Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Sportgear · Veteran Member

When Detachment Destroys Families

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Sorry for the loss. Don't give up. If he stays sober, things may work themselves out.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Detaching with love has saved the relationships I have with the drinkers in my life because I was able to allow them to make their own decisions, drink not drink without me judging them or interfering and trying to control. Detaching gave them the dignity to choose how they want to live their own life regardless if I liked it or not.

It also allowed me to focus on me and my life and not suffer at the hands of anyone else's choices.
If your family have detached and your brother doesnt like it then it sounds like he isnt being enabled which is a good thing. It could also be that your family members are putting their own lives ahead of his which is as it should be.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome sportsgear, I am sorry that you are experiencing the loss of your brother and would like to speak to the topic of detachment, and Al-Anon's philosophies and principles.

Al-Anon offers constructive tools to each member and it is suggested that we take what we like and leave the rest. Detachment is a wonderful tool and one which enables us to have healthy relationships

Detachment is encouraged because many members have built walls between themselves and the rest of the world . Practicing detachment furnishes a bridge across which Al-Anon members may begin a new approach to life and relationships generally. What you defined as detachment is not detachment .

Detachment Is not separating ourselves from other people,it is learning how to connect with them without destroying boundaries.

Detachment is suggested as a way of interacting with the world so that we no longer jumping into other people's life's telling them what to do and giving advice. In detachment. we can listen to other people and respond in a healthy fashion. Detachment involves paying attention to our own moods before we have a chance to take on someone else's We can hear someone being angry without becoming angry. We don't have to have a bad day because someone we know is, you can let everybody feel whatever they feel without interference

In other words detachment is defined as letting go of our obsession with another's behavior so as to begin to lead happier and more manageable lives, lives with dignity and rights. Lives guided by a power greater than ourselves.

I am sorry that your brother did not feel supported and has moved away . Positive thoughts and prayers go out to him

Lucy125 · Senior Member

Thanks for explaining that. In my case, my brother and his kids are lying to me. If the adult kids were willing to get help, I could have contact with them. I also believe he is suffering from Narcissistic Personality disorder which is toxic. I cannot be pulled into that vortex. I have no contact with nieces and nephews as they are just using me and trying to get money from me. I did call my brother who is in a convalescent home right now. I asked him if he would like to see me. He pretty much doesn't want to at this time. Maybe when they move him, I will go see him.

I have helped him before. He wanted to come live at my house again, and I told him no. I am told he's terminal, but that's not what doctor told me. I am not interested in games. IMO he just wanted to come here so he could continue his behaviors and have someone clean up after him.

People have to decide what they want to do with detachment. If the situation is so bad and dangerous, going no contact might be a valid option.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

The problem I see with detachment is it removes the good family values of coming together and discussing a problem as a good sister, brother etc. It becomes indifference because you made a choice to make yourself a victim and escape the confrontations that healthy families will have from time to time. MY brother never drank around us or asked for anything. They just didn't like him confr I noting them on their issues of indifference toward him so they ostracized him.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome to MIP Sportgear - glad you found us and glad you shared with us. I too am sorry that there is pain and estrangement in your family. I was taught in recovery that detaching from another is for self-protection, sanity-preservation and enmeshment avoidance. It has nothing to do with the qualifier nor is it to be used to punish. Boundaries are strongly encouraged as well in recovery, with the same purpose in mind - self vs. punishment.

I was disowned for a few years from my family. It was my parent's attempt to practice Tough Love. At the time, I thought it was cruel, mean, horrible, etc. As a parent of two children who qualify for recovery, I understand more than before. I do not judge them as they were doing what was suggested at that time, and I know that any/all other efforts to help me help myself fell on my deaf ears. I had to experience my own journey and pain - enough so that I found recovery.

Recovery programs gives us many tools and guidelines. The literature clearly suggests these tools and to be used for self-discovery, self-improvement and self-growth. There is no doubt that personal interpretation and implementation comes into it as we are all imperfect people living in an imperfect world just trying to live and enjoy life.

I'm sending prayers and positive thoughts for your family. There is never "OSFA" - One Size Fits All in recovery. Please keep coming back!

Sportgear · Veteran Member

My brother is a very successful engineer with an extensive background in leadership and interaction with people, he is not insane, the problem is dysfunction of the AA and Alanon group think mentality. They avoid difficult situations through indifference.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

From what you have stated, it does appear that they did attempt to discuss issues with him and when he confronted them , rather than argue, they detached.

