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I have considered the slogan, "Say what you mean, but don't say it mean." Aside from the fact that I have difficulty with the incorrect grammar of that one, I wonder; why can't we say it "mean?" If I were not angry at the time, I would say nothing at all. This slogan encourages us to stifle any anger we may feel AND to which we are entitled, so that the A doesn't have to deal with our outrage. Is it helping me to keep it all bottled up inside? I don't think so. Stifled feelings can result in heart attacks and/or strokes.
"Don't be mean to the poor, struggling alcoholic," seems an impossible request. How do YOU handle this one? Tell the truth now.....
Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 12:16, 2006-10-24
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
For me, Diva, it is all about my aproach in the way I word my arguement. It's not that I can't express my feelings - it is just that I express them in a way that still allows the person and myself to maintain our dignity. Even if the other person has not really acted in a manner to me that I feel deserves dignity, I still want to walk away being the bigger person. It helps me sleep better at night.
For instance - instead of saying "You rude insensative jerk" I may say " I feel that you were being rude and insensative to my views of the situation, and I don't appreciate that." There is no name calling and I don't have to make amends at a later date for reacting on my feelings - I have voiced my feelings in a respectful manner.
Now, do I do this all the time - No way - I still struggle with controlling my anger level. But I don't feel guilty when I can control my anger and voice my feelings in a calm manner. I feel much more in control of the situation rather than letting my emotions control me. It has been a process for me - I know that my opinions get a lot more respect when I voice it in that calm manner than in the pre-recovery manner of name calling, yelling and pointing the finger like I did before.
That's just what works for me -
Good topic - can't wait to read how others handle it,
Thanks,
Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
Ever heard that saying attack the problem not the person? I know there are lots of times that I feel like I'm being mean when really I'm just telling it like it is. Sometimes the truth hurts, but that doesn't mean that you're being mean by saying it.
To me, saying it mean just pushes me down into the hole with the A. If I don't climb into that hole with the A then at least one of us isn't down there and one of us can grow. I agree with Rita, if I don't say something mean then I don't have something to make amends for later on.
I like to use the phrase "You know you just might be right, but I'll have to think about it and get back to you if I feel it deserves a response" and walk away from an argument. This gives me an exit and in most cases leaves the A speechless while I make the exit. It also helps me stay out of the hole.
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Everything I have ever let go of has claw marks all over it.
To me the slogan isnt about containing any anger. If you are angry, hurt...whatever...let it out!
I guess what it does mean to me is to express it in a way that I wont regret later. Expressing my displeasure with something someone has done is certainly something I can do, and I can even do it emotionally. But I don't want to let my anger/emotion drop me down to a level where I am saying or doing irrational things just to be mean or to "get back" at the other person. If I call someone an ugly name out of anger, or sheese lets say I even got into a physcial confrontation with someone. I know that even if my actions were justified in some way, I would feel horrible about MY OWN actions later.
That slogan also applies for me when there isnt even a drama unfolding. If I am discussing something with someone regarding boundaries or whatever, I especially at a time like that, need to be mindful of saying things as gently and considerately as possible so as not to provoke an argument or unnecessarily cause hurt feelings.
Anyway, thanks for the topic! Thought provoking as always my friend!
Interesting thought. There are certainly times when I am angry with my AW and want to let go with a mean response. I have found that my best response (when she is drinking and being stupid) is either no response or just agreeing with everything she says. Nothing I have ever said to her when she is drinking has any effect anyway, so why bother yelling or screaming or saying derogitory things about her or her A'ism. When she is sober I have very little to complain about or to get angry about other than I know that she is going to drink again. I cannot say that I don't get mad at her, I do. I just don't take it out on her when she is drinking because I know she will probably not remember a thing I say or do anyway - but I will - and I don't like myself very much If I let myself lose control.
I had a conflict with this at one time, I came up with some basic rules for myself that I could be proud of. I had been silent about my anger, or the opposite blowing up and not getting my feelings across.
No name calling. No swearing or as little as possible. Only the topic I am concerned, angry or have a problem with, nothing from the past. Wording that lets me express myself without feeling guilty afterwards. Say it once and it is done.
Sometimes I want to be mean, it is when I am hurting so bad it feels like the only way i can feel better is to hurt my A. Score a point in the debate ... it just never helped me feel better for long.
Hello Diva , you can say it as mean as u like , but I bet it dosent make u feel good when u do. there is more to that statement . Say what u mean , Mean what u say but don't be mean when u say it.
there is alittle quote from our litterature that I try to remember .
THE SHARPEST WEAPON TO BRING TO A FIGHT IS OUR TOUNGE.
and I have been there done that way to many times , for me it only made things worse. I remember how I felt when the alcoholic hurled his insanity at me durring the drinking years and can only imagine how my stuff made him feel .
