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So i have said i want divorce. I feel there is no going back. .Two affairs, one with a fam friend and yrs of dysfunction. I need me back, that said my daughter now blames me saying why cant you give daddy another chance. . Ah keeps reminding me of the good. I feel like im dying inside. . This is why ive tried to stay for 17 yrs I kniw there has been good, i know we have a child to think of. . But i cant live with myself anymore. My fmaily of origin has basically said they will all but disown me. .Have him. . If i cave, my daughter sees me as the bad guy and my ah keeps beghgng me to see the good. I resent him and the pics if proof, ive reminded him why im going to the gyn next week to be tested for STDs (cant believe i have to write that)and he still wants to fault me and plead that all hes ever wanted was for me to love him and believes we can fix this. . . Where is the nearest hole. .I want to crawl in it. And just to add. . Ive so tried. . Sadly his alcohilism only got worse as i detached and i pulled further further away .towhich he says. Illget sober,let me show you. . REALLtoo late. . Get sober become a healthy man and fabulous dad. .Im dead insude. .Simply dead. .And he wants cnslg. . Noooooo ive been in therapy and in thse boards for years. .Iam at bybreaking point. Someone will lose it . I am trying to cooperate with him regarding the divorcing pricess which infuriating my family. . But i kniw how urrational this man xan be. . I kniw how devastated he is. . Hellooooo ive been there, he just stopped caring too. . So how do you "cooperatively divorce!. .sounds like a dumb question but im guessing some of you get it when i say i have to cooperate to avoid irrational. . Soory agin for typos
-- Edited by Theoceancalls on Saturday 24th of October 2015 12:35:18 PM
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When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
Nobody said you have to listen to his pleas or your daughter's even. If you have set boundaries, stick to them. Everyone seems to think they can talk you out of your boundaries and what you think is right for you. When you have a clear boundary, that is when you start telling your AH "This is not up for discussion. I've already stated why this has to happen for me." And to your daughter "I know you are upset honey. You love both your parents and that is part of what makes you such a great kid, but this is a difficult adult decision. It's not a child's decision so we aren't discussing it anymore. I love you."
Remember, what comes out of a hurt and scared 9 year old's mouth is not what is necessarily best. And what comes out of the mouth of a very sick, manipulative, cheating alcoholic's mouth who is scare to death of losing his enabler....well...I think you already know...
-- Edited by pinkchip on Saturday 24th of October 2015 11:34:33 AM
I remember thinking, "I will only go with what I know" and no one could fault me for that. It all came out okaymy alcoholic/addict would only talk about it. Keep trying again with the relationship with your HP and let the other stuff go. ((((hugs))))
TOC - I agree with Pinkchip - set your boundaries and detach. Going to meetings, working with a sponsor and working the steps would help you find peace and be strong with your decisions, boundaries and program.
(((Hugs))) and continued prayers. I would do anything/everything possible to keep your daughter out of the adult conversations. A marriage is between 2 adults. A child shouldn't be hearing the discussions and you may need to set boundaries there too. There was a point where my AH would involve my sons in our adult issues, and I would just lovingly tell my boys that I loved them and respected them but I would not discuss my marriage with them.
Hope today is going better for all 3 of you...
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Very hard day. . Its kinda sinking in. . Today we all took boat out if water like we do every fall and yes all cried with the realzation that this would be the last. Husb hugged me and said i built this all for us im just so sorry. He is giving me space tonight and my heart is just breaking. I know giving in will kill me and i may do more damage than good to every relationship ii hacve so i am trying to stay strong. . But im so so very sad. It will be goid to have anger come, i guess
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When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
TOC It is a difficult time I know there is/ has been good but as you said so very clearly you need to leave because in all the efforts to maintain the marriage you lost "YOU"
I can so identify- I did the same- I made my needs and self invisible hoping that I could survive the insanity of his alcoholism but finaly one day I said "ENOUGH" just as you are saying.
My son told me I was the worst Mom and that Dad was the best - i said and felt it is not important what anyone else thinks In order for me to survive the internal pain I must leave and I did/ My mom told me he was the best and I was the crazy one but again I needed to get away and heal in order for me to move an inch .
