The material presented
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I'm so glad there is place like this where there are people who understand this terrible disease. I had a brother who lived with me and was an alcoholic. He died recently this past August from end stage liver failure at the age of 57. I'm having tremendous problems dealing with it. He knew he had liver problems for many years but didn't get any symptoms until 2 or 3 years ago. He lived with me for a long time and I was the one who basically helped with his health problems. I got him to doctor appointments, tests, other procedures, and the emergency room when he needed it. His last 3 or 4 days at my house,before he went to ICU, were spent laying on my couch where he usually slept. Normally he was at least somewhat up and about. At first I got concerned when I noticed he had not taken his latest dose of pills. I gave him his pills but he was very groggy. He got them down, but not easily.I went about my usual business around the house (I'm retired). I kept checking on him from time to time. He seemed to be sleeping most of the time. He hadn't been drinking because he hadn't left the house in this whole time. He did have some pain pills from his doctor that could have made him groggy but I don't know if he took any of them and I didn't give him any. I could see him rolling around under the covers, so I assumed he was OK. I asked him once if he was OK and he grumpily said that yes he was fine.. I was still concerned about him but just wasn't sure what to do or if I needed to do anything. Something definitely seemed wrong, but I thought maybe I was overreacting, because sometimes I do overreact to things. His TV usually was on 24 hours a day which was normal, but he hadn't changed the channel this whole time(3 or 4 days).Unusual. I never saw him leave the couch but figured maybe he have been getting up to eat at night while I was asleep or while I was out doing my stuff around the house. I continued giving him his medications and keeping an eye on him. Same thing as before, seemed to be rolling around in bed was groggy and had difficulties taking his meds. On the 4th day he ended up collapsing on my kitchen floor. He was trying to get a glass of water, which I got for him. Then I called EMS.They took him to the local emergency room where he was given blood and then transferred to ICU. He died about 10 days later after one day in hospice. I'm just wracked with guilt.Looking back, it seems obvious I should have done something sooner. I think I should have called his doctor for instructions or just called EMS sooner. With this disease there are so many crises sometimes you just get confused and don't know what to do.I never failed him in the past. Always got him to the emergency room or wherever he needed to be. Got little help from my family or anyone else. People just didn't seem to care because he was an alcoholic. I'm seeing a psychologist now who says I have nothing to feel guilty about. He seems to think my brother knew he was dying and didn't want to go to the hospital in the first place. I just don't know. Maybe I should have asked my brother this question, but I didn't. An ICU nurse told me that my brother was in end stage liver disease and even if he were to have survived this incident, he probably still wouldn't have survived much longer. Hospice nurse told me that it probably wouldn't have made a difference even if he would have been brought in earlier. Can anyone tell me how to deal with this? Have any of you ever dealt with anything like this before.? I just can't stand any more guilt. I really didn't expect him to die.
Hi John: I had an uncle who died of cirrhosis of the liver at age 44 and a cousin at age 46. From what I understand the nurses are correct that once you are at end stage liver failure there is nothing else that can be done. I can understand you feeling guilty though. I also lost my brother to a heroin OD 10 years ago and have some guilt just for the simple fact that I wish I did more to help him. Time will ease your pain.
Welcome John I am so very sorry to read of the loss of your brother. It is good that you reached out and shared your pain and deep concerns. I can completely relate to your situation, as my son passed from this dreadful disease at the age of 42 and I was his care giver. I often called the ambulance when I feared for him and he would refuse to leave the home .They would not force him.
The night he passed I thought I should call again but a small voice within suggested that I leave him be , give a drink of water, tell him I loved him and that was enough I did just that and in the morning he was gone.
I assure you you have nothing to feel guilty about. Your brother was safe and secure in your home during his final days. He knew he was loved and that he was not alone. You gave him a very precious gift and for that you should never fell guilty about .
I thank HP every day that I could be with my son during his last days and that he knew he was loved.
