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The serenity prayer teaches us to, "accept the things I cannot change."
This is the same as saying, "accept unacceptable behavior because you can't change it." If a person believes this to be true, he/she sooner or later must collapse under the weight of it all. We are told that we cannot change the behavior of the addict or alcoholic, so we must accept the A as he/she is...that's it...help me to do that God...period. I would rather dismiss the harbinger of unacceptable behavior than to give in, give up, and give out!! Why on earth should I accept what is unacceptable? To gain serenity? I don't understand how that mindset can possible lead to serenity.
Detachment is another thing that makes me wonder. I have heard the question raised here on this forum; "He is driving drunk? Should I try to stop him? If I do, I am enabling and not detaching." Think of the implications here...Who in their right mind would not at least attempt to stop a person from driving drunk??? Detachment seems a convoluted idea to me unless I am ready to completely remove myself from the situation. Detach with love? Leave is a better description. Get out! Now there's a solution!
"Leave him to his HP." Now THAT makes sense.
I am not trying to be difficult; I simply wonder if any of you have similar feelings about accepting, enabling, and detachment.
With sincere caring, Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I understand your thinking, sure why should we put up with that behavior? Well, for me, I've come to find out I was the one making myself crazy. No, this crap wasn't acceptable, I was going to make sure my A knew it. I was going to make him SEE (lol). I was going to be sure he understood all the turmoil he was causing. Did this help? No. Did it change him, no. What did it do to me? Made me an angry witch that had I had a broom, I'd have flown over to where he was and clobber him with it. Here is the kicker, I loved him. If he'd only had listen to ME, hey, I'd be fine. Life would have been bliss. So darn it, it was his fault for not listening to ME. Do you know one of the first things someone in Al-anon asked me was "Would you want to come home to you?" --- uuuhh No.
When I finally accepted that I couldn't change him, that he was the only one who could, it released me from such a burden. It opened my eyes to the fact that I had a life that could be enjoyable -- it meant that I couldn't blame him for my misery, that I had to live and let live. You determine what you can live with. What is acceptable. There are so many of us that some people would look at our situations and say "there is no way I could live with that" but we do by choice. What may be acceptable/unacceptable to you, may not be for me. It is personal.
This program is about changing our attitudes and our perceptions. It is a change in our focus, from the A to us. I know it was so much easier to look at the A. Crap, he was covered in defects that were so easy to point out. But me, well I really didn't want to look at me, honest there wasn't a whole lot wrong with ME. (lol) When I truly started looking at myself and not my A, I was scared. I came under the "curse of awareness." I began to SEE myself, understand that I had a lot of work to do and then knew that it was that which I was asking for "the courage to change."
As far as Driving Drunk, well, I'm not going to put myself in between my A and him driving if it is going to make it a huge fight here. I can only ask him to not drive, offer him a ride. I can not take on the responsibility of trying to save him or what he may do to others by driving drunk if it is going to cause mega damage here. I have to put him in HP's hands and let him go. I know others don't feel this way, it is what I have to do and I will not accept guilt if he kills himself. I can no longer kill myself trying to prevent him from killing himself. Again, this is personal, this is what I do. It sounds harsh and selfish, but the fact is that I'm not the selfish one, my A is.
For me this program has given me peace that I didn't have before. I get to have so many more good days and for that I'm truly grateful.
Wow did you post what I've been thinking a lot about.
I posted a question yesterday and have been doing so much thinking about the answers.
To me to detach is in effect saying I have to accept him as he is, as I do not have the ability to change him. I can only change me.
I will never leave a drunk behind the wheel if I can physically stop it, no more than I would walk away from a person who needs CPR without performing it. It is my responsibility, no, but can I live with the possible consequenses, again no.
A few months back, a tenant who was living across the street from me, was messed up on something and throwing burning cardboard out on his porch. We called the fire department and reported it. As we waited for them to come, the guy kept throwing more things out on the porch and the fire grew. A neighbor and I each filled buckets and went and threw water on the flames. Was it our responsibility, no, but we could not just stand there and watch it burn like the guy did. Soemtimes we have an obligation if not legally, morally to ourselves to do more. To try and do what is right. Sometimes it may come back and bite you in the butt, but when we stop trying we stop being human.
