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I just asked my sober A, who's been sober a tad over 2 1/2 years, and he said it's not very high. I told him what you said, about 3 %, and he said that's probably right. For what it's worth...
I can only say that my A, after 25 years sober, relapsed. You wouldn't think that would happen, but since it did, it makes me believe that very, very few make it for a lifetime. If it's 3% success, that doesn't mean that 97% die from alcoholism. Cancer, heart trouble, and 18-wheelers take their toll as well. *grin* Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 19:21, 2006-12-20
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Does it really matter??? If we worry whether the alcoholic is drinking or not, we are taking the focus off our own recovery. I know from my own experience with my ex husbands recovery the rate of staying sober is low, and relapse is high.
I will say that I am glad I don't worry about that now...I just worry about making sure I am in recovery.
SenoraBob
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Higher Power doesn't always wrap presents in pretty paper.
I am with you bob , it really dosent matter anyway can't base a relationship on the % of sucess or failure. All are diff my husb was a cronic alcoholic drank 24 -7 drank to die for 2 yrs. he is sober 18 yrs now no slips . go figure I havent wasted 5 min worrying about wether he will drink again because I fianlly know that I don't have any control over him and the disease he lives with everyday. He tells me h e makes a commitiment every morning to not drink today , thats all I know. I also know that thanks to this program tht if he does choose to drink again I will be okay. Louise
Well the reason I asked, is it's occurred to me that non-alcoholics don't fare much better when it comes to breaking their emotional patterns. It's just that hard! The alcoholic goes for the alcohol and the people like us go for what we go for.
I just got thinking about this because though I am away from my A.... have a restraining order even, I still have impulse to contact him and loop around yet again! And I have to almost white knuckle it at times. It is just so easy to repeat a pattern and acknowledging how hard it is like this is helping me strive to be part of the 3%.
Whether it matters or not isn't the point. Courtesy is what counts. And frankly, I don't know how anyone can get to the point where their recovery is the only thing that matters. I think I am in the wrong place. Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 09:46, 2006-12-21
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Actually, I think it does matter. And, I think it matters greatly. Knowing the recovery rate lets us make an informed decision as to whether we wish to get involved with an addict, lets us decide whether we wish to continue being involved with an addict, and gives us understanding as to the difficulty of recovery and the prognosis.
I think that it matters. I like to have a clear picture of what I am up against. Pinning your future on a 3% chance of recovery in my opinion is a bad gamble. If you can like SBob get to the point where your own recovery is more important to you and you can live and cope with the A...Then that is great. Not all of us can do that. I see so much suffering on this board and I wonder how much could be spared if all were better informed of how very few recover and out of those how very few stay in recovery.
I agree that knowledge is power. It is good to have realistic expectations and to plan accordingly. I am fully aware that living with my A will be a lifelong struggle probably with continual relapses but he does try. Keeping all that in mind keeps me grounded and lessens my disappointment each time things go badly again and lessens my resentment toward him. All good things.
So, if the 3% is correct (and I think it would be hard to gauge that number accurately-for a lot of reasons- but anyway let's just say it is for discussion purposes -ok?)
3% - make it in a program of recovery - so some thing that maybe that might be good info in deciding if you want to be in a relationship with an A or not. So is there a sign on the A saying whether he/she is in the 97% that don't make it - how can you know that they aren't one of the ones that will make it??
As long as they are breathing there is still hope. No one can convince me other wise - Not with what I have seen in the last 3 years - not the people I have seen enter programs of recovery. These people have had multiple relapses, in their 40's & 50's and now have 3 & 4 yrs in recovery.
So, what are the %'s of marriages that succeed (no alcoholic issues involved)? That number isn't very high either. So should that affect your decision to marry? Maybe you should get married, because you might get divorced one day because a lot of other people have gotten divorced.
What is the % of people that die a car accidents? Maybe we shouldn't drive cars because we might get in a car accident. Ride in a Plane. Walk across the street.
I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should get involved in a relationship with an alcoholic/addict if they don't want to. But using a low percentage of recovery as reason not to be with someone doesn't sound like sane reasoning. There are no guarantees in life, marriage or relationships. I'm sure everyone of us knows someone who was married (or in a relationship) for years only to find out their partner was having an affair, or gay or just not in love with them any more and this had nothing to do with alcoholism.
Now, if the A's don't respect your boundaries, if your safety is affected, if your life is at stake, if your mental and emotional health is abused or if your heart can't take the pain - for me these are reasons to walk away - but not just because there is a low chance of recovery.
That is just the way I feel about percentages . . . besides aren't we dealing with people not numbers?
Ok, I'm off my "soap box"
take what you like & leave the rest -
Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
anon_user wrote: Well the reason I asked, is it's occurred to me that non-alcoholics don't fare much better when it comes to breaking their emotional patterns. It's just that hard! The alcoholic goes for the alcohol and the people like us go for what we go for.