At times I have found it extremly hard not to ba a mean bitch towards the a...that is the truth....alot of times I found I could ignore it, ignore him.....but, trying to say something to an A thatis just been eating away at you how do you not say that mean....and mean what you say.....because after all, we have to express ourselves or die inside...and for me I would rather live......
Diva, I too have wondered about that slogan. It doesn't feel like a real alanon slogan to me = it's too gimmicky. Is it a real slogan in CAL? As others have said, I've found it a worthwhile challenge to behave in a manner that allows me to feel good about myself. Sometimes that means standing up for myself and it can sound mean. If saying it leaves me better than before, I'm for it. If not, I hope I stay quiet (but I don't always). That's my intention, and I'm making progress. Thanks for bringing it up. ---- Jill
I guess for me, I will say, "Ya know,if I feel I am being disrespected and one of my boundaries is i want to be respected, if someone does not give me that, then I won't be around them."
Instead of,"You freaking jerk, what do you mean I never cook for you, I never clean the house? You are out of your freaking mind!"
To be mean, to me is saying, I am giving the A what they want, I am acting just as immature and unreasonable as they are. I am allowing the disease to control me.
Just my thoughts Diva. I just have no desire to be mean to anyone, especially my A. It actually makes him feel worse when I don't yell or say things to hurt him back.
I have read and reread all of your answers, and I must say, they all have essentially the same thread running through them. The consensus is that being "mean" accomplishes nothing, and that none of you really want to sink to the level of meanness that you have experienced from your A. Have you ever considered why you feel that way? It that something AlAnon has taught you? If I refer to my A as a "drunken, insensitive jerk," that may sound mean, But it does get it said with a minimum of words, and does not necessarily make me a bitch. But then, I know that I am not a bitch, and you do not. Sometimes, being totally honest, even if the words sound harsh, is just what the soul needs; fight back and go on you could say.
But the truth is that I do not say anything about anything to my A when he is drinking. When he is not drinking, we get along famously, so there is no reason to be mean. I direct all my meanness at a full-running, hot shower. There I can curse, carry on and say all the things that have been crowding my peace. He doesn't hear it, and all is well. That is unless he decides to get into the shower with me...ahem...that's another story...
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
for me, diva, I have never wanted to hurt anyone else on purpose.
now this is me, ok? My goal is to follow what Jesus says in the Bible. He is my mentor. If someone said something mean to him, he turned the other cheak and ignored him.
He got mad one time, when they were doing money changing in the temple. But that was not mean.
He did not take sides, he was neutral.
I have never been competetive either.
When someone is mean to me, at first I am very hurt. Then I get very mad and I really think about it. Then I face them and let them know I did not deserve whatever, and that is that. I turn my back and I never talk to them again.
If my a ever did or said anything mean to me, I would have never married him.
Next thing i know he is not him anymore. I kicked him out so many times. Just said there's the door, get out. He would cont. with his crap, theres the door get out.
I would not allow him to draw me in. Now at one point, before alanon I lost my temper but just threw things. two times. I did not like how it made me feel. did not help. Just gave him something to throw back in my face.
As you know I also struggle with understanding the usefulness of alanon slogans. Since so many people seem to be enamored of them, I do try...
I think this one "say what you mean but don't say it mean" is one of the "good ones" although painfully simplistic, LOL.
I think people gave some really good answers and I agree with the majority of them. But I think I will add a little...
To understand this statement you must quantify the meaning of "mean". To me being "mean" is simply being hateful, saying things just for the purpose of hurting others. Saying something that may be true, like someone is overweight, in a way that is PURPOSELY hurtful, like "you are an ugly fat cow" rather than saying something truthful and maybe hurtful, but still honest like "I am worried about your health with that extra weight you are carrying".
Sadly to some people being honest is being "mean".
The truth hurts sometimes...but being truthful in a manner that is simply an honest expressions of legitimate feelings is NOT being mean! Meanness is purposeful.
So to me, saying what I mean (being honest) but NOT saying it "mean" means that I will think about the purpose of what I am saying. Although truthful, is it simply lashing out in anger? Or is it just an honest expression of legitimate emotions?
In other words...will my honest expression really convey any real emotions so that someone understands how I feel? Or is it just lashing out in hurt (even though totally true)?
For me being honest in a good way was telling my husband he was a selfish jerk when he refused to help get our daughter to her doctor when we only had one car. Although some people would have a problem with that. It shamed him into helping since it was simply an honest expression of normal emotions, it was not meant to lash out.