I hear you say that you have lost Stephanie. You tried very hard to maintain the marriage be a single mom ,work and be the invisible wife as he did his thing . It does not work!!!
He can go for treatment, attend AA and then you guys can connect and redefine your relationship -- I did and it worked.
I am reminded of the poem ENOUGH as I read your posts: Finally one day we stop attempting to Please eveyone we say "Enough and stand tall and move to honor ourselves.
Keep posting. This is not the end of the world or of your life.
((TOC)) hers is the poem and I believe it applies to your situation
A time comes in your life when you finally get it...when, in the midst of all your fears and insanity, you stop dead in your tracks and somewhere the voice inside your head cries out...ENOUGH! Enough fighting and crying and blaming and struggling to hold on.
Then, like a child quieting down after a tantrum, you blink back your tears and begin to look at the world through new eyes.
This is your awakening.
You realize it's time to stop hoping and waiting for something to change, or for happiness, safety and security to magically appear over the next horizon. You realize that in the real world there aren't always fairy tale endings, and that any guarantee of "happily ever after" must begin with you... and in the process a sense of serenity is born of acceptance.
You awaken to the fact that you are not perfect and that not everyone will always love, appreciate or approve of who or what you are... and that's OK. They are entitled to their own views and opinions.
You learn the importance of loving and championing yourself... and in the process a sense of new found confidence is born of self-approval. You stop complaining and blaming other people for the things they did to you - or didn't do for you - and you learn that the only thing you can really count on is the unexpected.
You learn that people don't always say what they mean or mean what they say and that not everyone will always be there for you and that everything isn't always about you.
So, you learn to stand on your own and to take care of yourself... and in the process a sense of safety and security is born of self-reliance.
You stop judging and pointing fingers and you begin to accept people as they are and to overlook their shortcomings and human frailties... and in the process a sense of peace and contentment is born of forgiveness.
You learn to open up to new worlds and different points of view. You begin reassessing and redefining who you are and what you really stand for.
You learn the difference between wanting and needing and you begin to discard the doctrines and values you've outgrown, or should never have bought into to begin with.
You learn that there is power and glory in creating and contributing and you stop maneuvering through life merely as a "consumer" looking for your next fix.
You learn that principles such as honesty and integrity are not the outdated ideals of a bygone era, but the mortar that holds together the foundation upon which you must build a life.
You learn that you don't know everything, it's not your job to save the world and that you can't teach a pig to sing. You learn that the only cross to bear is the one you choose to carry and that martyrs get burned at the stake.
Then you learn about love. You learn to look at relationships as they really are and not as you would have them be. You learn that alone does not mean lonely.
You stop trying to control people, situations and outcomes. You learn to distinguish between guilt and responsibility and the importance of setting boundaries and learning to say NO.
You also stop working so hard at putting your feelings aside, smoothing things over and ignoring your needs.
You learn that your body really is your temple. You begin to care for it and treat it with respect. You begin to eat a balanced diet, drink more water, and take more time to exercise.
You learn that being tired fuels doubt, fear, and uncertainty and so you take more time to rest. And, just as food fuels the body, laughter fuels our soul. So you take more time to laugh and to play.
You learn that, for the most part, you get in life what you believe you deserve, and that much of life truly is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You learn that anything worth achieving is worth working for and that wishing for something to happen is different than working toward making it happen.
More importantly, you learn that in order to achieve success you need direction, discipline and perseverance. You also learn that no one can do it all alone, and that it's OK to risk asking for help.
You learn the only thing you must truly fear is fear itself. You learn to step right into and through your fears because you know that whatever happens you can handle it and to give in to fear is to give away the right to live life on your own terms.
You learn to fight for your life and not to squander it living under a cloud of impending doom.
You learn that life isn't always fair, you don't always get what you think you deserve and that sometimes bad things happen to unsuspecting, good people... and you learn not to always take it personally.