Alanon meetings, sponsors, the Steps all helped me to reconcile my loss and so I suggest that you search out alanon face to face meetings in your communities and attend. In addition to therapy please remember all that he medical professionals informed you of as they were correct. Your brother, like my son was in end stage of this dreadful disease and any action you might have taken would not have changed the outcome. Please keep coming back
First of all I want to say how terrible sorry I am for your loss. I completely understand when you say that with this disease there is so many crisis that you become confused and do not know what to do. Sometimes I over react sometime I think I under react and second guess everything I do . The thing is you did the best you could for your brother. You are not responsible for his life or his death as hard as that is to accept. At any time while he was still conscious he could have chose to ask you to call the EMS, or indicate that he needed help, he did not. We will likely never know the why answer to that. I too lost a brother to this disease. Any single one of us in our family would have done what we could to save his life, he chose differently. I struggled with that for a long time, looking for what I had missed, what I could have said or done differently. There was nothing. My parents tried for years to help him, they could not. I will pray for your brother to be released from his suffering from this awful disease and I will pray for you to also be released from your personal pain. Take care of yourself.
Welcome John. You've received good advice. You're right. This is a good place.
What might you tell your beloved nephew or a dear friend who felt as you do after providing so much for your brother? You wouldn't say "oh you're wrong to feel as you do". Feelings are valid. You might gently encourage him to let himself off the hook. I will pray you can find the comfort Betty experienced knowing her son knew he was loved and with his loving family. That is huge, and you provided that to your own brother. working through this is completely worth it.
Hugs! I feel your guilt and pain..my sister died in 4/5/13..The crazy part was she was getting her life back on track..just started a great job, the weekend before she had been by to show me her new car. We talked about road trips lol..I got a call on Monday..mom's in the hospital..I was like oh lawd..she got a DWI and was in a wreck.
So I went to the gym and then to the hospital..she was already intubated and in icu..I remember collapsing
Spent a week in icu..trying to explain to the rest of the family (addicts and alcoholics) that there was nothing that could be done..I was there when she took her last breath..
I beat myself up because I remember getting a strange call from her earlier but I didn't go check on her..maybe if I had, she'd still be alive..The hospital assured me that wasn't the case she was already in liver failure (popped tylenol pm like skittles) and there was nothing that could be done.
Losing a sibling hard to explain..we used to go shoe shopping..I remember the first time I walked into our favorite store..walked right back out and fell apart in the car..
Will is get better, nope, hell I'm trying not to cry as I type this..but you'll be able to cope..I used to tell myself today I'll cry after work instead of every 30 minutes..
Bottom line..take care of yourself..find something that makes you happy..
Welcome John to MIP - so glad you found us and glad you shared.
I am so sorry for your loss. I agree with what Betty's stated - there is no goodness in passing from this life to the next, but when he left, he was loved and not alone. That has more meaning I believe than we could ever, ever know. You showed grace and allowed him to live/pass with dignity.
This disease is brutal and it can be fatal. That's a hard fact that sucks. There's no better words in my mind than it just sucks. My hope is that his pain and suffering are long gone and he's at peace with freedom from the bondage of this disease.
The baffling part of this disease for me - I had an uncle who passed away in his 50(s). He had attempted recovery many, many times for more than 20 years. He was never able to stay sober and he was as sad/baffled/confused as anybody. He thought he was doing what was required, yet found himself over and over again in the throws of active alcoholism. If you've never been to an open AA meeting, it might help you accept that you are powerless over the disease as well as the outcome of the disease. The Big Book also has many stories that talk about the compulsion of the disease. Some are able to find and keep sobriety and recovery and some are not.
Many who are not affected/afflicted with the disease believe it's a choice. Recovery is a choice, but the compulsion for some never goes away and the disease wins.
You did your best. It was enough. He was blessed to have you. I am sorry for your loss and hope you can find peace soon. I am certain he would not want you to feel any fault/blame!!
Keep coming back - you are not alone!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I took care of both my parents during their final illnesses (which we didn't know were final at the time), and since then I've known many people who took care of ill people who passed away.
