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Need some ESH for being Gaslighted. On the way to church yesterday my RAH saw me frantically searching through my wallet for my cash for the envelope. It wasn't there! I tore apart my pocketbook, looked in every nook and cranny of my hiding spots. Not there! I announced to him that my money was gone, and his reaction was not one that I expected. I asked him if he had any cash and he told me no. Problem solved anyway, but in church our Pastor asked him if he had any milestones to share and RAH said No. Now I Know he just celebrated 30 days! I didn't say anything though. So, after church RAH said I hurt his feelings because I accused him of taking the money by asking him if he had any cash, knowing full well he didn't, and also looking at him suspiciously for not wanting to share his 30 days. I said I was wrong and apologized for hurting his feelings and he accepted my apology.
The money was in hidden in his wallet the whole time! Minus $4, ironically what a beer would cost!
Well, I took my money back! I haven't said a word either. Ive tried Qtip and its just not working. Is this what my marriage has come down to? If so, why bother? I wish I could take my apology back too!!!
This morning I checked my wallet and was missing $5. I KNOW it was there. I meticulously counted my money last night and then again this morning. I calmly confronted him and said, "I would like my $5 back, please." He was all, "What? I didn't take any money from you" I responded that I know exactly how much money I had and there is a five dollar bill missing. He then went on a diatribe. "You know, I'm trying to do better and I still get accused of things I didn't do. It gives me a case of the ""f*ck its" and makes me not want to try."
I said that was fine. If he wants to feel sorry for himself that when money goes missing he is the one that gets asked because, oh i don't know, nothing goes missing until hes around? I am guessing he expected me to say, I know your trying darling. I will just gloss over the fact that you just stole from me and attempted to gaslight me to think you didn't, and BTW, I wont bring it up because it may make you feel bad and that might cause a binge. WTF ever, I am so over this crap.
Sorry, nothing to positive to say, that was just my experience this morning and I have to be honest that I am dealing with some resentments.
Countless times, when my active qualifiers were living here, money and more vanished. I can share that never, ever did they own it, no matter how I asked, inquired, accused, etc. It was beyond annoying and I was so appalled that theft was considered OK, and accountability went out the window unless they were caught red-handed and then they would poof up their chest and act as if I was the crazy one....crazy-making, chaotic and way too much drama for me to live with!
For me, this is where the Serenity Prayer came in to play. I could not change them, the loss, the theft, the lack of values, etc. - so was stuck to accept it as it was/is. Courage came when I got in front of these behaviors by locking up my purse, my cash, and anything else of value that I did not want to be taken, misplaced, broken, etc. Wisdom was stop asking or assuming and do what I could to protect what I valued.
I actually installed locks on my bedroom, and all spare rooms that I didn't want them rummaging in/going through. My purse was always locked in my trunk and my keys were always either with me or locked in my bedroom. I made sneaking money from my wallet a hellova lot harder than before and that was action I could take to help protect my sanity.
We were once in family counseling and this came up. The counselor looked right at me and said if this matters to you this much, you are going to have to get a step ahead of their actions. You are going to have to think like an alcoholic, and you should know how to....I responded that I had spent 20 years trying to not think that way any longer, but do still have the capacity to do so.
They laughed and made jokes about my locks and actions, and I just opted to not react. My things stopped disappearing and that was my ultimate goal since I was powerless over them, their actions and choices.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
((Fooled))) and ((Kspec))) Living with and dealing with the disease of alcoholism is certainly challenging. Since being deceptive is a symptom of the disease,the more I learned to accept this fact, the better I was able to deal with the deception.
Being honest, open and willing, with the person helped tremendously and I salute you " Kspec" for sticking to your boundaries and stating your facts. I guess learning from the experiences is the best we can do so that keeping money and credit cards in a safe place so this does not happen in the future is a lesson to be learned.