Alcoholism is a 3 fold disease. It affects the person who drinks physically, emotionally and spiritually. Even when not drinking the disease is present in the thinking and problem solving part of the person. Very intelligent people are alcoholics .

In "Normal" family interactions, where alcoholism is not present , you are not dealing with the insanity of the disease and so a rational exchange of ideas can proceed. When interacting with the disease of alcoholism, thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions, and since we are powerless over others confusion reins.

Making generalized statements about AA and Alanon without proper investigation is not realistic. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

--HERBERT SPENCER

Sending positive thoughts for your family and prayers for your brother

--

Sportgear · Veteran Member

So AA and Alanon are not group think? Explain please.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

We are moving off the topic of detachment.

MissM · Senior Member

I need to know what you mean by "group think" before I can get a handle on what you're asking. Are you suggesting that AA and al-anon prescribe a common, regimented way of thinking? Because that isn't accurate. I'm having trouble understanding what you are looking for here, although I'm trying! Have you read any literature or attended any meetings that have helped you reach these conclusions? Are you seeking help to deal with the situation or just wanting us to know that you're angry because you feel that your family have used AA/al-anon to justify behaving in a way that you feel is indifferent?
I'm sorry for your brothers difficult situation by the way. It sounds as though you care for him very much.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

First let me answer your second question....what am I looking for here? Probably the same as you are....answers. as for group think...and I will answer your other questing in this paragraph as well. It was stated in this discussion that alcoholics may be too insane to reason with under normal circumstances in a family. This inference is widely believed in AA aND Alanon that alcoholic think differently and a bit off the center from normal people. Can you tell what page in the Big Book that it states this? The insanity of alcoholism is takin another drink thinking it will be different when it never is...no where that I am aware of does it say we should not talk to an alcoholic about other issues in life where we may disagree....and I right?

MissM · Senior Member

I believe you are right; no-one can or should tell you not to talk to anyone, alcoholic or otherwise. Al-anon is about learning to stop engaging in behaviours that are destructive to us as individuals. Only we can identify what those behaviours are and how they should be modified. Some of us over-care and emesh ourselves in the lives of others (chiefly, addicts) to the point where we cease to take proper care of ourselves and become no good to ourselves or anyone else. Al-anon to my understanding is a program that helps people to identify for themselves what behaviours are causing them harm and take whatever action is right (once again, self identified). AA is not al-anon and I can't speak on behalf of that program. There are similarities and there are also many differences.

I can't speak to any 'widely held beliefs" as I've not encountered anything like what you seem to be suggesting. To my understanding you and I are free to talk to anyone we want about any topic we like and no-where in any al-anon literature i have read does it suggest otherwise. I'm sorry that your experience has been different but the actions of a few people don't reflect or summarise an entire organisation.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, maybe? You might find that if you take the time to understand al-anon and its principals the answers you are seeking will reveal themselves.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

I am angry at my family for making AA and Alanon their family and throwing away their real family.

MissM · Senior Member

That's understandable. Of course I don't know them and I can't know how they feel or what their motives are. My family is very dysfunctional for different reasons (chiefly because everyone is drunk all the time lol) and what I have gained from al-anon is the ability to "detach" which means being able to maintain my own peace and serenity even when other people are doing and saying things that I think they shouldn't do. (It doesn't simply mean "cut people out" although of course sometimes that is actually necessary). That helps me to have a much better and in fact closer relationship with many of them, my brothers for example, because I can hear their problems/angers/worries etc and take steps to help them where appropriate without becoming so upset by their worries that I cease to be able to function myself...that's the purpose of al-anon to the best of my knowledge, does this make any sense to you? It's not about being indifferent, it's about not absorbing other people's worries and creating two sick, miserable people where once there was one.

If your family as been widely affected by alcoholism and you are angry/hurt by their behaviour you might find al-anon to be surprisingly useful.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Yes I completely understand your position. What I have found in my family is they have gone from drinking and being obnoxious to be sober in AA and being obnoxious. My parents tried to.parent me with the AA program, I despised it. THey created an ivory tower that I constantly tried to knock down. If you ever try to question AA or Alanon around them or their friends they will have none of it. They have been brainwashed beyond anything I have ever seen. I seriously do not know what was worse, their drinking or AA.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

I also meant to say that I will never go to AA or Alanon again yep tried it, because it has absorbed my family. Also when I did go those people had all the answers, they think...it's just not good. Professional help is the best, not just some off the cuff opinions from people who are in dysfunction and feel better by feeling superior having gone to many meetings. I found them all close minded and sick.