It's my experience that in 100% of those cases, the carer has to cope with regret and guilt over some part of the situation. Because in retrospect, after more is known, there are always those ambiguous "What if?" points. Points where you can feel racked with guilt about "If only I had gotten him to the hospital sooner... checked the details ... asked him X ... insisted on Y ... made sure the doctor did Z ..."
They are symptoms of our grief and sorrow and fervent wish that our loved one could have been saved.
The truth is that we did the very best we could with what we knew at the time. The grief for their passing is strong. But we shouldn't let it take us apart.
I also have been haunted by feelings of "Why did I ask these questions? Why didn't I say these important things? Why wasn't I kinder? Why did I lose my temper that time(s)?" And many others. My wise therapist said, "There are always questions you didn't ask. There are always things you wish you'd said." That's the human condition. We have never asked every question that could be asked or said everything that could be said.
I've also read, and seen it confirmed, that people often divide into underfunctioners and overfunctioners. The more one person underfunctions, the more the other person overfunctions in compensation.
Your brother, from your description, was an underfunctioner. That's typical for an alcoholic. So you, like many of us on these boards, most likely took over parts of his functioning in order to keep things going. And he kept that dynamic going by continuing to underfunction. Even to the point of seriously not taking care of his health. (That's also so typical of an alcoholic.) The problem here is that the overfunctioner then can feel guilty for not overfunctioning enough to keep the underfunctioner from experiencing any consequence of his decisions. We want to protect them from everything in the world. But their choice to drink and keep drinking means that their bodies will respond as bodies do. There is no way any other person can fend that off. But you shouldn't take your traditional role as an overfunctioner to mean that you have somehow failed in not saving him from the inevitable health consequences of drinking. No overfunctioner can be that powerful. Overfunctioning gives us a history of taking responsibility. But this is one thing you can't realistically take responsibility for. I know how painful that is for someone who can be proud of keeping it all going for so long. But it's the unfortunate truth. Whatever decisions you made on those final days, no human being is powerful enough to stave off the consequences of someone else's drinking.
Please take good care of yourself.
-- Edited by Mattie on Thursday 19th of November 2015 07:41:54 PM
I too would like to welcome you to MIP and extend my condolences to you for the lose of your brother. I do not have any ESH concerning end stage liver disease, but it would seem to me that feeling that you were somehow responsible for his death is a heavy weight to carry. You were his caretaker for quite a while and maybe, you just plain miss him. Totally understandable. Wishing you peace.
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"Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it
does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
Welcome! I am so sorry to hear of your lose. I'm also sorry that you are holding this guilt...my AH has been told by several doctors that he has liver damage from too much alcohol. One doctor told him that if he continues to drink, one day he will get bad and there will be nothing they can do for him. I assume this would also be the case with your brother. Sadly I don't think you could have changed the outcome had you done anything differently. It is a very sad disease indeed. Again, sorry for the loss of your brother. I'm sure this is a very hard time.
Thank you for sharing this, Mattie. I have been looking through grief comments to find some comfort and this helped me. My longtime companion passed away in the spring from cirrhosis. He was so talented, so open-hearted, so kind and caring but neglected his health, repeatedly refusing to pursue medical care until was in pain. What complicated things was his lack of access to health care...we didn't realize he probably was eligible for medicaid. Twelve years ago he had asked me to marry him. At that point, he would have been covered by my healthcare. He was drinking so much then, though, that I didn't think I could continue to live with him. Sometimes he would bcome belligerent with my family or friends and that created problems. He never considered the possibility of quitting. He was a poet/artist...an excellent one, but we know how little that pays. He worked as a bartender off and on and we know how that can be for an alcoholic. I couldn't handle witnessing the self-destruct going on so I asked him to move out. He drifted from one friend's house to another for five years. We remained close. Over the last two years before his passing, he would call me every morning at sunrise to see where I was taking our dog (to the park,the river, the wading pool) and we would meet there, then go to my house for breakfast, then go on with our day. WHen got sick, I told him he had to move back. He did, briefly,but then went to visit his family to help with his elderly father's move to a nursing home. While staying alone in his Dad's condo, he passed away. He knew he was at end stage liver disease but had asked a friend of ours, a doctor, (he had released his records to her) not to tell me how bad it was. I had sent him a ticket to come home but he died ten days before the flight. Our 14 year old dog gives me reason to go on but he is failing. How do we go on?