I think of my own life. In thinking honestly, I know I am doing my part to make things to easy on my husband. I cannot change his drinking or his behavior. I cannot allow him to suffer the consequenses of his actions, because realistically I know his Mom will prevent that. What I stop she will pick up.
When I look at things honestly, I know I act out of fear. If I don't do the things that I do, the consequenses will fall soley on the kids and I. I have no ability to stop his Mother from making him comfortable. She will not change. By sticking to the deal with the devil I have made at least the kids and I can continue to live semi comfortably. I can't amke him be accountable, but I can make me be accountable. Am I a fool for going to work sick and busting my tail while he lives the high life? Yes!
But I had six children, my choice. It is my responsibility, not the States to support them. If I stop paying the benefits or keeping the car insured, and he stops giving me the unemployment, tehn what. Does he suffer, no utilities? No we do.
I have little guys who play sports and a child in college and 2 girls going to Prom. I can go to family court, and play this out, and maybe lose my house, and maybe my car. And maybe he will get another DUI while uninsured. I will be penalized, the house we own jointly can go. But he will have money to spend from Mommy and a warm bed and food in his belly. She will pay a lawyer and as always he will spend no time in jail. (He has had 5 arrests and a very expensive lawyer has gotten most reduced). The kids can miss out on sports, (ok not the end of the world). My son can miss out on College, my daughters can not get to go to prom. Ok none of these things are life threatening. They are just things that I have worked to be able to give my children. Things they deserve, things they have done nothing to deserve losing.
I live in a house of cards. One sick day, means a lot to the kids and I. There is no extra. I have been able to maintain just enough to keep us going. With this many kids, I cannot get a rental for what my house costs. I know I am trapped, and in a jail of my own making. I know I have the choice to pull the plug, but the only ones who will suffer will be the kids and I. She will not allow him to suffer. I can't change that.
I am trying to find options to get ahead. to break free. I am trying to save some money. Things come up, Prescriptions for the kids, Dr copays etc. I hope and plan ofr the day I can do it alone, and tell them both to go to h%ll. But I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel any time soon.
I agree, the only way to detach is to get out. But the question is how.
So okay I will accept the things I cannot change.
I will detach.
I can allow him to suffer the consequenses of his own actions. I do that, his Mother will stop it and make sure the only ones suffering any consequenses are the kids and I.
I have one question that has been nagging at me lately. Alanon tells me to worry about me and take care of me. Okay, Well he is going to worry about him and take care of him, and his Mom will help him.
Who takes care of the children? Who takes care of the only innocent victims in this whole mess?
Is it fair to do what is right, at their expense?
I know I'm rambling, I'm just really confused lately.
Part of me wants to hug you for posting this. I really needed to read that bit about acceptance at this moment. I actually came on to send a message to someone, but I have always enjoyed your posts, so I stopped to read it. The bit about acceptance was beautiful to my hurting soul.
DIVA SAID, "This is the same as saying, "accept unacceptable behavior because you can't change it." If a person believes this to be true, he/she sooner or later must collapse under the weight of it all. We are told that we cannot change the behavior of the addict or alcoholic, so we must accept the A as he/she is...that's it...help me to do that God...period. "
I needed to hear that. It reminded me that when I stay out of his business and let him continue down his path, he gets where he needs to be and so do I. My acting out when he acts unacceptable alows him to focus on me, and alows me to take the focus off of me. Which to me focusing on him, and not me is not acceptable.
Ok about the calling if he is driving drunk.
