There have been times when I have wanted to throw the whole concept of Aism as a disease at my A's head!!  BUT, then I think about when he was active and how, for the first time in my life, I finally "got it"--I finally understood what it meant to look in someone's eyes and realize that the person that you know (and maybe love) is NOT in there--it is a different person.

Another thing that helps me is to remember a saying that I was raised with: hate the sin, not the sinner.  I do not believe that Al-Anon asks us to accept the "sin" (the unacceptable behavior).  I do think that the program asks us to accept the A as a human being afflicted with a disease that he/she may/may not be able to control.  Al-Anon also empowers us to realize that we do have a choice--live with the reality of that disease on a daily basis or chose to separate ourselves (either physically or by detaching within the relationship) and live our lives regardless of the strength of the hold that the disease has over the A at any given time.

Also, when I am really having a hard time with the disease concept, I have been going to open AA meetings--there is a meeting site less than 5 minutes from work that runs meetings all day long.  It is a pretty rough and ragged place, but when I sit in that room and listen to folks share about trying to hang on to 1 or 2 or 3 days of sobriety--THIS TIME--and how alcohol has controlled their lives and led them to the darkest places you can think of, it helps me accept that no one would choose to be an A--no high is worth it and all it does is cost them everything, including their souls (if not their lives) in the end.

My A has done some terrible, terrible things to those around him (including me).  But with the help of this program, my sponser, AA, and my HP, I now know--and believe--that had he been in his right mind, my A would not have done those things.  That is not an excuse, it is a reality.  If it were an excuse, AA would not address the need for making amends and doing so on a daily basis.

Finally, I also finally understand that my A has a disease that, with the help of AA and his HP, is in remission and that if he picks up again, that stranger will return at some point.  Unlike in years past, I am now armed with KNOWLEDGE to deal with that if it happens and I can make an informed decision to stay or go--with the support of my fellow Al-Anons and my HP.

I hope everyone has a peaceful day!! 

Hello, Diva--

Please let me start off by saying that I love reading your posts.  You are so articulate and wise and obviously working your own program extremely well.  I hope to someday be in the same place as you and several others here some day.

I read this earlier, after you had posted it and my wheels have been furiously spinning ever since.  I feel compelled to respond to this one, although I'm not positive why the sudden sense of urgency.  I don't reply to very many posts because I doubt my own thought process and I feel as if I give off the impression of being a complete dolt.  But anyway....

I recall reading a post the other day that has adhered itself to my brain.  I don't remember the author of the post; that's likely not as important as the thoughts the post provoked.  There was a line in it that went something like this (Not an exact quote) 'I don't understand how anyone can stand for being called a 'whore'.  If it were me, I'd have been out of there.'  Again, not a direct quote, but very close to the point.

That post, along with this one of yours, has evoked some painful, disturbing revelations about myself and my entire life.  I must say, I harbor no pride over what I'm revealing; in fact, it sickens me to realize the truth of what I'm uncovering about myself.

I grew up in an alcoholic home.  My father was the most abusive--in every sense of the word.  There wasn't a single avenue of abuse he didn't explore and practice.  I won't detail it; it hurts very deeply to even think about.  I honestly don't think I'm emotionally equipped to analyze any of it.  I learned as a child to put it all in a locked drawer somewhere in my mind.  Occassionally, it opens up enough to release a small amount of the anger, fear, and helplessness.  It doesn't stay open for long because the scars are too deep and still very raw.  I was taught that I was unworthy of life, love, and a myriad of other things. I was called every filthy, degrading word ever heard, and probably more.  I have yet to figure out how a seven year old can be considered a 'whore'??  It wasn't only me; my mother was caught up in it, as were my brother and my sister.  I really don't want to drown myself in pity, so please forgive me if I do.  In a nutshell, my childhood wasn't a happy one.  When I was of age to get a job, support myself and move out, I thought the world was open to me.   Technically, it was, but I was unaware of it.