Welcome Mary, as you have read alcoholism is a progressive, fatal disease over which we are powerless. Alanon face to face meetings held in most communities helped me to process my grief, acknowledge my guilt while providing a supportive nework of members who truly understood Please search out meetings and attend and keep coming back. There is hope .
I too welcome you to MIP Mary - glad you found us and glad that you shared. I am sorry for your loss and hope you feel less alone by finding MIP. There is hope and help in recovery...keep coming back!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
i believe some of what we feel when someone commits suicide is Survivor guilt. I am not meaning to infer that your brother killed himself but really drinking yourself to death is suicide.
I have been around a lot of alcoholics. Separating yourself from their life is very tough stuff. I think I kind of merge with the alcoholic into one unit to try to fight the disease.
These days I no longer feel guilty about any alcoholic's self abuse. I don't feel it is my mission to cure them.
I can understand that in taking care of someone who didn't take care of themselves there is a need to find something worthy in being so diligent. I have certainly been more than diligent in taking care of an alcoholic on so many levels. That diligence started when I was a child and continued until I was a mature adult. (mature being in age not in mentality).
Maybe its time to give some of the diligence that you gave so willingly and unselfishly to your brother to yourself. Treat yourself, cherish yourself, be kind to yourself.
Addiction claims people every day, generally it is not pretty. You deserve to be treasured, to be comforted, to be cared for. Rather than beating yourself up, which is the norm for so many of us who have
neglect ourselves, it is time to put down the stick.
Letting go of an alcoholic is really difficult stuff. Finding allies in your healing is a big job. In the meantime, you can be your one and true ally in much the same way you were always there for him right through to the end. Now you can be"there' for yourself in this time of grief.
Welcome to the board Mary and (((((hugs)))))....Alcohol and alcoholism provides at times both the pain and the mercy as alcohol is anesthetic. My experience with it gave me the understanding that suicide with alcohol was the most comfortable and peaceful form I could imagine. I felt no pain at all and was too mentally deranged to worry about what was happening. I couldn't have cared less. That was to a point merciful and how it came out was that I didn't have that one ounce too much that took me over the edge. It just closed my systems down and later I found myself still alive. Because of the mercy of the program I am more alive than that morning in Samoa where I experience the toxic shock. Stay with MIP Mary...there is so much to learn and experience.
Welcome, EMS. I am sorry for your loss, and glad you found us. If you wish, it is perfectly OK to start your own post and share your story, your feelings -- as much or as little as you like.
I too lost a loved one from this disease, and I have found it very helpful to share my story here. Please know you are not alone. Everyone here understands.
Hello, thank you so much for your reply. Im so pleased with a response.
Thank you, I think It would really help to share my story with all the supportive people on here. Ill write my story soon and write it onto a new post.
im so sorry for your loss too, its so tragic. Thank you so much for telling me Im not alone here and for the support, it really helps.
I am sorry to everyone in this group who has gone through this or people who are going through this. I look forward to sharing support. Ill be sharing my story soon
I don't know who brought the fruition of this discussion to the board this morning. It, for me is magical and rides along and into my morning meditation as I was getting up. I woke up with gratitude, lots of it for the program and all of its tools and positive events since I agreed to get over my resistance and stay within the rooms of the family groups which has become astronomical to my life. To see Johns name and Betty's and the others who were here to say "keep coming back" over and over and over again.
To meditate and remember my daily journey and then continue it with the daily readings and prayers is awesome and then to go to the window and watch the work of HP to continue His love for me and so many others in ways I am powerless over.
I feel deep gratitude for everything and one who has kept me alive these years including John's brother. For all of you who have been here for me. Mahalo for your unconditional love. (((((hugs)))))
I hsve lost many people to.drug/,alcohol related illnesses.
The carnage is terrible.
Liver.disease is s long slow killer
There are chances to get out of the process. For some people the disease is absolutely unrelenting. Every effort to reach them comes to nothing.