I just got thinking about this because though I am away from my A.... have a restraining order even, I still have impulse to contact him and loop around yet again! And I have to almost white knuckle it at times. It is just so easy to repeat a pattern and acknowledging how hard it is like this is helping me strive to be part of the 3%.
I just wanted to reply to this because it is very true. I have a friend who is a healer and she's been through a lot. Her first husband was an alcoholic cop, she lost 2 sons (1 to drugs & another in a car accident), she is also a cancer survivor. But she said that people tend to have 1 of about 3 personality types and that she was a rescuer. (So am I). So we tend to get into relationships with men who are needy in some way (that's a nice way of saying that they have some serious problems). I think that maybe a lot of us who are in relationships with A's might be the same. And like alcoholism, recognizing this is the first step in changing our behavior.
With my A b/f, I go through this same crap on a daily basis - I make up my mind to end the relationship but then I don't. I think a lot of it might be the holidays - not wanting to dump him at this time of the year. But another is that I think that there might be a chance that he will change (stupid me). And I read these posts from folks who are married & hear about how much they've lost and I think to myself "What the heck is wrong with me". And reading that oly 3% of A's actually recover for a lifetime!!! Yikes.
Oh well!! I hope that everyone here has a nice holiday.
To anyone considering getting involved in a relationship with an alcoholic: does it really matter if the recovery rate is 3%, 4%, 8%, 0.3%? Your odds are far better at the blackjack table. If you enter into a relationship with an active alcoholic on the premise that it can work if/when the alcoholic gets into recovery, well... odds are, you lose.
As to an alcoholic already in recovery: same thing. It *seems* that the longer an A is in recovery, the better his chances of staying sober but everybody knows some tragic examples to the contrary.
Add to that, remember alcoholics are liars.
A few years ago, my employer hired an ex-convict who claimed to have 2.5 years of sobriety. Of course being "outed" at work, I was immediately introduced to this guy (bye bye anonymity). Well, it took about 5 minutes on-line to discover his DUI from only 3 months ago. Guy was a jerk... not like there aren't plenty of sober jerks in AA but, my boss asked me if I'd "sponsor" the guy. I laughed out loud. I didn't know what else to tell him other than, it doesn't work like that!. He eventually got fired after many absences and endless excuses. That was 3 years ago. The guy's *wife* called looking for him just a week ago - apparently he had led her to believe he was working here once again... LOL.
So... my friends know my sobriety date. I announce my anniversary, I get my coin. I'll tell people who ask. But the reality, only me and God know how long I've been sober. I think though, if I were to start drinking, I'd quit going to meetings... I wouldn't be able to do both, and if I quit going to meetings, the folks in my home group would know something was up. And so on.
If I were to meet someone via an online dating service who claimed to be a sober A, I'd take it with a grain of salt, certainly until I got to know her better. I would not get involved with an active A. Period. It might be possible for an active A to conceal it in the early casual stages of a relationship, but I think it would become evident once I got to know her better.
As a sober A, I often feel I don't have the right to get into a relationship with a non-A. Yet, using my own odds chart - clearly I have no business getting into a relationship with either an active-A or sober-A. Kind of narrows it down to zero.
I really appreciate the honesty in these replies. The point that resonated for me was the part about realistic expectations and resentments. Relapse is a part of this disease and I am working very hard at accepting that. To believe that my AH will be sober for the rest of his life is an unrealistic expectations. After all, ONE DAY AT A TIME is not only a slogan; it is a way of life for the alcoholic. If I expect forever and my AH relapses, well, I have only set myself up for a resentment. And, back on the Merry-Go-Round we go.
I certainly can identify with your feelings of panic when you originally posted....I love the purple pamphlet called, "So you love an alcoholic". If you could pick that one up at a meeting real soon, it would be in your best interest. Alcoholism is a disease, not a moral issue. If you felt it necessary to put a restraining order on him, that doesn't necessarily mean that you stop loving him.....certain things go along with loving an alcoholic.....restraining orders being just one of them. There is also:withholding sex, having more sex, breaking up, getting back together, paying the bills, not paying them, ad infinitum. The frustrating thing is that all of those methods that we have all tried have failed us miserably, and our own lives have become unmanageable. You see, you still love and miss him, even though you felt it necessary to slap a restraining order on him!
Step One: We admitted we were POWERLESS over alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable.
This is an interesting topic. Just this week I had a double winner approach me at a meeting and give me a AA Big Book study/conference on CD by Charlie F. and Joe. I really wasn't expecting it, and what the person said was "Now, this isn't going to help YOU, but it might give you some insite into what's going on with your AH."
So I've been listening the past few day and the first part of this talks about the recovery rate of AA when it first began (approx. 75% of those who came into the program) and why that was. Now I haven't listen to the whole thing, but from what I gather, it really has to do with how they work their program. (kind of like us -- we can get with the program and work it or skip over steps thinking they aren't for us or we don't need this part or that part, I think they used the words "cafeteria program" --- it's "take what you like and leave the rest" only to nth degree.)