To me enabling is treating my "A" different because he is my "A" and is an "A". If I knew that anyone else is driving under the influence do I call the cops, I sure do. If they hurt someone that is all on them, but if I knew it was a possibility, and didn't do anything, then I am not sure I could live with myself. I know it wouldn't be my fault that he hit someone, but could I live with it? I also think about my kids, I would hope that someone would call if they knew someone that was dangerous should not be on the road. I have called the cops before, on other people, not my "A". My "A" doesn't leave the house drunk, he just gets spun on meth and doesn't come home period. I usually have the car. But if he was home and left drunk/ high and was driving I would call. Heck the car is in my name, wouldn't I be held accountable legally? Not sure, but morally I would.
This is just my opinion, hope I didn't offend anyone.
Much Love,
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"Today's problems can not be solved if we still think the way we did when we created them" -Albert Einstein
I also have a very hard time with both of these things!!
I know I must accept that I cannot change him/his choices. Yes I have to deal with the consequences, but then so does he. I find that I take alot of his consequences away because the pain I would have to bear is too much for me. I know he is at a point right now that until he hits another bottom nothing will change. To me this is very scary--what is his bottom. Bills not paid (I can't afford that, everything is in my name--therefore that bottom won't come because I can't alllow that!!!), jail time (what do I do when he calls wanting me to bail him out--not do it? I don't know I guess I'll just make that decision if and when it gets here), failing body (he has had a cold for weeks now, feeling miserable and wonders why he can't get better---well DUH!!!!!??????)--this will leave me with more mounting bills.
The past two days have actually been pretty good for me. I know he is not where he needs to be, I know that when and if given chances to use he will and does. This hurts and scares me, but for some miraculous reason I have not been crying or talking to him. I let him know what is going on with the family, let him know we really him to be a part and then let him decide what to do without saying anything else. (Now how long this will last I don't know I could fall apart tomorrow!!) Last night I was staring into space just vegging and he said "what's wrong with you, you look high" I took that opportunity to kind of poke fun at him and I said no if I were high I would be saying "DId you hear that, what was that? Somebody's here, yes they are don't you hear that? Don't lie to me, what was that?" (THis was basically word for word from the last time I saw him on a "bad" paranoid high.) He said ha, ha, you are so funny, you just don't understand. I am holding a gun to my head and I don't want to I just can't stop. I told him try being on my side--I'm watching it all go down and there is absolutely nothing I can do but watch you do it and then pick up all the millions of pieces you leave behind. Then I just said that's enough talk, I don't want to discuss it anymore, and I love you.
Detaching--you got me!! I hope eventually to det that understanding!!!
For me, "accept the things I cannot change" is not the same as "accept unacceptable behavior because you can't change it." I have heard over and over in Al-Anon that we do NOT have to accept unacceptable behavior, that we should not, that we teach others how to treat us by our own actions. If I am accepting of unacceptable behavior, then what am I teaching others? That they can act any way they want towards me, walk all over me, etc. This is not acceptable to me. True, I cannot change anyone but myself. True there are some facets of my A's behavior (and my kids too for that matter!) that I would like to see changed, but they are the only ones who can change themselves. I can express my feelings, I can lead by example, I can also say "if you choose to act this way then you will have to leave". We have recently done that with our two oldest kids. They refuse to conform to house rules, therefore they now have to move out and are currently apartment hunting. I do not have to allow them to remain in my home with their unacceptable behavior. My A once grabbed at me - I picked up the phone and called the police. He now knows I will not accept any sort of physical violence and has not lifted a finger to me since. He and my oldest son got into it one night (there was fault on both sides) and again I called the police. I made it clear that I would not accept this happening ever again regardless of the provocation. As another member said, we each need to determine what is acceptable to us and what isn't. My sponsor tells me "if you can't accept it then leave it, if you can't leave it then you better find a way to accept it." I would not stay in a physically violent situation. To me that is like playing russian roulette with my life and the life of my children. Yes, there was that one incident with my son, and I would have said "no more" at that time if it were not for how they both acted afterwards. They both sincerely acknowledged their part, their wrongdoing, that it should never happen again. I did not listen to just the words - I watched the actions for quite some time after. I feel comfortable in my decision to still be here in the relationship. Of course I also realize this is a progressive disease so I keep that in mind. I went and took a real estate course and got my real estate agents license and am finishing up the other two courses I need for that. I have begun to set aside some money in a separate account, a little "egg nest". Should things progress and it becomes impossible to stay in the relationship, I know the kids and I will be okay.
