The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
This was my experience Miranda. My ex never loved me. I'm not sure an alcoholic can offer any of us love in the sense of the word where we attach expectations on it. We also cant love with these same expectations. I think we can love an alcoholic but only when we accept them as is. An active alcoholic cant love us for who we are, they cant see us or themselves never mind love.
I don't see it as sad or happy. It just seems to be the reality of addiction, it just is. I can attach emotion to reality if I choose but Alanon has taught me to accept reality and not let it control me.
I am inclined to agree. When I was an active alcoholic, what I thought was love was a mixture of neediness, dependency, and codependency. I didn't love myself enough to really love anyone else. So, for me, I also was attracted to other drinkers because they distracted me from my own problems, made me feel worthy because I could use my "counseling skills" to help them, and at the beginning, things seemed perfect.
The alcoholic love affair: The alcoholic typically has a lot of baggage, so they let you in on it at the start and then you feel like you are getting tidbits of precious information that this person trusted you with about their problems so this means that the two of you are a perfect fit and you are really special (no...it means they are unloading their problems on you and you are validating yourself by listening and later on they will involve you as part of the reason for all their drama). So they also kick back and have fun and when they get tipsy (before really wasted) they say the most romantic things which again make you feel like you are super special. But the things they say like "I need you" and "I have never met anyone like you ever!" are actually shallow things coming out of an intoxicated broken person's mouth and they are things said because that is what they "think" is what they are feeling when in actuality, they are deeply self loathing, can't deal with reality, and they just met someone who strokes their ego and seems to think they are great even with all their baggage and their escapades. Then, over time, they get worse. You stop being a pleasant distraction from their coping deficiencies and you start placing expectations on them. They blame you for their problems and when you are no longer infatuated, no longer enamored...it's just the alcoholic and their baggage and you left craving all the attention and affection that they poured on in the beginning when you were like their new play toy. They have a horrible hostile dependency with you because they need the enabling from you, but they also hate you because they cannot function independently. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. Insanity and resentments grow. You think you lost your "soulmate" when really you never had one in them to begin with.
I lived this again and again from both sides of the relationship...
I agree LC, that is why I worked /work the Steps diligently to free myself from these mis-guided ideas and tools. I can and do love freely with the help of alanon
As far as seeing this concept as sad, I can understand having feelings around this so I can move to acceptance and then finally the action of setting myself free .
Thanks to alanon and the Steps when I want to change and grow, all I need to do is to pick up the tools to be set free from all my destructive ideas and beliefs .
I must point out that growing up with Country-Western music didn't help. :)
Songs like;" Stand by Your Man"", Rambling Man" etc reinforced my concepts.
-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 28th of March 2015 08:30:03 AM
Neediness, impatience, folly. I add this to the defect list of my own. I don't entirely agree with never love. There were many qualities in several alcoholics I've known that I've loved and admired. Qualities I was so touched to be associated with, until the bad outweighed the good. I look at my parents and they both were in the grips of this disease. But one was always loving, the other always selfish. One remains active, one remains recovered. One professes eternal love for the other, inspire of 31 years divorce, the other, like you says love was never a part of the relationship on either side. Interesting.
I am inclined to agree. When I was an active alcoholic, what I thought was love was a mixture of neediness, dependency, and codependency. I didn't love myself enough to really love anyone else. So, for me, I also was attracted to other drinkers because they distracted me from my own problems, made me feel worthy because I could use my "counseling skills" to help them, and at the beginning, things seemed perfect.
The alcoholic love affair: The alcoholic typically has a lot of baggage, so they let you in on it at the start and then you feel like you are getting tidbits of precious information that this person trusted you with about their problems so this means that the two of you are a perfect fit and you are really special (no...it means they are unloading their problems on you and you are validating yourself by listening and later on they will involve you as part of the reason for all their drama). So they also kick back and have fun and when they get tipsy (before really wasted) they say the most romantic things which again make you feel like you are super special. But the things they say like "I need you" and "I have never met anyone like you ever!" are actually shallow things coming out of an intoxicated broken person's mouth and they are things said because that is what they "think" is what they are feeling when in actuality, they are deeply self loathing, can't deal with reality, and they just met someone who strokes their ego and seems to think they are great even with all their baggage and their escapades. Then, over time, they get worse. You stop being a pleasant distraction from their coping deficiencies and you start placing expectations on them. They blame you for their problems and when you are no longer infatuated, no longer enamored...it's just the alcoholic and their baggage and you left craving all the attention and affection that they poured on in the beginning when you were like their new play toy. They have a horrible hostile dependency with you because they need the enabling from you, but they also hate you because they cannot function independently. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. Insanity and resentments grow. You think you lost your "soulmate" when really you never had one in them to begin with.
I lived this again and again from both sides of the relationship...