I am glad you made it to this group. Therr is much wisdom and growth here.
I am glad you have made it to this safe warm challenging space
Maresie
I dont necessarily feel guilt (at the moment) because I tried everything in my power to get my brother to realize what he was doing to himself. He would not hear it. Dustin passed away 3 weeks ago from this deeply sad, socially encouraged, tragic disease. He was only 36 (bartender) and I was there with him holding his hand when he took his last breath. I went to see him every single day that he was in ICU and everyday I made sure to tell him I loved him, that he was a good brother, and he told me the same. Just like other people have said, you cant feel guilt if you tried the best you could with what was presented to you, but that doesnt mean it doesnt hurt. Immensely. Im starting to realize the hole in my heart will never be healed from this pain. But it is comforting to know that I am not alone and unfortunately a lot of people have gone through this awful experience. Reading everyones posts somehow brings some comfort when I need it most, so to everyone on this thread, thank you. Hang in there.
Markm - welcome to MIP ... So glad you found us and so glad that you shared. I am so, so sorry for the loss of your brother to this disease. I applaud you for being with him through his illness and his death. May you find comfort in the thought he's no longer suffering. Sending you tons of positive thoughts and prayers as you grieve...Keep coming back - you're not alone!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Welcome to the board Mark and glad you reached out and hope you come by and read and share daily. I know that with the present Corona19 virus lots has changed and still besides the ZOOM meetings which are available to the membership there may still be face to face groups around your neighborhood. Those meeting are what saved my sanity and life when I first decided I could not go this alone.
Alcoholics don't often have family, friends and others abide with them as the disease ends their lives yet in your brother's case he did...he had you and that blessing always trumps the insanity and loneliness and shame and guilt that is so often in the room. I learned that the opposite of guilt was often found in empathy which is what I share now. Feeling with.
Experience, strength and hope being sent your way including prayers. Keep coming back.
The holidays are a hard time to be experiencing loss. So many people seem to be having sweet and indelible moments with their spouse.
I find Christmas a hard time to look back and to look forward.
Last year was like no other. I was impossibly triggered and lost in what was present and what was past. Being flooded which is what happens with ptsd is very difficult to navigate.
I am so grateful to be able to make it through those times.
Many many people have navigated the loss of a family member to this disease
My qualifier lost a brother to this disease a few months after I left him. Both his mother and the qualifier responded by simply writing him out of their lives. They simply swung to a point where he never existed. He was never spoken of again.
I tried for 8 long years to make a relationship with someone who could not even acknowledge his brother killed himself. Talk about going for the impossible.
In this group there are many of us who have lost significant family members to this disease.
You can certainly count on getting a coherent empathic response. How wonderful to be.around people who are.not wholly self absorbed, selfish and entirely incoherent to top it all. It is like they need every square inch of oxygen in the room.
I am glad you are here and reaching out for empathy. Welcome
Maresie.
There are many helpful responses to your post, I'm hoping that my response in some minor way will help you too. I am a professional caregiver who had a client that was much like your brother... dying of end stage liver failure due to alcoholism. She laid on the couch and would say over and over "I just want to die" it was a hard thing to watch as a caregiver and I can't imagine what it was like for her brother and her dad, who were her caregivers to the end. I have been married to 3 alcoholics, (and divorced) but was spared this end scene nightmare. I do know one thing, your brother was lucky to have you till the end, that is the true measure of dedication and love.
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I can Overcome all things through my HP who strengthens me.