Thus far though, I would have to say that my relationship with the A has actually improved and gets better the more I work this program and apply it to our life. I used to be that shrew who you would hate to come home to - I have changed myself and the A has responded to that change by drinking less and interacting more with me. We went from constant fighting (verbal) to laughing and joking once again. That 4th C - but I can Contribute to the disease - I learned here in Al-Anon how NOT to contribute to it any more. That came with Detachment with Love. I stopped reacting, I dropped that ball rather than catching it and throwing it right back, I refused to play the game anymore. I realized most of what he was saying was what he felt about himself and that in his own way he was just venting, much like what I do when I come in here and need to get something off my chest and maybe hear some other points of views and see if perhaps my perspective just needs changing. Also some of the things that he said were actually true, and when I acknowledged that it diffused the whole thing. You see, I was just as sick back then and would attack back with hurtful words rather than take a look at myself and see if there were any truth to the matter. It was an awful game we played - "you this, you that". We are learning how to discuss these things now rather than attack one another. We are learning to listen to each other's points of views, to be understanding of one another. I have learned that I can't expect him to be thinking rationally when he's been drinking, that it was actually rather foolish of me to think that way. That came with learning about this disease and how it affects one. Knowledge is a wonderful thing - the more you have, the better equipped you are to know how to deal with life, to know what choices/options you have, etc. When he gets into his drinking and is starting to "vent" is when I lovingly detach - I do not try to "fix" his mood or the problems he may speak of...I just let him vent and if he starts attacking me (with words) I either respond with "you may be right, I need to work on that" or "you are taking my inventory and I don't need to listen to this" and I walk away and go do something for me. When I remain calm and not react emotionally, it blows over. Funny thing is, I notice lately that he seems to think about it and has begun to apologize when he feels he was wrong. He also seems to catch himself quicker (more awareness) when he is starting the "blame game" and stops.
I don't have much to say about the driving drunk. I had already made the boundary that my car was off limits if he were drunk, he'd have to take his own car. He is actually pretty good these days about not driving when he's drunk. He buys his bottle and drinks at home then goes to bed. Years ago he was out at a casino, got kicked out, called me ranting how they wouldn't let him call a cab and he was forced to drive drunk... (LOL)... I called the police and they basically said they couldn't do a thing. Sheesh.
Well goodness, this has turned into a novel...think I'll quit for now. Good topics, thanks!
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Let your light shine in the darkness. "I can't just bring my mind to meetings...I must also bring my heart."
To me "accept the things I cannot change" hinges on the 'cannot change' aspect. Beating our heads against a brick wall, trying to change something that we have no power over, does no one any good. The question is not "How do I stop the A from dishing it out ?" and is instead. "Do I keep taking it?" One of these things I have power over, the other I do not.
About detachment - I feel that I started to detach when I stopped feeling that he was doing these things to hurt me. When I realized that it had very little to do with me. Then I was able to see which behaviours I actually could not stand, and which ones really didn't matter to me. Before I learned some detachment, I was actually not making too much sense, in what I wanted and expected from my A.