MissM · Senior Member

I think with any program, people can take what they want from it. Sometimes people use their programs/meeting attendance to justify crappy behaviour; it's a fact and it does happen, I totally hear you. On the other side of the coin, many, many people choose to use the programs to grow in positive ways and their relationships with others become much more harmonious and productive as a result. I try to reside in the second group and, being human, probably hang out in the first one from time to time as well.
Like I said, baby/bathwater.
Sorry your experiences have been so negative. I hope the situation improves for you.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Thank you, I believe you are in the second group

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

With or without a formal program, all persons have free will. You have the choice to be angry at your relatives or not. You have the right to hold on to your pain or not. At no point does anyone have the right to tell you how to feel, why to feel or when to stop, but you do.

Recovery is one way of helping individuals change their life journey in the hopes of improving their own joy and serenity. We each have our own journey and we each grow differently. I commend your mother for 33 years clean/sober - I'm at 29. I have 2 boys who have never seen me under the influence. They both opted to experiment with substances, in spite of our gene pool and my honesty. They both ended up with addiction issues and in jail/prison. My program suggest I avoid drama/chaos, so we are reasonably estranged at this time. I detach from their behaviors/attitudes/choices, but I still love them.

I can honestly share with you that in spite of my defects which exist because I am a human, I was a train-wreck ++++++++ before AA & Al-Anon. If you are finding peace and joy through professional help, great on you. We tried more than 15+ family and individual therapists, and nothing worked. I'd rather donate $1 when I have it and spend time with others who are also seeking peace in their life and serenity in their heart.

I am truly sorry for the pain you are feeling. We don't offer advice in Al-Anon, so if you felt you got 'all the answers' at an Al-Anon meeting, you might want to try another. Some people, just as some groups are sicker than others. Having alcoholism in your family - active or not - certainly qualifies you for a seat at the table. This applies, of course, to AA meetings too - some are better than others. I do mix my recovery up and attend different groups each time I go - I love new perspective.

Good luck with your journey no matter how you go/grow!

Lucy125 · Senior Member

I have a very good example in my cousins family. VERY GOOD example of detachment. My cousin had a daughter whom he loved very much. She was an only child. His wife left him and he tried to be a good dad. He got custody of daughter but she ran away and started using meth. She got into big trouble with the law, so he blackmailed her and told her that he was going to call police on her, unless she went to a rehab. He spent a ton of money on rehab. She got clean. Well then she started it up again. I guess she just wasn't ready. WEll she got arrested AGAIN and this time she was pregnant.

He told me the hardest thing he ever did was leave her in jail. He did not bail her out. He told her she could not come to her grandmother's funeral. Well she went to court and they put her in a residential treatment program. She had the baby. HE WAS NORMAL!!!!! The residential treatment program helped her get a job and get clean. She has the baby and he's fine. She's working and clean and off meth and out of jail.

She told me, "my dad saved my life, by leaving me in jail." She said the other people in jail with her, their relatives bailed them out. Well they died, all of them died. IN this case detachment greatly increased the chances of the loved one getting well or good. She's clean now going on 4 years. Let me tell you, Meth is worse than alcohol.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

If I grew up with gangbuster program parents, I would probably feel similar to you sportgear. At first, I felt the need to defend both AA and alanon, but I put myself in your shoes.

There is good to both AA and alanon. I hope you experience different/better if you ever feel the desire.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

There are both healthy groups and unhealthy groups. I really struggled with what could or should I say at the beginning of recovery and what I shouldn't .. What was detachment vs cutting off. It was very difficult for me to figure out and still. I'm only learning now how to communicate effectively which is still a foreign concept. I was very angry at both programs coming in. I think what I have really learned is take what I like and leave the rest. It's not a one shoe fits all program .. What I mean is everyone recovers differently. I hope you are able to find peace for yourself in dealing with your family. Hugs ..

a4l · ~*Service Worker*~

What pink chip said. That really sucks sportsgear. Yes sometimes people go from obnoxious active addict to just obnoxious. I wear obnoxious from time to time. Sometimes I need to read stuff like this and I too am sorry about your brother. Hope stuff gets better.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I cant believe people are responding to this in this way. So it's OK to make these statements about the program that has helped like nothing else could? Alanon gave me a life literally. I probably wouldn't be here. It saved me. Of course the people within it aren't perfect but is that the point? Feel like jumping on this band wagon is a dodgy wagon. For me I'm in alanon for the lot. I've got to be. I thought we all had to be. Or are we supposed to be bendy we want alanon to help us but we also know how crap it is? Struggling with this one.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree LC