You learn that nobody's punishing you and everything isn't always somebody's fault. It's just life happening. You learn to admit when you are wrong and to build bridges instead of walls.
You learn that negative feelings such as anger, envy and resentment must be understood and redirected or they will suffocate the life out of you and poison the universe that surrounds you.
You learn to be thankful and to take comfort in many of the simple things we take for granted, things that millions of people upon the earth can only dream about: a full refrigerator, clean running water, a soft warm bed, a long hot shower.
Then, you begin to take responsibility for yourself by yourself and you make yourself a promise to never betray yourself and to never, ever settle for less than your heart's desire.
You make it a point to keep smiling, to keep trusting, and to stay open to every wonderful possibility.
You hang a wind chime outside your window so you can listen to the wind.
Finally, with courage in your heart, you take a stand, you take a deep breath, and you begin to design the life you want to live as best you can.
Thanks for sharing this - powerful message and beautifully written!
Helps me as I reconnect to what is truly important for me/my life!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
It is a very impressive poem with great insight and promise I believe ti covers many of our struggles before we found recovery and then after.I remember when I said "ENOUGH" and it was a powerful experience.
Take care
Hi ocean from ocean :)
It's funny you asked how do you cooperatively divorce, because my mom just shared with me about a kind of divorce called collaborative divorce. You can read about it here and google more info: divorcesupport.about.com/od/typesofdivorc1/f/collaborative.htm
I guess both parties have to want it, and hope to avoid the expense of attorneys on both sides with more mediation. It may not be possible in your case, but I wanted to let you know about it.
I so understand what you are going through! I have just been through it (minus the affairs), and still am. I went through a year of my husband "quitting drinking". Each time he relapsed, he turned dark and focused it on me. He did it in front of our kids, and I just was not willing to live with that behavior any more. I understood the relapses and struggles, but I couldn't deal with the projections, accusations, and meanness...and then him pretending like it never happened and saying "I don't drink anymore." Anyhow, I did lay down my boundary that I was not willing to put up with that any more, and would leave if he did it again. Of course, he did it again - and I moved out for a month. He renewed his AA attendance and other stuff, so I gave it another try. The next slip, I did not move out. And he acted somewhat crazy that time - he barged in a doctor appt (actually with a homeopath) for our son, and acted strange enough that she was a bit freaked out - but we doubled down on counseling and I didn't leave again. The next time, he sneaked drinks til drunk twice in 4-5 nights, and each time said mean , aggressive and inappropriate things in front of our children. I knew I could not keep doing this - it was not healthy or safe for any of us. So I left on July 8, and after a few weeks with friends, I rented a little house a couple miles away. I still struggle mightily with the fact that HE is in our house - the house that I turned into a home and made a base of operations for our family's activities, BUT! I do have more peace of mind and the knowledge he is not going to harass me esp at night. He STILL is a loose cannon and acts out and wastes my time with his drunk paranoid thoughts, but at least I am not in the same place as he is. I did get convinced, through the ESH of others who had been through it, that my sanity, physical and emotional health are paramount. Without those, I cannot be a good mom or a good person. So even t hough things are not how I want them to be - my kids are with him at our house more than I would have imagined - I am slowly recovering, and ready to get them if need be.
And still his pressure to reunite is relentless. He has a huge fear of divorce... he says it is what he most fears, which I think can't be true if he really thought about all the other scarier things that could happen (kids health, etc.). BUT, as a lifelong people pleaser, and someone who really does not want to do harm to anyone, his pressure and fear affect me deeply. I think if I was less affected, I would have moved toward separation or divorce. It doesn't feel good to know that even with laying down my boundaries, I am so affected by someone else's (unhealthy) opinions and responses. So I just try the best I can. But at the end of the day, the question for you and me is, will we ever be able to trust these men again? The jury is still out for me, but only you can answer if in any part of yourself you can imagine trusting this man again, and if not, how will you be able to rebuild a marriage with no trust?