Thank you Pinkchip. I so desperately needed to read this. I have been struggling with the loss of a 20 year marriage and subsequent divorce from my "soulmate". As soon as he left, he immediately began becoming very public with his hookups with the bar gals he drug home in our small town. But now he has found the love of his life and will be moving 8 hours away from his children to start a new life and family with his new soulmate who drinks with him. The hardest and most confusing part of this has been him transforming into superdad and finally having interaction with our kids, as well as trying to involve the soulmate with our kids and her reaching out to them to be involved with them. It hurts on so many fronts-leaving our kids, starting a new family, no apology or taking responsibility for one single hurtful action or things said, walking away without ever once looking back....and the list could go on forever. I now see things from a different perspective after your post. Thank you.
You are welcome. I thought more about this thread...A few semi random ideas: I guess it sounds a little harsh to say there is/was never any love in a relationships with an alcoholic. I can say, at the time, I loved as best I knew how....and maybe they did too. But if it was love, it was mixed with toxic elements which wound up ruining it. And if we were soulmates at the time, it was because our souls were not healthy (no program for either of us / both damaged and needy) and that is what could have made us temporary "soulmates" of sorts. I'm more inclined these days to believe the term "soulmate" is something people have come up with to place extra emphasis on their relationships, as if "husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfriend" isn't enough. It has a codependent zing to it because it implies the person was made for you and perfectly matched forever and ever no matter what. Also I think our souls belong to our HP not another person and we have to always do our own work to nurture our souls. So "soulmate" also implies we don't have to work on our spirituality because someone else can just come along and fulfill all our spiritual needs. It was a trap for me to view relationships like that.
I think if love is true acceptance of a person, all of that person then im learning it for the first time really. It does sound harsh to say there is no love where there is addiction, yes there might be fragments of love within the disfunction and its as good as can be at the time. I had this idea of love and soulmates too and it very much kept me in dysfunction for way longer than if i had an idea of what love is. I was always trying to change him, thats not love. Soulmates is such a trap, like a fantasy, a needy idea, very fixed. It epitomises the lie for me. I think i loved the chaos and drama surrounding him and us, it was all very dramatic and in my mind for a time, romantic. I had these big childish notions, im the only one who really knows and understands him. This inflated my ego and kept me hooked.
Its not easy looking at this, it seems challenging and i can see that some people might feel insulted. Im sure there are reasons for some that no way, its true soulmate love for them, they are different, better in some ways. Thats how i would see it when i was deep in denial. You cant see it until your ready but whe you see it theres no going back, you cant unsee the truth, but its freedom to me.
What a great topic and shares! My first husband was an addict, so were my next 3 boyfriends, and my current spouse has multiple addictions. Neither of my parents were addicts or alcoholics, but my older brother was full of rage and he was violent. It somehow set me up for all the ACOA qualities.
I think all of them loved me/love me, but it's a very dysfuntional love, very unhealthy. And at the time I loved all of them, with my dysfunctional love right back at them. It's only with alanon, I have an idea of what healthy love could be like. I am working on detaching with love for my current spouse, but I fully recognize how limited and lacking my current marriage is. I have woken up from my dream of unreality. I am working on healthy love for myself, my son, granddaughter, etc. I'm on a wonderful journey. I owe it all to alanon, Lyne
I love what Mark shared above especially about the toxicity of a soulmate connection. I think my STBXAH and I were soul mates(don't like this term but not sure what else to use) in the sense that we were both so broken and affected by alcoholism that our 'souls' were bound by the disease. Love takes many forms and there are so many things that go into making a love connection with someone beyond the physical attraction. It's amazing how our dysfunctions can bring us together just as much as in the ways we aren't dysfunctional, LOL.
Oh, and for the record, I hate the word soulmates because I'm not really sure this is such a thing. Not saying there can't be lasting love between a couple, but why does society use the term soul mate? Thank you, El Cee,for sharing that above about how it inflates OUR egos when we keep up these childish notions.
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
This is tough one. Something i really struggle with daily.
I knew The addict before we were married. Then he went
totally Dry and no drugs for 30 years.
What Was real when our marriage was going well. Was it all
Just one big lie, was he a wolf in sheeps clothing. It was an
Alcohloic marriage in many ways then it started to really
Fracture when i began displeasing him. He couldnt look at
His part in the problem. Emotional intimacy was our #1
marriage Killer.
I like the idea we had 17 fairly good years 12 very Bad years
ending in emotional and verbal abuse. I should have Left him
12 years ago but i felt i was letting him work thru his
Problems. It only got a lot worse not better with his need
For total control, passive agressive behaviors, enabling
Codependent momma. Who is this person?
I keep asking myself how did we ever get to this point?
We led a normal, moral, decent life now this craziness.
We kept crazy out not let it into our lives.
I know now its the progression of his untreated disease.
He attends AA but i do not see any internal changes
only Other addicts/co addicts encouraging his behaviors
And actions. He is being brave.