Fooled · Senior Member

el-cee wrote:
I cant believe people are responding to this in this way. So it's OK to make these statements about the program that has helped like nothing else could? Alanon gave me a life literally. I probably wouldn't be here. It saved me. Of course the people within it aren't perfect but is that the point? Feel like jumping on this band wagon is a dodgy wagon. For me I'm in alanon for the lot. I've got to be. I thought we all had to be. Or are we supposed to be bendy we want alanon to help us but we also know how crap it is? Struggling with this one.

I don't think anyone was saying anything derogatory about the program itself. I think the original poster was expressing their anger and hurt about family members doing something that the poster didn't agree with and using their AA and Alanon program to defend themselves. The original poster said they were hurt and angry and I believe them. That's their reality.

Every person is different, every group is different, I've gone to face to face meetings where there was a lot of structure and some where it was a little more relaxed. There is no denial that there are some groups that are a little shady. Ive met people who, in my opinion, distorted the beliefs and steps of both AA and Alanon to their line of thinking. Or used a principle to deflect their anger at their loved ones. I met a family last week that was so AA and Alanon that their whole life was structured around the blue book and Hope for Today, it works for them. I can see as a child this might get confusing. Growing up in a strict Catholic environment with an alcoholic was very confusing to me as a child. I had a lot of resentment.

The thing is we don't know what the original poster experienced. We have to admit sometimes people just don't experience what we have. I give a lot of credit to Alanon for my growth so far. I enjoy this board as well. My faith is important to me and I have to admit was the most influential of all in my change. Everybody is different and everybody has to walk their own walk.

I hope that the original poster gets some peace with whatever program they chose, or not. I think it's great that so many people shared how the program worked in their life and what their experience was. We may not have shared that same experience and that's ok.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I was on another site where people argued with all the anti AA / alanon folks. It was very frustrating and all it did was make more of them. They had no moderators. You guys have seen me lead with anger and a sharp tongue. I'm trying to be different. Compassion brings out a better side of me.

Fooled · Senior Member

My A shared a joke with me last week from IOP that was very Anti Alanon and the facility holds Alanon meetings twice per week. LOL I know when I came here I was very angry and thanks to this boards compassion I was able to tone it down a notch. I think the whole let it begin with me philosophy is the foundation for most groups and most people who are working their recovery in alanon.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Personally i feel this is a good discussion. Like many others in AA and Alanon people get defensive when criticism is brought up about either program. My Dad would actually accept anything his AA friends would say over me. That was very distressing. He and Mom became very militant AA and Alanon members as well as two of my siblings. What I was saying about detachment is it provides an excuse not to deal with people you should deal with out of live for family. Our family is permanently split over use of detachment. The detaching of my brother because he criticized other family members over their judgemental views and his honesty of the dysfunction in the family has caused our family to die.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

My apologies if my response was offensive. I see an angry person who blames recovery programs. I tried to share my ESH and be compassionate for their current emotional state. I see no reason to JADE with anyone over the benefits of the program for me, nor do I see a reason to hand-hold and people please. I tried to have compassion without enabling - perhaps I did not succeed....LOLOL.

I do not believe detachment destroys families. I certainly do not believe that recovery is the issue in family dysfunction. Of course, I'm at a place in my journey where I don't place any blame for where my life is or has been on anybody but me. I'd love to have to power to help those stuck in a victim role, unfortunately, I just don't have it.

For the record, I love my recovery journey and would also not be here if it were not for the program. I love the peace of mind, freedom of choice, joy and sanity it gave me.

I refer and reflect often on "How it Works" in Chapter 5 of the AA Big Book - here's just the start of it....

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who can not or will not completely give themselves to this simple program. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to be born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

My ego would love for me to argue, defend and sing the praises of the program. My higher power suggests I let others fall, fail and find as they can/will/want their own recovery. My very first sponsor in AA had me memorize Chapter 5 and as hard as it was with a pickled brain, it has served me very, very well - over and over and over again. The bolded part tells me it's not my job to decide if others can't or won't.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

My ego would love for me to argue, defend and sing the praises of the program. My higher power suggests I let others fall, fail and find as they can/will/want their own recovery.