Last thing I will say is, we have been doing marriage counseling this past year, and I do agree with what others have shared... that it's pretty darn impossible to do marriage counseling with an active addict. They are not able to be accountable, or to see things clearly. Mine is doing e hough solo counseling that we use the marriage counseling mostly for meidation/decision making, but I see so clearly how much more progress we could make if his mind was clear.
Hang in there, keep coming back here. One thing that has helped me in all this confusion is to try not to look too far ahead, and just to ask myself, "what is the next right thing I can do?"
About your daughter - I have experienced much of the same with my ten year old son. He sometimes clearly sees the craziness coming from Dad. The other day my AH sent me a barrage of unkind and accusatory texts. Our son unfortunately and accidentally saw them (and according to my AH, it was all my fault because "those texts were meant for your eyes only" to which I replied, "Those texts were so mean, they were meant for nobody's eyes). My son told me he thought I should divorce his dad if he sends texts like that. I tried so hard to reply neutrally, that daddy is trying to be better, but also that I can't accept that behavior. Three days later, my son can't remember that, and is in a place of "why don't you come home Mom? Dad isn't drinking any more (right... for 3 days now!)... Daddy says all he wants for Christmas is for you to come home." Ugh. It is so wrong of him to put our son in that position. But I agree with the suggestions you have received, about moving forward with what is best for you regardless of your daughter's short-term feelings about it.
Sorry this is so long. I just identify so much with what you are describing, and wanted to share what I have recently been through as a fellow wanderer in these thickets of dealing with AH's. Keep on breathing... feeling the ground beneath your feet... one moment at a time...
Hi, Oceanpine I just wanted to be make one observation about your husband saying that divorce is what he most fears. You'd think if that were true, he'd go to any lengths to try to keep it from happening - like entering a formal program of recovery. It's funny that they say they want things so, so deeply - but they don't walk the talk, do they? Looks to me like the thing he most fears is not getting his way and not getting to keep his addiction.
In both these situations (Oceanpine's and Theoceancall's) - as in all of ours - if the addict were going to agree with our view of the situation, how insane and unbearable it's become - well, he wouldn't be in it in the first place, would he? So naturally he's going to act like we're nuts and doing something completely unnecessary and stupid. That's what you get when you ruin your powers of reason with alcohol. They actually think this insanity is normal and better than serenity. But we know better, even if they try to protest till the end of time. We know better.
((TOC)) Please remember that you do not have to engage with the insanity or manipulations of the alcoholic. Alanon slogans reminds us not to Defend, engage, argue or justify youself or your position. Simply restate your position and then let go. Go for a walk, or into another room It works .
«««And still his pressure to reunite is relentless. He has a huge fear of divorce... he says it is what he most fears, which I think can't be true if he really thought about all the other scarier things that could happen (kids health, etc.). BUT, as a lifelong people pleaser, and someone who really does not want to do harm to anyone, his pressure and fear affect me deeply. I think if I was less affected, I would have moved toward separation or divorce. It doesn't feel good to know that even with laying down my boundaries, I am so affected by someone else's (unhealthy) opinions and responses. So I just try the best I can. But at the end of the day, the question for you and me is, will we ever be able to trust these men again? The jury is still out for me, but only you can answer if in any part of yourself you can imagine trusting this man again, and if not, how will you be able to rebuild a marriage with no trust?»»»» from oceanpine to me. .
Ive read this countless times and it describes me to a tee. . Ive lived at the mercy of being a people pleaser, im a solver, an empathetic believer in hope and faith and i have lived for many years hopng it woukd get better or go away. Now. . As i have said NO. . Its all me. . Hes begging, leading, daughter mad at me at the latest is « i have tried to push her (other woman) out of my life but this last time. .The one with the resulting pics apparently was a"set up". .lots of drinking, pot smoking and goodness knows what else. . She seduced and others pushed for it despite my many attempts over the months to get her out of my life»
Im not sure how that made me feels. . Gross, violated, but its his attempt to see he hasnt intentionally ruined our marriage.
Icommend you for trying cnslg. . I did too. . And lots was blamed on me and my fam of orig. . Not about his drinking and baggage. Today he says «i want recovery i want to save us» all i ferl is dead inside.
