The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Does being married or living with another person mean we have the right to insist they change, get sober, behave in a certain way? what if the mistake was ours in the first place? I mean we meet a person, build up our idea of who that person is, build our own expectations around how that person will behave, dream of a future and of how that person is central to the dream, our own dream, becoming reality.
So then the person, turns out to be only human with flaws, an alcoholic, they have always been an alcoholic, its a thinkjng disease, their thinking has been distorted and disturbed long before we came along. Then at some point the person is not good enough, they are not behaving as we thought, hoped they would, they are not making our dream become reality. We are outraged, demand change, become angry and bitter and blame blame the person but all along we set ourselves up for this by living in a fantasy land, not seeing reality, not accepting it and the person for who they always were really, just human. We wanted and expected more.
I don't see it as a "right" for them to get sober. Do we have a right to grow up, have mature relationships, have serenity, peace, happiness? Yes. Unfortunately, it's not to different than other reasons people may become discontent in a marriage and maybe separate and divorce. Alcoholism is but one reason that people grow apart and are no longer compatible.
I think a lot of people will try and change the other person before coming to terms with the fact that the person isn't capable of meeting their needs. Our institution of marriage commands that we take vows seriously and make efforts to uphold them and often that perpetuates the idea of "making it work at whatever cost." It is both good and bad. I believe in marriage. My parents have been married 50 years and both sets of grandparents were over 60 years. BUT, often people make choices in a spouse when they are in their early or mid 20s and they really have zero idea how both of them will change as people.
So...I dunno. I think we have the right to do whatever we want. We can insist on sobriety or expect it, but if you do that, get ready to walk away if needed. Don't expect it or insist your whole life and stick around not getting what you want and need. That's just my opinion.
Dear LC, this is a very interesting posting. I must say that early in program the concepts which you outlined evaded my reasoning and they required much thought and processing on my part to accept and understand.
Being young and foolish, and growing up in a alcoholic home I did tend to live in a fantasy world, and my tools of denial and pretend helped me to do just that. Entering the grown-up world, I brought those tools along and thought they were all l I needed to survive.
Also growing up in an alcoholic home I was told that taking care of myself was selfish and so I developed another irrational belief system that had me ignoring myself and my needs , and taking care of others , with love , compassion , kindness and generosity. This belief system, said that if I did this, others would in turn do the same. I completely based my happiness of another person , gave away my power and no wonder I then became angry and resentful when their behavior changed. With my faulty belief system. I believed that they had to revert back and change or else I would not be okay.
Enter Al-Anon, and all these belief systems were challenged and replaced, I learned that I was responsible for my own happiness, that I should love, have compassion and respect for others without any expectations and that I needed to love and have respect for myself before I could give it to others. What a Revelation!
Thank you Al-Anon for teaching me how to live life on life's terms, take care of my self in the process and for giving me the ability to love without strings
Thanks for your viewpoint. I think its a social constructed trap. I was 14 when i met my ex ah, i clung on all right and my hopes and dreams of what our relationship would, should look like held fast for 20 odd years. I could call myself determined all right. A 14 yr olds stunted mindset, faulty right enougn. Determined to get what i want at any cost really. Its a childish notion and im so glad i managed to see the light before i die. I can look reality and the truth square in the eyes mostly, of course im a toddler with stabalisers on my bike kind of thinking i know it all. The problem now is, when your in the light you aresurrounded by darkness. The whole world is in the dark, except people with spirituality. Where do you find these people, so far, here and at alanon meetings. Where else? Because if i am to be me now i need to let go of just about every person i know except here and at alanon. Are church people in the light? I dont know religion, are religious people like us?
Also, i dont think its all about alcoholism either, thats just one symptom among thousands. If people are in denial it can be about everything and anything. In fact the more i learn the more im coming to think alcoholism is a small fish in a giant pond.
Also, does everyone reach the light and the truth at some stage i their life? I mean if it takes surrender, the rock bottom sick and tired of being sick and tired for us to finally let go of our faulty thought processes then surely everyone reaches it, is it not part of life? Or are we the lucky ones? I dont know. Its difficult to be surrounded to chronic negative thinking everywhere mostly. Then sharing the truth of me is such a different view of life that its a battle to be heard. Then for me, im sick of battling, no more jade. So lettjng go is the only option really.
