The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
A relationship that ends is not a failure or a punishment - it is a lesson. As long as our definition of a successful relationship is one that lasts forever - we are set up to fail. There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship that will last forever, expecting it to last forever is what is dysfunctional. Robert Burney Codenpendency Therapist~
I read this on a Codependency website on a search of "Toxic Love". I particularly got alot out of the last sentence, that it is fine to want a relationship to last forever but to expect it is dysfunctional. Looking back on my last two generations in my family the status quo was set. Get married, have children, live together for 50 or so years, and then grow old and leave this earth. One of you will leave first... I just thought that was wanting a normal life. My parents divorced when I was 12. I had so much anger and pain built up and just never wanted that for myself. Its the idea that the expectation is dysfunctional that gets me; however to expect anything from the A would probably lead to great disappointment and cause pain. So loving a partner, friend, spouse for a time until that time runs out is a healthier approach?
Send some ESH on your experiences.
Peace,
Twinmom~
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"The people who don't mind matter and the people who mind, don't matter". (Dr. Seuss)
I don't know that I agree with that at all. That an expectation of a forever lasting relationship is dysfunctional? Maybe nowdays divorce is so common that we should change the vows to I will love, honor and cherish you for as long as I feel like it? That is how it seems we as Americans act. I admire people who have long marriages and that take their vows with integrity and an expectation of forever. I know plenty that do and are in no way dysfunctional. So why bother with the vow or the marriage at all? Tax benefits then? So we could change the vows to I promise to file jointly and get a bigger refund? Because the rest of it in my opinion is just words with no meaning behind them at all.
I think what it is saying is that the relationship becomes dysfunctional when you refuse to believe it may not be forever. When you are willing to sacrifice everything you are, when you tolerate behaviors that can kill you (beating), when no matter what.... you are determined to stay and make it work. Some women have gone to an early grave believing it's forever and refusing to think otherwise.
Like the song says: You gotta know when to fold em, know when to walk away and know when to run.
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
I tend to agree with Julia. I don't think it is healthy to stay in a marriage that is destroying you (I am divorced), but I don't think it is awful to want a relationship to last until one of you dies. I personally don't want another failed marriage. I don't want to give up when I get uncomfortable, b/c in any relationship there will be bad times!!!!
I don't think it is dysfunctional to believe you can have a marriage that will last--the dysfunction comes (in my opinion) when you are willing to sacrifice yourself--give up who you are, what you believe in, endure physical and /or psychological scarring for that relationship.
I think abandonment has been the huge missing issue in my being in relationship. For me it isn't about that I want to be mistreated, expect to be mistreated or even go along with it. For me its about tolerating the feelings of abandonment that come up. For me those abandonment feelings from childhood are like dying a psychic death. I would rather do anything, put up with anything than tolerate them. I'm not sure that many people really understand that. My commitment has always been about avoiding those abandonment feelings at all costs.
That said I think after 10 plus years of therapy and moreover 1 solid year of this board my ability to tolerate and manage feelings is much much better. My feelings of rage (while they are there) are manageable and my feelings of grief around the A's many many betrayals are also manageable. For me my relationship with him has been one long replay of my chldhood. Things came up that were from my childhood that I could not deal with, sibling rivalry (in my case my elder sister tried to kill me at least twice), depresssion (major depression), sexual abuse and more. I managed to deal with those feelings, identify those triggers.
I loved the A much as I loved my parents in a dysfunctional way. I had to rescue, take care of my parents in a dysfunctional way to survive both emotionally and physicallly. I did that with the A that was how I knew how to relate. These days I relate differntly. The prospect of leaving the A is very high on my list the idea no longer devastates me. I no longer feel as enraged and grief strcken about his drug/alcohol use. Does that mean that I won't be sad I certainly will be and am. Does that mean I don't have strong feelings about him I do still.
At one time the A was the be-all and end-all of my life. Al anon gave me my life back but therapy and understanding what role the relationship had in my life helped. I am certainly not "there" yet in terms of the long haul of recovery. At the same time after one year I can see a difference.
In general I think people are begining to give up too easilly, so in that respect I am with Julia. But what happens when the relationship is not working no matter what you do. I am not saying don't try, but what if you do try?
Do you slaughter yourself because you can't live up to the "expectation" that this was forever? Do you stay in a perpetuating bad relationship in the hopes of living up to your expectations despite your needs as a person.
That is my reality right now, and today I read that statement and it makes sense to me. I don't like the idea of divorce either, I don't "expect" every day to be easy or fun. But I do think that the overall average should be something over 70% happy if everyone involved is even attempting to work together.
As my percentage of days that truly suck stuggled up in the 70% range I was falling into that dysfunctional category.
Great mind bender for this morning. Hang in there girl, you are doing great!
Take care of you!