As we all know, most of us who grow up in circumstances like this, unconsciously attract people with addictions.  Why?  In my own case, I couldn't tell you, as I don't know the answer.  I always swore to myself I wouldn't end up with an alcoholic.  It certainly wasn't a life I wanted to repeat or continue.  My husband wasn't an active A when we met and subsequently married. It was only after ten years that his addiction took hold.  He had always been a social drinker, but I never perceived him to be an alcoholic.  In the ensuing years of his alcoholism, I have discovered him to be abusive also. He's not physically abusive, not sexually abusive, but the verbal and emotion abuse is evident, even if not on a regular basis.  My husband has called me a 'whore' and several other things that don't bear repeating.  I've NEVER questioned myself as to why I accept this behavior.  No, I'm not a whore.  I don't merit that label from him.  Yes, it bothers me greatly when I have to listen to his diatribes and deal with the emotional fall out later.  I am guilty of blaming it on the disease, rather than the man.  I have no excuse for that, other than that's what I know; what I'm familiar with.

I realize I'm not conveying the message I originally intended and I apologize profusely for that.  I suppose I've been looking at myself a little more critically and honestly loathing what I'm seeing. I'm so confused and overwhelmed with his alcoholism and the effects it has on myself and my children, that I cannot yet believe there is light at the end of the tunnel, much less SEE the light at the end of the tunnel.  The one and only boundary that I have been able to set--and this was set in place in the early days of his alcoholism--is that I would NOT tolerate physical abuse in any form.  That goes for myself and my kids.  He's not a physically violent personality, so maybe I felt safe setting that boundary, feeling secure that I would never have to come up against it.  I don't know.  Again, the whirlwind of thoughts that clutter up my head are confounding.  I try to be courageous and it turns out I'm a coward to the highest degree.

I didn't wish this life for myself and it shreds my heart to know that my children are living this.  His drunken tirades are far and few between; I'm not trying to paint a portrait of daily verbal abuse; it's occassional.  I'm realizing that I'm excusing him, even now.  Amazingly pathetic, isn't it?

I'm starting to get carried away here and I don't want to do that.  I only wanted to possibly shed a little light on why some of us tolerate more than others would.  Of course, this is only applicable to myself.  I'm gaining knowledge I didn't have before, thanks to this website and everyone on it.  I see now how I have chosen--albeit unknowingly--to live the alcoholic life I always have; I know nothing else.  That's the only excuse I can offer to anyone for why I allow what I do--I know no different.

I hope some of this was coherent enough to make a little sense.  I very much apologize if it didn't.  Thank you, Diva, for making me look at myself a little more closely.  Thank you for being such an inspiration.

Diva wrote:

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about some tenets of AlAnon. Most pointedly that we need to remember the "alcohol is speaking." Is it really a teaching of Al Anon that we should dismiss any unkind, deceitful, hateful talk the "disease" talks, blaming it on the "disease", and excusing it for that reason? I don't quite get this premise. My A doesn't speak disrespectfully to me even when he is drunk. That doesn't mean he isn't a jerk, but he is not a disrespectful, filthy jerk. So many of us stand by accepting all manner of abuse because it's the "disease" talking. ...

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Hi Diva (love your posts, they are always thought provoking)

I don't look at the "its the alcohol speaking" in the way you describe up there.  Before I found AlAnon, there wasn't a week that would go by that hubby and I didn't end up in arguments 2, 3, sometimes more nights per week.  And yes, the verbal abuse from him would fly.  That verbal abuse sure did a number on me, on my self-esteem.  I could go from crying thinking I "wasn't worthy" to being super angry and lashing back.  One night he grabbed my shirt because I started to walk away.  I yelled "take your hands off me" (which he immediately did) and I called the police out.  You know what the officer said to me as we stood alone outside?  "You allow it."  Those 3 words hit me like a ton of bricks.  I looked up AlAnon the next day.

There are phrases I heard in here.  "its the alcohol speaking" just reminded me to not take what he said personally.  This helped to heal my self-esteem.  "we don't have to accept unacceptable behavior" taught me that I had the right, the choice, to walk away and not listen to these verbal tirades.  "we teach others how to treat us" taught me to stand up for myself, to have respect for myself, to speak calmly and in a nice manner to others and to expect the same for myself. 