"Fooled" as far as is not wanting to share his progress, this is his own personal decision and I'm glad that you did not attempt to share it for him. In finding the money in his wallet, minus the four dollars that would've been the perfect opportunity to say what you mean mean, what you say and not say it mean.
The more I understood the disease of alcoholism and let go of all my expectations, the easier it became to draw my boundaries and take care myself. I finally understood that "Acceptance"of these symptoms was not my giving approval to the action, but simply that I understood that this was the reality of the disease, and that I would no longer be upset over it but would the learn to protect myself in a healthy fashion.
I am sorry that this behavior is continuing. I had to really understand and alcoholism is a threefold disease, and that stopping drinking was only addressing the physical aspects of the disease. The emotional and spiritual aspects took a great deal of effort and time to address and so I needed to practice my program diligently Positive thoughts and prayers on the way.
Kspec Isnt this so frustrating! I too am so over this. I am tired of living in this swamp of addiction. Then I feel bad, because obviously I am not capable of unconditional love.
Iamhere I haven't gone as far as the locks but I do hide things I guess he will stoop to any level to get his drinking money.
Betty-Please give me an example of saying what I mean, mean what I say, so should I have confronted him? He would just deny it. Come up with another excuse. I was just going to wait until he went to the bar and went to pay for his beer and find out he had no money. I mean, he didn't worry about me not having the money for the envelope and accepted my apology for "accusing" him. Thank you for your support in my staying out of his recovery and not sharing for him. I guess I pretty much knew right then and there.
Suzann It is difficult to explain how to say what you mean when I do not know how you discovered the money. If you went into his wallet and found the money it might be difficult to explain your actions.
Since we don't want to become like the alcoholic, hiding our actions and pretending, then being honest about the facts of how you discovered the money and are disappointed would be a start.
My AH didnt just take from my wallet, he needed me to sign a loan against our house that he organized without me knowing. When I asked what the loan was for he replied, "Oh, just for a rainy day." When I suggested that we WAIT for that rainy day, he got severely agitated and threatened divorce. His feelings were "hurt" too, since he had gone to all this trouble "for our family."
Because of Al-anon, I could see the manipulation and actually had the courage to not sign the loan (miracle.) He reacted by moving out. Yet he would not file for divorce.
During this time I went to lots and LOTS of al-anon meetings. I examined myself and what I was becoming in a relationship with no trust.
Ten years later I can see even more clearly that his actions were not personal, his actions had nothing to do with me. I know this because he continues to project the disease in his head at the world, I am nowhere around it anymore. He still suffers, and those around him (not in recovery) suffer too.
I think you did GREAT by not getting involved in the question from pastor to your husband about "milestones." it was not your question to answer and you stayed on your side of the street, yea YOU! And husband doesnt owe anyone an answer to a very private question, it's an anonymous program for him too.
To me, I love my family very very much, that never changed. but I cannot live in the insanity. so to me, this is unconditional love, forgiving them because "they know not what they do."
Lying/denying is a very frustrating thing to deal with. But it's a part of dealing with an alcoholic. I can say that it didn't matter if my ex was actively using or not, he still lied all the time. About everything.
The only thing you can do is take steps to protect yourself, as others have mentioned above. Really, in the end, it's not the $5 you're worried about, it's the activity around it that is causing you grief. They are going to find a way to get what they need, no matter what we do.
I ended up asking my alcoholic/addict to leave our house (not implying that's what you should do, it's what worked for ME) - the reason I'm saying this is because he found someone else to live with and he is currently taking THAT persons money.
All that time I spent heart broken, feeling unlovable and not good enough for him to care enough or treat me well, it had nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with the disease. You are just the person that is in front of him at the moment.
Al Anon is teaching me how to put myself first and see that it is not that he doesn't love me enough to be honest ... but that he's sick and he can't be honest with ANYONE, whether it's me or the next guy.
Take steps to protect your valuables.
Take steps to protect yourself and your heart as well.
