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Last night in my F/F someone brought up something about Shame. He said that so many of us feel shame and the alcoholic's shame can often lead to more drinking to cover up that emotion. I have thought about my own shameful feelings, but I'm struggling with how I might have directed shame towards my "a". In so many ways I think I blamed him for all the problems we were having. I would think, if he wasn't so selfish and self-absorbed maybe I'd feel more important, then maybe I would feel better about me. Today I realize that he is self centered, he has not learned the gift of compassion for others, partly I understand that he does not allow that trait to be developed because he is usually focusing on his needs. I am responsible for taking care of my needs and making myself feel better. I shamed and blamed him for the money problems, for being unable to keep a job, for the fights we had.
I am I on the right track of understanding "shame" as it applies to an "a"? Am I ashamed of anything I have done? I'm ashamed of yelling, screaming, telling him aweful things. I felt ashamed when I would say "no" to him and I'd allow him to talk me into doing something I didn't really want to do. Standing up for my boundaries was difficult because he is such a good manipulator. I naturally want to please him to keep the peace, but also because of fear that he would stop loving me because I refuse to "help" him. I see now that I wasn't really helping him, I was enabling him and prolonging him from any lessons needing to be learned to aide in recovery. Today I am searching for ways that I still enable, rescue, or fix that keeps him dependent on me and keeps him from taking responsibility for his own life.
Can anyone share some ESH with me on their views about shame? Thanks
Twinmom~
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"The people who don't mind matter and the people who mind, don't matter". (Dr. Seuss)
I myself am ashamed that I allowed myself to become so resentful of my A's drinking that I set aside all my household duties and let things pile up. I became spiteful and said to myself, if he can sit around and drink, I can sit around and be a slob. Now that I have left my husband, I have to go back to the house and clean up the mess anyway. It is easier cleaning without all the furniture around, but I can't believe that I allowed our family to live that way. I have heard addicts talk about there houses when they came home from treatment and I suspect mine was as bad. I just didn't care, I was miserable, but that was a terrible example for my boys.
Josey
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Julianne - It's best to move on. You cannot look back in anger in life. It's too short
Shame and guilt are two of the things that let the disease get such a tight hold on an A.
That is one of the ways that focusing on ourselves can sometimes help. By flipping out and focusing our attention on their drinking and trying to make them feel guilty for the things they are not doing, we are in fact feeding the disease. We are giving them a reason to drink. The confusing thing is that they don't need a reason, but we give them one, and therefore justify the drinking. (In their minds).
That isn't saying that we are responsible for their drinking. We aren't, they will drink no matter what. But by allowing ourselves to be shrewish and pouring guilt on them, causing shame, to them. We are allowing them to say, "look, she is such a bitch, that is why I drink."
It isn't true, just like most things involved in their drinking aren't true, but to them it is. By focusing on ourslves and doing the things we need to do. We take that excuse away from them. They will replace it with another, or make themselves believe we did things we didn't do anyway. My husband loves to say I started things, I created a problem by screaming at him and being a bitch. I might not have been in the house or opened my mouth, but he will still try and use it as an excuse. If I waste my time trying to make him see I didn't, he will then say I must have thought about it. Now he is a mind reader. The result is still the same, but I know I didn't do anything. For me, I know my side of the street is clean. He can do what he wants and will, but I know I wasn't a part of it.
The shame issue isn't about him. He will find another thing to cause him enough shame or guilt to drink, or he will just say you did something you didn't. Dealing with this is more for you. At least you know you didn't contribute, you can face the delusions, knowing that they are just that.
Nothing might change, but the ree is always a chance wthat without someone to play the gam,e with, they may stop playing it alone. It is a slim chance but still a chance.
Set your own boundaries. Practicce compassion and detach with love, because it is better for you. Don't worry about its effect on him. He can and will always find another excuse, until he is ready to accept the responsibility himslef and do something about it.
This is a good topic Twinmom. I too am dealing with shame at the moment. My STBX spouse and I were both selfish. He with his drinking and me with rewarding myself for putting up with him and his drinking.
Through all this it has been a real eyeopener about my family and unfortunately how self centered and lacking in compassion they are. Does anyone think selfcenteredness and a lack of compassion go hand in hand?
I do not want to be self centered and am so grateful for my eyes beginning to be opened a bit. Even with all the hurt, anger and shame that goes with the realization of the same about myself and my family.
My stbx was generous with himself to others almost to a fault in my opinion. He neglected his own home and family to help others. I thought since I did not provide approval of him due to my anger about his drinking he sought approval from others.
Thank you for this topic, twinmom. Learning about my shame and the role it has played in my life has been a major part of my recovery. I learned that shame is something that I grew up with as a child. Shame is a great way to control children, and in my alcoholic home, that's the way it was! The problem with it for me is that I carried it into my dealings as I grew up - naturally - and it affected my choice of partners. Our society is shame-based, too. Shame tells me there is something inherently wrong with me - not just that I made a mistake. For a long time I thought that when someone passes on shame, they sort of "slime" the other person with shame. In other words, it's more about who they are than doing something to purposely manipulate. Shame gets in the way of my feeling my feelings clearly. For years, I thought I was so shy. Now I see that, although I am an introvert, and that I process things differently because of my introversion, there is nothing wrong with that. As I get older I have let go of a lot of the shame, and I am actually a lot more comfortable with new people and in crowds. Sometimes I think we don't talk enough about shame in the Program, but shame is a major part of the diseases of alcoholism and co-dependence. John Bradshaw, who used to be real popular in the recovery movement, maybe 20 years ago, has written and spoken a lot about shame. You can find his books on Amazon, I'm sure. My sponsor and I were talking about shame just the other day. She was saying that as a parent, when she learned about her own shame and didn't want to use shame to raise her children, she had a hard time letting go of that way of handling her kids, because she didn't know another way. She said she learned that shaming kids works, and when you don't want to do it that way, it takes a lot of work on her part! Thanks so much for sharing. Blessings, mebjk
Like the others, I also think Shame is a great subject. .