Seeing as how I've already gotten involved with an A, and I'm here, statistics don't really matter as much as they would if I were looking at getting involved with with an A. I am powerless, and I know their sobriety is up to them. That just leaves me with me -- and trying to figure out what I want to do with this life I have.
((((Anon user)))) -- I've often thought if I had to get a chip every time I slipped in my program, I'd be able to wallpaper my home with all the chips LOL. Yes, I agree it's difficult for us, only it's life or death for them.
Sure, it matters, anything you know about their disease helps give you insight. Saying that your own recovery is all that matters is like saying "so what if your mother has cancer - you're all right".
BUT on the other hand, the more we focus on their recovery, the more we are spending energy on something we have no control over. Most of us have a tendency to spend more of ourselves on their disease than on our own health, and anything that takes us away from our main focus, which is, must be, ourselves, is working against our recovery. I think that this is what those who said "It doesn't matter" were getting at. Whether their chances of recovery are 3% or 97%, there is no point in us hanging our happiness on their sobriety. To be honest, sobriety is no bed of roses - it will not solve your problems, it will just change them.
The more we spend our energy looking honestly at what is, and deciding how best to live with that, the more likely we are to find some happiness. The future can take care of itself.
Just a couple of thoughts about why I don't focus on %s....
--there is a difference between hope and expectation. I "hope" that my AH will remain sober, but I do not "expect" it. What is the old saying about expectations being self-made resentments??
--relying on %s alone denies the possibility of the miracle of recovery. I have seen it in my own life and that of my AH. I thought that there was a 0% chance that he would achieve sobriety, but he did. I never thought that he would stay sober for a year or longer, but he has done so. The %s were against him, but the %s do not take into account all of the intangibles that worked together to bring about his sobriety. What I have learned is that I have to leave that all in the hands of my HP--I have no conrol over it. So, I pray everyday. I thank my HP for the miracle and pray that it continues and then I let it go and try to focus on my own side of the street.
--each A is different. There is no univeral truth that applies to all A in terms of his/her chance at prolonged recovery--it all depends on the individual. The only absolute is that alcoholism is a progressive disease that can be forced into remission. As with any other disease that goes into remission, there is always a chance that the disease will take hold again. And just like different drugs are effective for different people being treated for a disease, what works for one A, may not work for another. My A has to work his own program, whatever it might be, and I have to keep my nose out of it. It is not up to me to tell him what he has to do or not to do stay sober. I have no control over him or his disease. But, what works for my A may not work for your A and visa versa.
--every relationship/marriage is different and whether there is an A involved or not, relationships are tough and as has already been pointed out, many marriages fail in the absence of an addiction problem. I choose not to handicap my situation by comparing it but by trying to take it for what it is. Whenever I fall into the trap of comparing, I always come up short--I am my own worse critic and always have been. But the truth is that there are no guarantees in life. Al-Anon has taught me that that is ok and that if I can relax and take life as it comes, I can have serenity and not spend my emotional energy worrying, expecting, resenting and comparing. Some days I do a better job than others!!
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Do not be anxious about tomorrow; tomorrow will look after itself. The Bible, from Courage to Change, p.138
and got some very interesting results. One suggested that 4% success is what happens with people who try to quit on their own. Another suggested 80% success with a certain treatment, including the drug naltrexone and counseling. "Success" seems to be generally predicated on maintaining sobriety for a period of about a year, though there's some variation here.
I had previously found, but can't find again, the site of a place that I remember as being in Texas (?) that claimed quite high success rates with a program that focused heavily on certain dietary changes, believe it or not.
For me, it sounds like it boils down to: as with other reports having to do with numbers, percentages can, to an extent, be "made to" look good or bad depending on how you filter your data. More important is that, as a child of isms, I have a tendency to look for isms in my intimate relationships - so as others have said, whether or not I am with a particular A is almost immaterial. For me to get better, I MUST work on myself. Then maybe I won't feel so attracted to isms in others - and those with isms may not be as readily attracted to me.
This our LIFE. If we choose to spend it in chaos, shame on us. I love my A wife, but it is over. I see her true self since being in the program... it is selfish, self-centered, all take, no matter what the circumstance. The Merry-Go-Round of denial presents itself not once, but rather all the time. On that note, I think guys can COMPARTMENTALIZE these feelings in a different way than the gals. Nature vs Nurture... I want to focus my efforts, from here on out, on POSITIVE, SUCCESS, GROWTH, not disappointment, worry, make-sure-i-work-the-program-so-that-i-stay-sane. I want to stay sane without the program, in a relationship where I don't need a program. I'm not ashamed that right now, I need the program, and perhaps, I'll always need it, but I don't WANT to always need it.
with love cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
-- we can get with the program and work it or skip over steps thinking they aren't for us or we don't need this part or that part, I think they used the words "cafeteria program" --- it's "take what you like and leave the rest" only to nth degree.)