Thank you for your messages and reading all your experience give me some peace. I lost my brother two weeks ago. Due to long time alcohol misuse he developed jaundice, pnumonia, kidney failure which I knew very little about. He was in and out of hospital since December 2020. I thought it was an alcohol withdrawal as he was trying to come out of it. Due to Covid I couldn't visit him as I am caring my mother who is in very vaunarable stage to catch Covid easily. Last time I saw my brother was October 2020. Then the lock down was in place and I couldn't visit him anymore. I could only do things online such as ordering food and other things he needed. I made sure I kept him comfortably at his home. He had a carer staying with him in the night and week ends. He was single but had amazing circle of friends who really cared for him. But he couldn't stop drinking even though everyone tried their best to keep him out of it. He convinced everyone that he had to drink to be alive. If he stops he will have organ failure. He self discharged himself twice from the hospital in the middle of the treatment. Last time, he stayed at the hospital 10 days. I spoke to him on the phone and promised him I'll bring him home with me if he recovered fully this time. He said okay. But I couldn't keep up my promise as I was only allowed to see him at the hospital on the day he was passing away. I was with him all night through until he had taken his last breath. I now feel guilty of so many things. Not taking him serious well in advance. Not bringing him home sooner to care for him. I even think I could have saved him if I had brought him home in January after he was in the hospital second time. I put my mum first and prioritised her before him. I am guilty of so many things. Including being more kind to him than advice him to quit drinking all the time. I believe that the time is a great healer but when is my big question. Or I had to live with the guilt for my rest of life. I am feeling so down while I write this message. Niv
Welcome to MIP Niv - so glad you found us and so glad that you shared. I am so, so sorry for the loss of your brother and for how it's affecting you. Those of us who have loved an alcoholic can relate to where you are and how you feel. I have had to accept that my love for those affected by this disease is just not enough. If so, they'd all be free, happy, joyous, healthy, etc...just not my experience.
You are enough, you did enough and it's easy to judge ourselves when outcomes are devastating. We are mere imperfect people, doing the best we can. This disease is super powerful, progressing, baffling and cunning. We find that our best efforts are no match for this disease and saving ourselves and being of service is often the best avenue.
I hope you can be gentle with yourself and your grief. I am sending positive, healing energy your way and prayers for peace for you and those who loved your brother. Keep coming back here - read, share, post, etc. - you are not alone!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Hi, I have just finished reading all these sharings, and my heart and prayers goes out to all that are trying to come to terms with the loss of their loved one. I can only hope and pray that you all stay around this program and get/find help for yourselves. As I am dealing with something similar, and it is only my Faith, knowing that God is my Friend and call on Him at any time, Al-Anon that I am able to carry on each day.
For I have a beloved Grand Son, who is out there, somewhere, I know not where. He has been cut off from all of his Family, no one wants to know him. He has Alcohol and Drug Problems..He has lost everything and everyone. For me being in Alanon for a long as I have helps me a great deal, I know I am not alone, even though at times I feel as if I am. All the knowledge that I have heard, learnt about, does it help with the pain of knowing that I am losing him. Wondering where he is, how he is, if he is even still alive. All the Questions that go through my head. Wanting so much to tell him that I love him, and not being able to. I carry the pain, but knowing that I can deal with it a day at a time. For he is worth my tears.
One time I was able to talk to him about his addictions, he did listen to me. But he also knew/heard that I loved him, when so many others couldn't/didn't, for that I am thankful. I hold onto that and the many hugs, that he gave me and I gave him. How do I get through it, so I can have peace for myself. Each day, I place/put him in my Gods hands, knowing that what ever happens, He will look after him, I also ask Him to place people in his life to help him, to be able to bring him peace. I also believe that if it is His Will, He will look down on my Grand Son, and if he is in too much pain, He will look down, and gently say to him, "You have had enough, you are coming Home with Me."That brings me much relief, as I know that My God will not let him or anyone suffer more than they can handle. I won't let the Disease have the last say.
I can certainly relate in every way of how it feels to lose someone with this so horrible Disease.
The end of last year my sister passed from cirrhosis and it is hard to think that she is not on the planet now. The memorial service was partly on Zoom. I had to stay home for many reasons. My sister died at the same age my father was and for the same medical reason. I'm not clear as to how she achieved liver failure so quickly. I'm sure i will hear all sorts of theories when i go visit. Whenever that is.
We have had so much less covid her that i feel a certain survivors guilt. Strange. I also lost a former sister in law recently. I don't know what killed her but she was younger than I am.
I just want to be a part of family and there are fewer and fewer. my heart doesn't know where to put this and my mind cant guide me. It has to be a higher power job