When I did my 5th step, reviewing my 4th step inventory with my sponsor, I found that I had tons and tons of shame and guilt. And most of it was false guilt. I felt shame and guilt for things that were not real. I also had to let go of the shame and guilt I had for actions and behaviors that I had prior to recovery. Accepting that I did the best I could at the time with the limited knowledge I had was very freeing. My continual amend to myself - is to try to make healthier decisions, not react to unhealthy behavior, and to continue my recovery ODAT.
This helped me deal with the shame and guilt. . hope it helps you,
Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
Shame...came be a strong emotion just as guilt can be...
For me I evaluated myself did I do or say something to feel a shamed off.
There has bin times I carried this burden.
working the steps helped me,for if I did say or do something to be ashamed of I go to the steps and work thru making amends.
With that amends I learned I too needed to forgive myself,for I tend to beat me up often.
This reminds me of guilt,shame is close to that emotion to me.
I again ask my self is this false gulit or real guilt?
Did I intestionaly try to hurt another?
Again like shame forgive myself and amends where needed.
To me each step has an anwer,to guide me to healing,working the program in my life opened many doors to things I thought I owned to be a shamed of.
Guilt feelings as well.
to me when I idenify with the feeling I start to learn new ways to heal from it.This program to me is life time membership,everyday I learn new things.Everyday I am worth the effort to forgive others and myself for as long as I hold onto these burdens I stay sick.I choose to grow and yes I too have these same feeling come back.But they get eaiser to let go of for I have tools in recovery.
Be good to you hun you are worth it.love angel/Sharon
I struggle with shame a lot some days. Recently not so much. I know usually when some awareness hits me that shame, blame, guilt all seem to work together. Those emotions are other leveled on myself or on others. I try to take one thing at a time and not the whole enchilada at once. When I get in that place - I start with my sponsor by talking things through. If my sponsor is unavailable then I will pick up the phone or come here to the MIP site.
I remember tremendous shame about my past behavior after being in the program for only a couple months. It kept me from sleeping and night. But...all that didn't get me into the solution. At first it kept me from growing at all because I felt like there was no way I could take all this stuff I had done back. And I was right...you can't take it back. You take it forward.
I do better now as I know better. I am grateful for the patience of the people in this program who get to weather some of my defects of character as they find their balance. Rest assured twinmom that there are plenty of people here to help you and love you become the best you possible.
I too took on the shame of alcoholism , what would people think of me for marrying and A? How could I have been so stupid ? then the shame of his behavior towards others always apologizing for his behavior to others. And comming to this prog and being told that none of his actions were my business giving up enableing and letting him hang there taking the concequnces for his own behavior is not easy but necessary if anything is ever going to change.
Then a wonderful woman reminded me that I did not marry a drunk I married a nice young man with dreams just like mine but alcohol got in the mix and evrything kinda died. So it's ok to love an alcoholic what a relief that was .
The shame the alcoholic feels is none of my business but it is up to me to not make it worse by reminding him of the things he has done in th past.
As a sober person in a relationship I too have alot of things I was ashamed of my behavior was anything but exemplary , but our wonderful steps relieve me of the shame and guilt from my past and al anon shows me how to make amends on a daily basis.
The explanation that I received, that has stuck with me, is a pretty definitive difference between "guilt" and "shame".
Guilt is best defined as "I did something bad...."
Shame is best defined as "I am bad...."
I think that addictions, whether they are our own, or we are living with or around people suffering from them, challenge our self-esteem and faith in our own human spirit, on many different levels. The above descriptions helped me get back on track, to accept that I had lots of guilt issues to overcome, about behaviours I was not particularly proud of..... but I did NOT have shame, per se, as I did not, and still do not, believe or accept that I am inherently bad.
One of my favourite sayings in Al-Anon, that very much supports the above, is that "I did the best I could, with what I knew at the time."
Thanks for posting on this topic - it's a biggie for almost all of us...
Hope that helps
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Getting your feedback helps to put this topic in a different perspective for me. I do believe I have felt shame about myself for the behaviors of my "a". I especially feel it when I'm around my family and they put their two cents worth in about my relationship. I have since been able to put a boundary and a stop to that. As a child I felt a great deal of shame from my father. I found the post interesting in talking about our society being a shame based society. Many of us raise our children to feel ashamed for the mistakes they've made. My father would lay into me for hours for things I did wrong. I was never good enough and felt such shame at being me that i pushed down all of the good things. The good things were never important to him, I wanted him to take notice of all the wonderful qualities about me, but he was too self absorbed. My mother couldn't stand up to him either. She did not teach me to speak up for my feelings and honor myself. Thank God I have this program now to unlearn this behavior so maybe I won't pass this on to my children. I feel relieved by hearing other's say, I love and alcoholic, I married an alcoholic and I'm not ashamed of that anymore. Our "a'" are more than the alcoholic, they are people fighting and struggling to make it with this disease. I feel compassion coming back into my life for my "a", and the anger and resentment I had slipping away.
Twinmom
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"The people who don't mind matter and the people who mind, don't matter". (Dr. Seuss)