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When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
(((Hugs))), prayers and positive thoughts continue here too.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
A huge fear of not having someone to help pay for my addiction
+ A huge fear of not having someone to blame for my destructive actions.
+ A huge fear of not having someone to provide a safety net when I choose to risk my life.
+ A huge fear of other people seeing me for the failure that I have become.
+ A huge fear of people hearing the truth when they ask you why you got a divorce.
+ A huge fear of having to face myself in the mirror every morning without someone to distract me.
+ A huge fear of losing even more control of my drinking.
+ A huge fear of not having a cook, maid, nurse, and chauffeur.
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= A huge fear of MYSELF
I submit that, as harsh as it may sound, his "huge fear of divorce" has little to do with YOU.
You may be providing both yourself and HIM the opportunity of a lifetime.
I want someone for whom a "huge fear of divorce" means:
A huge fear of not having someone with whom to share happiness.
A huge fear of not having someone with whom to set goals with and to support as we struggle together to meet them.
A huge fear of not having someone who elicits a sensation of warmth and security from me when I think of them.
A huge fear of not having someone who is healthy, confident and self-aware with whom to grow.
A huge fear of not having someone who understands my insecurities and tries to help me overcome them instead of exploiting them.
A huge fear of not having someone who can laugh at me and whom I can laugh at and yet feel stronger - not weaker - from the experience.
A huge fear of not having someone who wants me to change when it strengthens me, and isn't threatened by it.
That's a divorce to fear!!!
(((((TOC)))))
I hope whatever decision you make, it supports what you want. There are no healthy relationships with one or more miserable people.
Now he has arranged to go to a Recovery mtg with a pastor frinend. I should be happy but i stiill feel sick. Like even mote weight and more wait and see. .
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When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
I am glad he will attempt recovery Please keep working your recovery as well. This is a long and painful road. No reason you cannot still go with your original plan and then see how he responds to recovery
Im at a loss.i want to run away. I just dont trust him to be successfull without conituing to tear rme down in th process. And then there is my dear ok family of origin who has written him off and me next.
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When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
I'm glad he is seeking help from the crushing disease he has been stricken with.
I learned it's OK to not make any major decisions right this instant. for me it helped to space myself from my AH when he was so sick and to focus on myself and my alanon program. I did not make any major decisions while we were in the center of the tornado. Working on me, relying on a sponsor, getting to asmany alanon meetings as possible literally saved my life.
Praying for you and hope you keep sharing. We're here for you!!!
-- Edited by Michelle814 on Monday 26th of October 2015 02:15:45 PM
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Michelle!
No one can take away your peace of mind unless you let them.
I feel like ive been.in the center if tornado fir years. . I want him better but it feels empty. Thus affair and heavy drinking and the sedyction has been going in under my kniws firvtwo years. Im not sure i DO want to work through that. . Im afraid i want out if the tirnado and to be done. Maybe he will tecover, maybe he will become a fabuloys dad and maybe. . In the meantime my friends and family have all said, yup once again shes going to cave. . .
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When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
Remember that only 15-25% of those who start recovery achieve longterm sobriety. The fact that he's going to one recovery meeting doesn't mean he's going to be sober. Of course I hope he will be. But it wll take a year or two before it's clear whether he's going to make it. Those 1-2 years will be full of chaos. And even if he made it, you would have no obligation to forgive & forget everything that has happened so far. But he can go ahead into his recovery and get in touch in two years and tell you how far he's come, and you can see how you feel then.
Meanwhile your most important priority is taking care of yourself. What he does or doesn't do is not important. Your recovery is important. Meetings, readings, a sponor?
Ocean, I hear a lot of focus still on him and what he might or might not do.
Making a decision to attend a meeting every day while in a crisis has helped me to work my program, focus on what's best for me and to make decisions that honor my own well-being. Calling my sponsor once a day has helped too. Maybe these and other tools of Alanon that are suggested by your sponsor will help you with keeping your serenity and taking the next right action. (((hugs))) TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Monday 26th of October 2015 04:14:59 PM
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Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.