Suzann It is difficult to explain how to say what you mean when I do not know how you discovered the money. If you went into his wallet and found the money it might be difficult to explain your actions.
Since we don't want to become like the alcoholic, hiding our actions and pretending, then being honest about the facts of how you discovered the money and are disappointed would be a start.
After he changed his clothes I went into our bedroom and went through his wallet and found the money hidden behind his drivers license. And I took it back!
So, this morning he came home from Court and said I was going to buy you a cup of coffee but someone stole my mad money I had hidden in my wallet. I said oh you mean the $36 left over from the $40 you took from my wallet? He started to gaslight and say no I had that money for a long time and I call BS and said no, I gave back the money you took from my daughters boyfriend the night of your accident. So, that was the $40 I had in my wallet. He began to back pedal and say well if I took the money out of your wallet before church then I would've given it to you when you realized someone took your money. I said No, then you would have to admit that you took it. Because we both know you didn't have any cash on you. So, after 5 minutes he admitted he took the money because "he wanted to have some too" and then had the audacity to say he felt violated because I went through his wallet. I said so do I because you took it from my wallet, tried to gaslight me, accepted an apology that you didn't deserve, and let me search in a panic and just sat there.
2HP Someday I hope to have that ability to see through the manipulation and be able to swerve around it. One of the things that had me so resentful was he called me on the day of our anniversary asking for 4000 to buy the very motorcycle he wrecked, knowing that he did not have an anniversary gift for me and had been lying about having one, and when I said no, he got very aggressive and childish until he broke me down.
I don't know if this will help, if it doesn't, disregard it. The addicted person in my life was gaslighting me YEARS before the alcohol was a problem. Even if that person gets better, that behavior might still exist. I have been focusing on the fact that I keep hoping for when. When that person gets better.... Now is the time to be happy because even if they stop drinking these behaviors might still continue. I know someone that is completely sober and a tee totaler that does this behavior.
My husband gaslights me by talking disrespectfully about me when I am not there, basically not taking any responsibility for his issues in our relationship and telling everyone how awful I am - he's a professional victim. I became aware of this when some of his friends started treating me very badly. I thought that was odd because I don't even know some of these people very well. I received a few snide remarks here and there that made it clear to me what was happening. Before I realized what was going on, I mentioned to my AH how I didn't care for these people - that they weren't very nice and he accused me (again) of not being able to get along with people. This was in the middle of the period where I became isolated from people because of the emotional abuse I was dealing with (which I didn't realize that that was the issue at the time) so I started to believe that I was the problem. I just knew that I didn't like myself and wasn't sure why. Until I started coming to AlAnon about a month ago.
I "get it" with the "love the alcoholic" part but I too struggle with a HUGE amount of resentment I feel. I am very good at stuffing my feelings and pretending they don't exist or convincing myself that they're not important so to be in the beginning of the program and asked to love the alcoholic is difficult. The problem has been that I have been loving him too much - more than I love myself! If I continue to love him and forgive him because he doesn't know what he's doing, I am still being emotionally abused and that's not ok. It is difficult at times to wrap my head around both at the same time - allowing myself to feel what I truly feel and loving the alcoholic. That makes me feel a little crazy. Respect is supposed to be a 2 way street. Again, I understand the principle and don't need it explained, I am just saying that there are times that it is very difficult to do. I think what I resent most of all is that because of the abuse I've allowed for such a long time, I don't feel strong enough to leave right now. I think I may be in a few months but not now.
Little by little, the more I am seeing things with a different lens, I realize that what other people think really doesn't matter but - wow - that is very difficult. I still feel humiliated because he tends to complain about his perceived problems to anyone who will listen. But again, little by little I need to find my own new path and one day I won't be feeling worthless like I do now a lot of the time. That will involve letting go and dealing with my fear of abandonment so it's not an easy road.
Thanks to Alanon I believe something different is possible - not easy, but possible.
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How people treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours.