For instance - my husband works out of town a lot. So, say he would be out of town on a job. I knew that he would spend the evening in the bar, and stumble to his motel room drunk. This didn't bother me at all, I never thought about it. However, say he was NOT out of town. Then his spending the evening at the bar and coming home drunk bothered me a lot. What's the difference? Well, one difference is that when he's out of town, he can't be home with me anyway, so it doesn't hurt my feelings that he chooses the bar, instead of me. However, the reality is that he could often have not taken the out of town job. I didn't resent it that he took out of town work, in fact I kinda liked it. So, the element of choice is there - he is choosing to not be with me, and I don't really mind. I was being unreasonable in attaching hurtful value to one of these choices, and not minding the other. What is the other difference? It is, of course, that when he stumbles home to a motel, I'm not there to be woken up, perhaps yelled at, and I don't have to put up with his hangover the next day. What I really didn't like about his evenings at the bar was having to deal with his drunk self. Once I detached enough from the "How can he do this to me boo hoo" and really thought about where my problem with his behaviour lay, we came to a solution. First, I stopped planning things to do in the evening that needed his presence - if he was home for a meal, or an activity, and wanted to join in, he was welcome. If he wasn't there, we did it anyway. That took care of a lot of resentment. Then he started sleeping in the other room when he came home drunk (this was something that just happened without any input from me- I took it as a blessing from God to show me that I was on the right track). I didn't have to be woken up, we didn't have big drunken fights in the middle of the night, I woke up rested and without the memory of horrible things happening the night before., This meant that I left him to enjoy his hangover in peace, instead of what I had been doing before - "Well, do you remember what you did to me last night, you jerk?" Much nicer for everybody. If I had not detached, I would have stayed in the cycle of resentment, anger and retribution which had been so damaging.
To me, there are really only two ways to go when dealing with this disease - you change yor attitude or you change your address. Either we find ways to live with what IS, and still have some joy in life, and some love for the A, (and detachment and acceptance are key to this) or we free ourselves from the unacceptable mess. Both are valid. What does not work is staying with an active A, not learning any ways to deal with the reality of his illness, and spending our lives shaking our fists at the sky, trying to change something that we have no power over.
Whew! Very interesting discussion! I don't feel qualified to speak to a lot of these issues, however, I can't let the drunk driving issue go. I pretty much just let my AW do what she wants to do when she is drinking and just stay out of the way. If it ever came to the point where she wanted to drive while drinking, I could not sit by and let that happen. In my profession, I get to see the tragic results of drinking and driving almost on a dailey basis. If we think that we have emotional problems dealing with our A's, just try to imagine how we would feel if we let our A drive drunk and an innocent family was killed or maimed. Do you not think that we would wonder the rest of our lives if we could have prevented it from happening. I refuse to allow that to happen if I have any way to stop it. Most everything else I can let go, but not that. Just my thoughts.
We are told that we cannot change the behavior of the addict or alcoholic, so we must accept the A as he/she is..........Why on earth should I accept what is unacceptable?
Answer.....when you have done as deep a search within yourself to determine what is or is not important in your life, truly important (How important is it???) then you also have to decide what is or is not acceptable to you. Now look at those around you, are they doing things to you that you have determined you are no longer going to accept? If so you both have a choice. You can decide to communicate with them what they are doing that is unacceptable, and put the ball in their court so to speak. If they choose to continue their unacceptable behavior/actions (as is their free choice to do so) then something has to change. The unacceptable has to be removed from you life. Whatever it takes! Remember, this is UNACCEPTABLE behavior! Period.
I know for me I have to look at what is truly unacceptable! Again deciding for myself, how important is this issue really. Is it just an inconvience or annoyance...or is it something that harms me physically, emotionally, spiritually. Then I have to act accordingly.
Thanks for Posting Diva, and everyone! Great topic!!
About this topic...do you want the good news or the bad news first? Let's start with the good news...
The good news is..., this is a disease so it's not about you.
The bad news is..., this is a disease so it's not about you.
Stinks, huh? It's a no-win situation! So...not only do I have to invent a new game..., now I have to learn to follow my rules! I had to learn to think about ME. What a concept. Once I came to understand that I couldn't make anyone else follow my rules...I was stuck playing the game alone. I got used to it, and now I can't imagine it any other way. As an 'ex' classic co-dependent, the fun part was learning that it's perfectly healthy and good to 'accept' that...it can be and should be... ALL ABOUT ME. YEAH! For alcoholics, in order to find thier steadfast path to recovery - the opposite holds true. Unless or until they find true humility, and we find true 'healthy' selfishness...the cycle continues and/or repeats.