Thank you, you are a doll.x

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Pinkchip xxxx

Sportgear · Veteran Member

To Iamhere, Your post is precisely what I find often from members of Alanon and AA people in general. It's a passive agressive approach saying you prefer not to criticize, argue or get into the drama but you did exactly that in a back handed way.....typical.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

And the "not a victim and I am responsible for where I am in life" take. Very typical as well and the reason my Mother of 33 yrs sober has never made amends to her kids.....we should just suck it up and not be victims I guess.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Sportgear, It certainly sounds as if you have been affected by the disease of alcoholism. I would like to assure that my hubby making amends might have helped him, however it did not wipe out the anger resentment and pain within me, caused by the disease.

Attending a recovery program such as alanon or acoa did help me address the pain caused by living with the disease. . Keep an open mind and keep coming back

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Sportsgear - I agree with Betty. It certainly sounds as if you have been affected by the disease.

I won't take your inventory as we keep the focus on ourselves. I wrote my thoughts, experience, strength and hope. Communication has many parts, the sender, message, filters, receiver. Clearly there is a break-down if you personalized my response.

You started this topic. However, we try to share relative to our own situation. I have no interest in changing you or your place in life. I would love to change my own qualifiers if I had that power. Unfortunately, I do not.

Recovery is life-changing, but it does require an open mind. We also often suggest that one 'takes what they like and leave the rest behind. I don't live in an ivory tower, but I do live in a glass home. I learned in recovery to not throw stones. There is no hidden agenda or passive/aggressive message in my share.

We are all here because the disease of alcoholism in another has affected us. That's the only requirement for belonging to AFG (Al-Anon Family Group). There is hope and help in recovery - keep coming back!

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

'And the "not a victim and I am responsible for where I am in life" take. Very typical as well and the reason my Mother of 33 yrs sober has never made amends to her kids.....we should just suck it up and not be victims I guess.'

33yrs sober could be that living amends, thats huge. What age were you when she stopped drinking if you dont mind me asking? The reason I ask is I recently attended an AA convention and there were alcoholics who shared that they were sober for years and years and they were grateful because they got to give their daughter away at her wedding, whereas if drunk they probably wouldn't get an invite. Some mentioned their grandchildren and how much they are involved in their lives, while drinking none of it is possible. These are living amends, being there in mind and body. While drunk the only bit present in a active alcoholic person is the shell. The person is empty and can give very little in terms of being there, being able to listen, support or even love family members and this is the same for the alanon.

Ive being in program for almost 5yrs, I have still to do the direct amends officially. Ive said sorry for various immature, neglectful, irresponsible things I did while parenting 3 kids and being immature, in denial and full of resentment and self pity living with a drunk husband. Every day I get the chance to make living amends, just by being there for them to listen, not judge, not direct, not control, not force my world view and values on them. Im not saying im 100% good at it.

Could you consider your own part in how you feel about your parents? What I mean is often when Im most upset at someone elses behaviour or choices its because it touches a nerve within me, its the mirror thing, its uncomfortable seeing bad behaviour in others that we find hard to own. You have mentioned your parents as being self rightous and judgemental well, no offence but I kind of see that in what your saying. Alanon and AA have an underlying spiritual message that I doubt I will ever get close to, its about forgiveness, compassion, dignity, love all of it and I cant help but think how amazing it would have been if my own parents got into these programmes, I imagine there are a lot of people here who wish that everyday. You are lucky in so many ways and Im thinking maybe you didnt feel the full effects of your parents heyday, the drinking days and so you may have no comparison and therefor no gratitude.

I truly know, along with most here, what alcoholism looks like and how damaging it is to families, your folks are in recovery, to me thats a huge thing to be grateful for.

Bethany66 · Senior Member

Sportsgear, so sorry for the place you find yourself now. It sounds very painful.
I know for myself I had to get to the place where I realized that things are what they are. My arguing, defending and cajoling did nothing to change the reality of the uncomfortable, unfair situation. And then I began to work really hard to adjust the only thing I had control over which was myself. And it is a constant work in process. What others do or don't do is not in my control. How I respond and choose to react or not react is totally in my control. Maybe that is what is meant by not being a victim. It means that no one can make you feel better, only you can do that for yourself. Maybe it is about giving up wasting time fussing over what others do or don't do and choosing a better day for ourselves in whatever way we can make that happen for ourselves.

Just my two cents...I hope you find peace and are able to let go of the pain.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln