something from their opinion.
Here is my quote on my profile....."All of us could take a lesson from the weather....it pays no attention to criticism". Sometimes, I have to read that and tell myself, I haven't got the right...neither do they...but that is them...that is not me.
As for someone not owning up to something...for me...that came in my 4th step for what I needed to own up to. What my part was and what needed to be done came later......these members just may not be there yet.
WE all come to alanon for one reason and one reason only because we are affected by alcohol. I had the same problem with older members throwing program at me. Until the day came it sank in. All i did was complain about what was going on and they were tyring to get me to see a better way i refused. Its one thing to complain on and on what goes on in life and never doing anything about it. There is no difference with oldler members other than they have detachment down better than new ones, and more experience in the program. If they see someone complain about thier A all the time they will tell you, to go to a meeting ,work the steps get a sponsor read the literature provided . Those are the tools that work in recovery and they are doing the best they can to pass the message of recovery on. That being said there is also another tool in this program that works well for "older members" and new ones. its take what you like and leave the rest.
I am very grateful for the older members for without them alanon would not exist it would be the blind leading the blind which would end in sick results. AS for looking in the mirror i completely agree however i always like the lead by example thing. Sorry if this is rough for you however i feel your post to be rough on people that are just trying to help.
kerry
-- Edited by kerry5 at 16:17, 2007-01-15
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Life can only be understood backwards, But it must be lived forwards
I think, if I'm reading your post right, what you're observing is an anchient human behavior known as "do as I say, not as I do." It grows from the realization that, no matter how hard one may try, perfection is an ideal, not a reality.
Having said this, it is painful for humans to admit their frailties, in al anon we call this ego. It becomes easier and easier to look for scapegoats to correct and analyze, never thinking that we, too, need to analyze and correct ourselves, lest that mean that we have work to do, growth to attend to, needs to asses. Indeed, when people play the "do as I say, not as I do" what they're really doing is pointing out their own faults using second person pronouns.
Now, having said all THAT, I come to the 10th step. What one does with this information is personal; it also stands to reason what causes one pain, one would not serve to cause in others. ARe you taking other people's inventory? Are you telling people what they should do, when they should do it, or how? Why? When have you ever seen benefits from enforcing your thinking onto others? And, lastly, are you "reacting" to the inventory takers, or are you "responding" to them? Do you say things like "Thank you for that insight, I will take it under advisement," or do you try to respond with a snyde remark?
A program of recovery is only as strong as the foundation of surrender. Think hard before you return the favor of another's action in their own coin.
All of you have good points and I really appreciate your feedback. After reading through my post again, I realized that it may have seemed as though I was attacking the program or most of the members. That is not the case at all. Fact of the matter is that I have been in the program for quite some time, but for all intensive purposes have had to start over, anonymously due to circumstances beyond my control. Unfortunately the person that was suppose to read between the lines did not and I will just have to learn to deal with it. I would apologize to everyone for dragging you into the mess, but this has become one of my daily struggles. It has consumed most of every day for months. I now realize that this is my largest obstacle that has brought me to the meetings. Not just the person, but the whole chain of events leading up to this person. My eyes have really opened up as a result of this program and general life events and it's good, but at the same time it's very depressing.
This program has helped me in all areas of my life. I am learning that just because I am in the program, or just practicing the program on my own that I am going to need this kind of feedback from time to time. More often in my 'manic' times like now. I will probably rant and rave about this and that for a few more days and then I will be fine for while.
There are so many aspects of my life that I need to work on and I don't know where to go with them. Health, relationships, family (immediate and extended), other day to day crap. If I were to sit and think about this for too long, I might think that I were creating my own obstacles. As soon as I overcome one, there's another- just as big, if not bigger. Then I wonder if I am just not being tested. The 'big guy's' way of teaching me patience and life lessons... like we need any more of those.
I am so, so tired. I am having such a hard time right now letting go and letting God. My time/energy is consumed with my crazy thoughts and other people and their issues, or nowdays their issues with me.
benedetta wrote: There are certain "veteran" members out there and there are very few of them, so please don't take offense to this if this doesn't apply to you.
I have no way of knowing if this applies to me or not. Without additional specifics, I would think... not.
Think no more about it benedetta. I know the frustration that can overtake us, and I understand. Take a few deep breaths, and know that you can let go and let God in time. Just keep with it.
With great caring, Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I find that sometimes we say the same old 'party line" when there is nothing else we can think of that would be useful to say. "Go to meetings, get a sponsor, read your CAL, work the steps...." it doesn't always seem to address the need of the moment, but it really is sometimes the only answer.
I agree with David's point - I may sometimes be better at passing on the message than I am at living it, as an imperfect vessel.
HUG)))))) to ya ((benedetta))