I struggle with the whole acceptance thing, too. I have come to realize that it comes down to choices. What can I live with, and what can't I? Just give me the facts - and I'll make a choice. The fact when it comes to 'acceptance' is...I can't change anyone but myself. Given that fact, I now have to ask what can *I* do for *myself* that will bring me the best, most satisfactory results?
In my case, I chose not to accept unacceptable behavior. Disease or not, I won't accept anything less than I deserve...ever again.
Hello, Diva and all, What a great question and topic. I certainly still - after many years, have a hard time accepting many things. But I have come to think that acceptance of what is, is the most powerful thing in the Universe. It seems that when I am able to accept something for what it is, God and the Universe moves! Acceptance for me is the breaking of my denial, so that I can begin to "live life on life's terms." It doesn't mean accepting unacceptable behavior to me; instead, it means I have accepted what is, so that I can make choices in response that fit me and my boundaries. That's one of the most important things I've learned in Alanon. Blessings to you, and thanks for all of your posts, Diva. Blessings, mebjk
All of you have treated this subject with respect and kindness, and I thank you for that. Each of you casts a slightly different view, and all who have responded have added immeasurably to this most interesting discussion. It is enlightening to take a look through another's eyes, and add that enlightenment to our own thinking.
I pray that someday I will have the grace that some of you display. Who knows? Maybe someday I will understand this thing called addiction. I am limping along in that direction, and I am grateful for all the help you continue to give me.
After five years of being with an A, this is still a new path for me. I haven't any history of alcoholism in my family or among my friends, so have no personal experiences to draw from. Loving someone who abuses alcohol was not in my life's plan, but I guess it was in God's plan for me.
Thanks again, Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Well to me there is only one solution , I can accept that he is an Alcoholic and that I am not powerfull enough to make him start or stop. or i can keep banging myhead up against a brick wall and end up sicker than ever. Loving detachment works (sure beats indifference) I can accept him as he is or not. yu ask about standing back and just letting them drink , well u cant stop them and u can try to get the keys away from a drunk most won't give them up =if u try u have done your part . now let go
I have a friend who says If you can't accept what is going on Leave it - If you can't leave it you damn well better find away to accept it. If you have a Big Book of AA handy there is a paragraph on acceptance that I read every day for a yr til I was finally able to work it . Pg 449
That line of thinking will save u alot of sleepless nites and headaches. We all have choices. something I didn't realize til I got to this program.
I've been at this crossroad w/ my A before and I'm here now. Accept the things I can not change does not mean accept unacceptable behavior. It just means to accept that you can not change the A's behavior. It does not mean that you must accept being treated uncacceptably. The program teaches us that we may set limits and boundries. We can even chose to leave the A if that is best for us.
The beauty of the program is that what is right for us all is different. But one thing the program HAS taught me is that I do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. I told that to my wife and her psych ward clinician last week and the clinician gave me an almost alanon like nod. LOL
Bob
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
You bet we all have choices abbyal, which is why I chose to divorce my A. Doesn't mean I don't care about him...just means I don't choose to be married to him.
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
It is interesting the different areas that we have difficulty applying or understanding or accepting, or whatever. I have no difficulty accepting and applying the principal of acceptance. It doesn't mean that I am going to accept that which is unacceptable. To me it means that there is no point in beating a dead horse and I must find a different solution.
I have difficulty with the detach with love concept. I cannot fathom how to detach with love. When I detach I detach completely. I cannot love you. I cannot hate you. I simply cannot care, because I have detached. I have reached that point with my a. I expect that he is going to drink. I don’t care. He thinks he is hurting me by drinking to excess. He is not hurting me. I have detached. He says I don’t love him any more. He is correct. How can I love him, I have detached?
I don’t understand why I would want to love someone who places me in a situation where I must detach. It would create cognitive dissonance within me to both love and detach at the same time. I would much prefer to love someone that I am attached to.
I am attached to my dog. I will love him instead. It is more pleasant.