As I learned to put these "tools" into practice, things changed.  It will be 3 years come November 1st that I will have been in AlAnon.  I can count on one hand the times verbal abuse has flown since then.  He has learned I will not tolerate it, I will not excuse it.  His respect for me has grown immeasurably.  He is learning to treat me in a different way, a better way.  When we have disagreements now, we don't yell and scream, we sit and discuss things out in a respectful manner.  Sometimes his point is valid, sometimes mine is, sometimes we find a compromise between the two is best.  I rather enjoy these adult discussions *grin*  (I used to feel like a child being chastised, like my opinion didn't count.) 

AlAnon has helped me to "grow up" and really look at so many things in a whole new way.  There were a lot of things I couldn't "see" prior to AlAnon.  Working the steps and taking a look within myself is making me aware of why I have reacted/acted the way I have.  It's shown me how I want to be, how I don't want to be.  What I need to change.  And as I change, how others treat me changes too, well that doesn't always happen but now I know how to walk away and not accept treatment from others that isn't respectful.  The relationships that matter, my immediate family relationships have changed. 

Thanks for the topic (((((Diva))))))).  You're awesome!

Luv, Kis

(((((((((((((Diva))))))))))))),

Your thinking isn't faulty! Your post are always challenging and thought provoking to say the least.  I should have your brain.

To me, when I say "it was the alcohol talking"  it is a way of explaining the behavior, not justifying or excusing it.  I know my husband sober, and he would never in a million years speak or behave to me that way when he was sober.  The reason I cut him loose for a while was because I wasn't going to put up with his drunken behavior anymore.  He could have burned the house down, remember? I had reached my limit.

Now that he is sober, that behavior is gone.  Yes there are very brief moments when "the dry drunk syndrome" rears its ugly head.  But I just tell him that isn't acceptable.  The same way couples do in every day life. 

If recovery means anything, it means taking back our lives and living the life that we want.  We all deserve and are entitled to a happy, healthy life. For me that means, not living with an active A, and now not living with a "dry drunk".  I'm sorry this sounds selfish, especially the latter because he is sober.  But I know in my heart, that I would not put up with the abuse that I have seen some of my friends put up with now that their spouses are sober.  I am not taking their inventory.  It's their choice.  But for me, living with someone who is emotionally abusive is not acceptable either. 

I don't think that Alanon has taught me this.  I've never been able to put up with someone who is either emotionally or physically abusive.  I've taught too many classes on it.  I've seen first hand what damage can be done by both types.  Alanon did teach me how to set boundaries and stick with them. For that I am grateful.

As for the physical aspect of this disease.  I absolutely believe that it is a disease.  His brain is addicted to alcohol. If he drinks, he dies.  Bottom line.  The doctors have told him so.  He is allergic to alcohol. There is something in his brain in which he craves it.  But he now knows that it is his choice to drink or not.  The former choice results in death.  The latter results in living.  I think like many diseases, it depends on how far you have progressed in this disease.  When you get the young addicts (not neccessarily in age, but ones who have not been active for long) into recovery they have a greater chance to live than the ones who's disease has progressed further along, because their bodies are not as beat up or abused. I'm not saying that for a long time addict that recovery isn't possible.  But the physical damage and the complications are greater.

As always, thank you for posting dear friend.

Love and blessings to you and your family, and all your critters!

Live strong,

Karilynn & Pipers Kitty

I had to give your post some time before I could find exactly what it was that struck me when I read it. It felt so familiar to me, all the thoughts stirred around in my head before I could really formulate what it meant to me.

You remind me of all the questions I ask myself about my qualifier. Why was it ok for that bottle of booze to be the excuse for all the injustices suffered by myself and my siblings. I have found myself again angry as an adult with explanations that "I can't remember" and "I was drunk" It felt to me like my qualifier didn't even believe it had happened. What I know is that my qualifier has been devastated by a disease and there are things that happened that may be too difficult to be seen yet. That doesn't mean that I don't occassionally get bent and frustrated that I am not being acknowledged for all that happened and in some small ways continues to happen today. I ask myself then.. since you are the Diva of questions :O) What am I really losing if I detach from those that attempt to steal my Joy??