For me, an example of "saying it mean" was when I told him he should be ashamed of himself for "perpetuating the stereotype" of native americans by being such a lowlife drunk drinking malt liqour. This was TOTALLY true...but still mean and accomplished nothing but to make him mad. People like to see themselves as individuals, not representatives of an entire group of people...although that IS how society sees them many times.
I do agree in honest expressions of emotions, but in a very calculated way. Otherwise your expressions of feelings quickly turn into screaming matches of rage.
I like the way David said it...that he tries to behave in a way that upon relfection, he won't feel ashamed and regret it. I totally agree. I try to be honest, but know it is not necessarily helpful to be honest about EVERYTHING. I also live by what Rita said about expressing myself in a way that allows myself and others to maintain and keep their dignity. After living with my chronic active A husband for 13 years I could certainly deliver some WELL DESERVED low blows and cheap shots when I am angry and he is being a jerk, but I don't believe in treating others this way. It would cheapen me to sink to such a level, and also him to humiliate him.
For me I have found changing my perspective to be the key. I don't stuff my emotions, and I don't squelch them. I simply consider the source, sort of distance myself from the situation. I realize that my husband is really NOT lashing out at me, he has lost control of his faculties due to being mentally ill and drunk. I "humor" him like I would a mental patient, or ignore him. I am just an innocent bystander. Yes this is difficult many times, and this distancing myself has taken a serious toll on our marriage, but that is the effect of his alcholism.
When his outbursts get too personal I DO stand up for myself and can be very effective. When he was doing his online porn I called him a pervert and told him that he was never to badmouth my ex husband again as he was as big of a creep as he is. I told him that there was a very fine line between them and I felt sick to realize that. I HAD to express that and did. And, once again, I DON'T regret it! It needed to be said. Now to bring this up again and again and say it over and over...well that would be "mean". It has been said...
Sometimes I like you wonder what my husband would be like if I dished out the emotional and verbal abuse he dishes out to me, LOL. But that is as far as it goes, just fanciful thoughts. I really DON'T want to be a raging monstor seething with rage that everyone avoids and thinks is nuts. I rather value my calm and serene reputation, LOL.
Many older friends that I have tell me that I am laid back to a fault. I rarely put up a fuss about ANYTHING. Husband can drunk drive on the wrong side of the road and I roll my eyes and tap my fingers waiting for him to notice something is wrong...until another car starts coming, LOL and then I calmly say "do you notice somethign amiss about those headlights coming towards you?". Maybe they are right! LOL!
Anyway...I would rather be me, learnign to control my mouth, than him. He does not have any friends...I do, LOL.
There have been many times when I've been called "the terminator" because I have the ability (someone once called it a gift ) to bring people to their knees when I want to. I used to be proud of that many, many years ago, until someone did the same to me. It didn't feel very good. Ironically enough it was hubby way back before we married and were still in college.
I recall some arguments with him when he was drinking (yeah that was smart on my part) and he and I both said some things that were cruel. I was angry. In truth it felt good to get it out. But I'm also one who really doesn't like to argue. Anger has its place and there's a place for it to be released. I think I feel better when I release it at the gym. I'm working on trying to say what I mean much more clearly but without being mean. But sometimes my old Russian-Filipino temper gets the better of me. When it does, hit the deck. Oh well I'm human.
Love and blessings to you and the family. Kiss the critters for me!
Live strong,
Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
I have spent most of my lifetime protecting the feelings of others in what I say. I think I might be in the running for Guiness book of records "most inoffensive and considerate person" in how I have conducted my personal relationships for most of my life. I appreciate this board as an outlet to express my feelings in a constructive way.
I regret how I have been in everyday life. A lot of truth was lost that way.
I am not saying I have never been mean, I am by no means a saint. However most of the people in my alcoholic and drug-addict ridden family have no problem saying a lot and saying it mean. Some of what they say is true; most of it has been said family member's particular warped opinion given in a nasty manner.
I once told someone in my family that just because a thought occurred to her, she did not have to say it out loud, especially if it was mean. She told me no one was going to keep her from speaking the "truth." Well, very often the truth is in the eye of the beholder and what I heard this person saying was she was going to say anything she wanted, however she wanted to say it, and with no regard for whether or not it was mean. I don't agree with her take on the "truth"
Sometimes we are going to get angry, it's inevitable. We might say things in a way that is not only mean, but it also will lead to the opposite effect that we want. The person we are speaking to will dig their heels in. We can try to do better, we can regret being "mean," but we also have to accept being human.
) to bring people to their knees when I want to. I used to be proud of that many, many years ago, until someone did the same to me. It didn't feel very good. Ironically enough it was hubby way back before we married and were still in college.