One day he hopefully will be honest and face himself
And grow as a person. His mother filled him with so much
shame And guilt. She is an untreated coda. She gives her
Family her reality and they go with her, talk about dishonesty.
My ah has a long hard journey ahead of him.
I hope i will find the peace and serenity i so deserve
After the divorce is final.
I watched my XAH's s/mom deal with this very same issue as far as was it all a lie the good times. She was married for 35 years and it tore her up asking the whole WHY question. Personally for me puts me in a victim mode .. yes, I was victimized .. I am not powerless in how I choose to see myself. I am no longer a victim. It's the flip side of step 1. She did this to herself for the first 5 years of divorce. It was painful to watch her go through this .. honestly I don't know if she still does or not I had to cut ties.
I would really encourage you to look at it with a more detached view than black and white. I believe the good times were good times especially in the beginning. My part was ignoring the red flags in the relationship. If someone is dry, working a program and then relapses that is the disease getting worse and the lies of the disease winning that they can have just one. I heard my XAH state this very fact. I thought enough time had passed it was safe to have one. He does not accept he is an alcoholic which is why he will drink again. I heard this weekend that when he's not working all he does is sleep. What kind of life is that really? It's existing waiting for the next shoe to drop.
I used the good times to excuse the bad times. That's what my trap was .. the good times got fewer and fewer and the bad times got closer and closer together.
I still used my little scraps of good times to hang on to the relationship out of fear. Again that was my part and it's ok because I wasn't ready. Usually the God of my understanding shoves me pretty hard and then it's a push come to shove issue.
Relationships end for whatever multitude of reason, what was real was real and the lie is only the lie I told myself to minimize or maximize what the reality was. I don't know if that makes sense or not .. I just choose not to beat myself up with the why's of it all.
Facts -
there were good times in my relationship with my X
there were painful times in my relationship with my X
I did choose to lie to myself about how bad things were when things got really bad. It wasn't all bad the whole time. The end it was bad and still is not great.
I can only be responsible for my part and out of that I can only change my behavior based upon the lessons I learned.
HA HA .. now I say all that and from time to time I still fantasize his car would randomly burst into flames. :) It's a process. Yes, that to is a fact .. LOL!
Hugs, S :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
I like what pinkchip said about the term soulmate. It does indeed sound then like there is a person who is taking care of all my spiritual needs. Love is a term I am working on understanding as well. I have an excessive need to caretake and also confuse pity with love - but what precisely is that emotion? I'm not sure I will find it until I can provide it for myself.
I whole heartedly agree with this post, however that is because I believe love is a behavior ... Not the soulmate let's destroy each other feeling. I think that is obsession. My ex-A and I could not have a relationship because I saw his views of love as exploitation and compulsive. I maybe wrong but when I see him "clean and sober" ... I don't see I "dry drunk" ... I see someone with a personality disorder. The part that was mine was that I didn't understand that a lot of addictions are co-morbid with other things. I just saw someone who was choosing a path that I could not even comprehend why you would choose that. C'est la vie!!! I am just happy I don't have to witness him and whoever is in his AA group run around and destroy each other, because that is what I saw.
My definition of love is kind of an amalgamation of much of the above. Love is first and foremost the total acceptance of another person right there and right now, not sometime in the future, not sometime in the past, but right now where they are.
But more than that, love is a commitment to a behavior, that we will have the above=mentioned love even when we don't feel like it. I will take care of my wife, whether she is sick or in good health, drunk/sober, etc.
religion alert - just my take, not forcing on anyone -->
I am on vacation, and went to a church this morning I had never been to. The main point of the sermon was that when we follow the Holy Spirit, we aren't necessarily doing something because we feel it. often the Holy Spirit leads us to places where we really don't want to go, but we go anyway because we love God.
And to me, that is love. When we don't feel like dealing with the person, when we would really rather run the other way screaming, but we do something anyway because it's the right thing and we are committed to him/her.
In some circumstances it means we must leave, because it actually is the best thing for the other person, or for the kids. But even then, if we accept the other person as they are, and with their good and bad, and don't leave out of anger, then we are leaving out of love. This is one of the reasons Al Anon advises not to do anything for awhile, if you decide you must leave you can leave in love, and not anger if you do the steps.
I think the definition of love is different for all of us really. I am kind of against the socially constructed idea of love being an ownership, forever type of love. Its a dangerous view of love and can lead to a warped relationship. Even as a Mother, my idea of love for my children was distorted. I thought they belonged to me, reflected me, every move they made was mine and mine to change and fix. My Mother love was smothering, obsessive, controlling, critical na lot of the time.
If love is the complete acceptance of another then I never loved very well for a lot of the time. I think we either need to know unconditional love through feeling it or its very hard to give it. Having embarked on a spiritual journey I am interested in 'love' working out what it means, disguarding my preconceived ideas programmed into me from the beginning by my own parent and wider community. I reject that notion of love. My relationship with my ex had a little sprak of love within it I think but it burned out quickly and became everything love is not.