@Mercury, I so appreciate your post and am glad you brought up FEELINGS. The format of one of my meetings is dedicated to the topic of feelings once a month because our Al-anon literature is loaded with references on the subject.
I don't want you to misunderstand what I mean about forgiveness "for they know not what they do"... forgiveness does NOT mean tolerating abuse and does not mean looking the other way acting like this stuff isn't happening or bothering me, that is not forgiveness or love... I'd call it denial and enabling. I forgive because he is simply not aware... damaging himself.... damaging his relationships... his karma.... just walking around in complete darkness. would anyone intentionally do this if they were awake and understood??
Today, I can be responsible for my own sanity and not leave it in the hands of an active alcoholic. I no longer need to prove what a great person I am by how much pain I can endure. been there, done that until I was near hopeless. the goal was to stop my pain and share that solution with others. it was a simple choice and yet very, very radical for me... took me years. it's okay they told me, we're on "God's Time" in recovery.
-- Edited by 2HP on Monday 31st of October 2016 12:35:43 PM
One of the huge lessons I needed to learn in alanon was how to take care of myself first and to treasure my serenity above all else
NO more pretending to believe nonsense, no more making my needs/ wants invisible to please others. Instead being able to express my truth without blaming or judging another by learning to place principles above personalities and implementing my determination to treat everyone with courtesy and respect.
If I found someone had stolen from me and had proof, i would state what I found and and take appropriate actions to prevent a repetition and then let go and let God. The key to my recovery was to draw boundaries and move forward without dwelling on the numerous ongoing infractions. I simply refuse to surrender my hard won serenity to another .
This is a interesting topic for me, because I called my daughter out for gaslighting me this morning. Using those exact words, lol; bleary eyed and furious at 6am I bellowed "DON'T YOU TRY TO GASLIGHT ME CHILD!!!" She does this thing where she takes something of mine without asking or makes arrangements without my permission etc and then vehemently insists that I agreed to it or instigated it. She did it 3 times this morning, before I was even properly awake. Firstly she roared into my bedroom looking for her hairbrush which she had left on my dresser and accused me of taking it. (I don't use a hairbrush; my hair is curly and unbrushable) . then she couldn't find her shorts and she insisted she had given them to me to wash the night before and i had lost them. She was so adamant about both of these things, describing an imaginary scene from the night before when she saw me take her hairbrush and she handed me her shorts. I found the shorts under her bed along with an empty packet of herbal weight loss pills that belonged to me...they were empty. She insisted I had given them to her. I would not EVER do such a thing. Who gives their 13 year old daughter weight loss pills? Are you effing serious? Then she tried to tell me she "only took one". The packet was new before she took it; I hadn't opened it. All 30 pills were gone. I'd asked her a few weeks ago if she knew where they went, too. "Nope, what pills?"
This sort of behavior infuriates me beyond belief because it mirrors her fathers; he was a gaslighter extrordinaire. You could catch him with something of yours in his hands and he'd insist you'd stopped time and placed it in his grasp while he was frozen before he'd admit that he had picked it up himself.
Recognising it and understanding that my perceptions were NOT deficient and this was someone else behaving badly was a process that took some getting used to. I was brought up to think my perceptions, memory and understanding of situations was so sub-par that I should always seek a second (superior) opinion on what had just transpired.
To me it's pretty reprehensible behaviour that has done me a lot of harm in the past so I call it as soon as I am sure I see it now. It doesn't help me to JADE or try to get drawn into a unwinnable argument so I try to state what i see happening and take whatever steps are necessary to protect myself. I ike the word Gaslight because it embodies the behaviour so well and also because it's one of my fave movies so I will say "don't gaslight me" and let that speak for itself. When XA asked me what I was talking about I made him watch the movie, lol. (He was snoring after about half an hour of course) (more lol)
Anyway for me it's important t state my truth and then take steps to back it up so I believe in the instance you describe, I would simply not leave my wallet in a place that it could be accessed by him again. If he tried to play hurt about it I'd say it was to 'save any future confusion". I'm a big fan of taking appropriate action and letting those actions speak for themselves; it works a lot better for me than arguing or "he said, she said and then you did" kinds of history revisions which I always seem to lose at. A simple action is a lot less of a drain on my serenity than hours of arguing about why someone else should do or not do x,y,z!!