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"Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement" - unknown
Hey Julia - it most cases single people pay less taxes than married people - once you combined the two incomes it causes the household to go into a higher income bracket which is taxed at a higher rate.
So marrying for the tax breaks are definitely not the reason. Just a little side humor from your friendly tax preparer.
Back to the expectations of a happy relationship for a long time - Yes, I have expections that my AH & I will spend the rest of our lives together. I make plans for that life. But for my safety & sanity - my entire world is not wrapped up in that expectation. I do not demand that life give me what I want. I know that there are possibilities that life may through me a few curves along the way. I can trust that whatever those curves may be I can still make it through life - it may not be the way I expected it to be, but it will be ok.
I found for me it is ok to have expections, plans and dreams - just not to predict the outcome of those events. To just trust in my HP.
That is what is working for me today - only my HP knows about tomorrow.
Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
You all have made such great points. When I read this it left me in a quandry; because I don't really know anyone who comes into marriage with the thought that this will only last for a short while. Even the marriage vows say until death do us part. I do agree with Christy that once the relationship has sunk into a cycle of abuse/neglect where we are compromising ourselves to point of exhaustion that is dysfunction. I don't believe HP intends that dysfunction in a marriage. It would be foolish and naive to believe that everyone enters marriage and "forever" without bagage or some dysfunction in their lives. I believe if two people can work on their own issues for the greater good of themselves and the marriage that is what makes it stick. After coming into Alanon with so many of my expectations and dreams stomped on I began saying I will cherish these times for however long forever is; because from day to day things could change in my life. I feel much better today about me and the stability I have. Things still change with the A because that is his choice and some of those changes affect me.
I feel like without some positive expectations and hopes in my life and my relationship I'm just kind of floundering with no sense of purpose or direction. If that makes sense. Thanks so much for the ESH.
Twinmom~
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"The people who don't mind matter and the people who mind, don't matter". (Dr. Seuss)
Keep in mind that the whole field of "codependency" is a psuedo science.
It is essence "made up" by Melody Beattie who has never even been to college and is MUCH LESS a psychologist or psychological researcher. She simply wrote a book about her PERSONAL observations and people who where hurting embraced it and it has taken on a life of its own.
Even a few serious psychologist, have accepted the theory and will "treat" people for "codependency". However, it is still not accepted as a diagnosis in itself and people are only "diagnosed' with codependency as a secondary manifestation of REAL mental or emotional problems. No insurance company currently covers "codependency" as a viable diagnosable illness as a stand alone "illness".
Keep this in mind when you read websites about this supposed diagnosis. You don't know who is writing them, or what their credentials are, they could be a crackpot, and idiot, or a bitter and emotionally or mentally ill person who is incapable of any real emotional intimacy and so sees the world in a bitter and negative light.
There is nothing wrong with wanting and expecting a relationship to last forver, that is actually a sign of emotional health. The problem comes when, as others have mentioned, you become so obsessed with the idea that you close your eyes to reality and become determined to FORCE someone else to live up to your ideal.
You also have to pick your partner carefully if you want a long lasting relationship. Choosing someone with a string of broken relationships is probably not the best person to expect to have "forever' with.
Marrying someone who has been married and divorced 10 times and expecting that with you it WILL be different for sure probably is not very logical.
However, expecting forever with a partner you choose carefully, who is compatibel with you in most ways, and whom seems capable of long term monogamy is natural, realistic, and a sign of emotional health. Just be prepared to change your long term view if the SITUATION changes.
Actually I have always gotten a bigger refund when we file separately single head of household...
I think the whole point of this is expectations like I said in the post earlier about how it sucks that we have to deal with accepting that we can never rely on someone. This goes hand in hand with that I think.
Gotta love Kenny Rogers I chose run personally!
I agree with the statement what's the point of getting married anyway? You don't have to marry someone to love them and be with them and all marriage seems to do is make it more difficult to do the things you want to do (like leave) and cause you financial hardship (like the above mentioned taxation status and joint credit ventures gone awry).
Just my personal opinion, but I'm not highly religious so marriage to me is more of a legal issue than a biblical or religious issue.
someone once told me that "til death do us part" does not always mean literally physical death. " There can be " death of a relationship" . It takes 2 people to have a relationship, if one is the only one participating there is no longer a real relationship. I believe that often one spouse has to carry the relationship for awhile. But if "forever " seems you are the only person carrying the relationship, it's time time to start accepting it's death & go on. Search your heart to see if there is hope left. Carol
"There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship that will last forever, expecting it to last forever is what is dysfunctional." Robert Burney Codenpendency Therapist~
I don't agree with this man at all. What's dysfunctional about expecting a relationship to last forever? Wishful thinking maybe, but dysfunctional? No. Nonsense examples like this are exactly what put me off therapists.
Oh well, Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