Thank you @2HP. I try to remember that this is a process and that I need to accept the murkiness along with the moments of clarity (and have hope the "moments" of clarity turn into minutes and hours and days...)
{{{{@Fooled}}}}
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How people treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours.
I just wanted to share that I went to a face to face tonight and shared the same thing and exactly what I did in this post. In this face to face meeting there is allowed cross talking so I again asked for some ESH. I respect everyones opinion and try to gather as much as I can to see what works best for me. The chair tonight who is a Alcohol abuse counselor shared an insightful phrase Consequences don't bring change but sometimes Consequences can bring about change. I know it sounds ridiculous. But in my case my doing what I did and my A discovering that I stood up for myself by taking back the money which I would never have done before is a Consequence that brought his attention and that is something important also in detaching. It also led to a conversation in which I called foul play in that he disrespected me allowing me to search in my pocketbook and knowing he had it all the time. I referenced his behavior to that as a child and he took notice and asked for clarification and I said if a parent says no candy and the child says I want the candy and sneaks it. Defiance. He used the same behavior that he has used since a child because it always worked. Part of the boundary setting process for me is not accepting being disrespected anymore. Anyway, I thought it was equally good ESH.
Wow,what a great topic and all the great esh.
Never heard of gas lighting ,after reading all this thread I went to researching it and found a lot on it,
Basically what I found was gas lighting is mind games that our loved ones play on us or visa versa,our qaulifiers or whom ever take information ,twist it,spun,to benifit them.
Should be a law against this?????? It is mental abuse,also in the end stages of gas lighting causes us depression,anxiety,hopelessness,then offers a 1-800-domestic violence hot line#......thanks for posting this topic,great topic and very informative.......lu
AS someone from a family where mom as a narcissist. She doesn't use drugs or anything, this gas lighting behavior is very very mentally abusive. I spent 30 years with various psychologists trying to recover from this type of thing gaslighting thing. I was on psychiatric drugs for 25 years. I have been off of all prescription drugs for 5 years. I was told that I was the problem by my mom. She just dropped me off at psychiatrist and said: fix her. My mother told me I needed the prescription drugs. The drugs never really helped me. I finally realized, I was okay. It was this crazy behavior of manipulation and mind games that screwed me up.
The psychiatric drugs are really hard to get off of. I drank boxes and boxes of herbal tea and had insomnia for months until all the withdrawal was over. I believe that I used those 12 steps, but not with those words, to get off these prescription drugs. I had learned these principles from the psychologist. I also had a lot of books on depression and anxiety and I would carry them around and read them over and over. I thank God for helping me to get out of that terrible hole.
alcohol didn't work for me. I just don't care for the effects, or else I might have ended up in alcoholic trouble.
I'm new here and was gaslighted by my fiancé he is 2.5 years sober and goes to AA I thought the narcassist behaviour would stop since he's been in AA but the lies never stopped
The funny thing is by me striking back it has thrown my A off kilter. He would've never ever thought that was possible of me. Even now when the term gas lighting is mentioned he becomes irritated that he is capable of abuse. That my perception is wrong. I asked him why he took the money and he said because he wanted some cash in his pocket for things. I reminded him that we do not have the financial privilege right now for just things but I put $15 on his night stand yesterday afternoon. He doesn't even recall that he left his wallet in the jeep yesterday and the money is still on his nightstand. So how important was the money in his pocket? Calling him out and standing up I just took away his power. I am now aware of his gaslighting and its been a game changer for me. I am not crazy!