I met my husband when he was 37 and he was already a FA. we married anyway. I was well aware of his addiction and understood it as a disease from day one. I did not go to Al-anon or mandate he stop drinking.
Then he started getting violent.
The last time he drank he was so blacked out he does NOT remember trying to kill me.
Yes I can and will mandate that IF HE WANTS TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP with me he HAS TO REMAIN SOBER AND IN A PROGRAM.
It's not mandating it.... it's MY BOUNDARY.
He has every right to drink. IF he drinks it's because he is making a choice to lose his marriage.
I don't mind if he drinks... but I will no longer live with him or be married to him if he chooses to drink.
Having never having been given this option in his life by me, he is not willing to test it and see if I mean it. So yes if they WANT to be with us and we demand sobriety, then yes we can demand it IMO
__________________
-- ladybug
We come to love not by finding a perfect person, but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly.
I thought we had my ah disease of alcoholism
Beat when he never began drinking again. I
Was somewhat dysfunctional but our marriage
Seemed to work for a long time and then the
Cracks started appearing. I should have pursued
Help then or left the marriage when everything started
Going downhill but i hung on hoping for the best.
My hope was ah would help himself get better and
stop being so Mean and nasty. It did not happen
only got worse.I still felt i was being a good wife
hanging in there. I was abusing myself by staying
and taking his Abuse.
Now we are getting divorced and i feel i wasted
12 years staying with a man that didnt deservek
My time or love.
Thank you alanon for helping me get emotionally
Strong again. I lost my way in his disease and my
Own dysfunction. I wish i could say its over and i
Am better but i still ride on the emotional Roller
Coaster with my ah. One day at a time, one foot
In front of the other. Thank you HP for holding my
Hand.
Elcee yes i hit rockbottom before i started attending Alanon.
I could not have been in worse shape. The once love of my life
Was systematically abusing me emotionally and verbally. Why
Did i stay with such a man? I still question myself was this who
He really was and i could not see it Or was so well hidden.
People do change and can move on but there are honorable
Ways of doing that.
LC, I do believe that Al-Anon principles can be applied in each and every relationship that I have and that I will be okay. My family of origin is filled with active alcoholics who refuse to acknowledge it, and I can interact with them for a time using my tools and enjoying their company. I am always glad to leave and go home to my own quiet serene place.
To answer your question about do we have the right to expect or insist on continued sobriety in order to maintain a relationship?
I would say that since alcoholism is a disease, that can be arrested and not cured,we need to carefully examine our motives, to make sure that we are not trying to manipulate the situation and believe deep down that we are willing to terminate the relationship if sobriety is not maintained.
Attending meetings keeping the focus on ourselves will enable us to keep growing and hopefully not fall into the trap of trying to change another.
We have the right to a safe, peaceful, happy life. Its right there for us if we want it but should it be dependant on another person? Surely that makes it very fragile? We have a responsibility for our own life and others the same. Putting our happiness and our life in the hands of anyone never mind an alcoholic might be foolish or even dangerous. I think strong, healthy boundaries for ourselves that we trust and are consistent keeps our lives in our own hands. Maybe the only thing to do with an active alcoholic is walk away, anything else could be enabling, preventing the rock bottom, interfering with the natural consequence. x
-- Edited by el-cee on Monday 9th of March 2015 08:37:21 AM
Yes, hotrod, i think it is about changing another. If we say, stop drinkjng or i will leave, what kind of sobriety is that, its kind of forced but then again if the person leaves then maybe that is the bottom. Is it any of our business? I mean as an individual person, all we can do is shape and change our own life and thats hard at times but to try and shape and change anothers is it right? m not too sure what im actually thinking. Just thinkjng out loud.
I can assure you if my now sober spouse started to drink again I would walk away. It's a deal breaker for me now. I think I have that right. I don't see it as being manipulative.
I do not have alcoholic family members other than my spouse. I can see being around him now and again when he's drunk or using... sure that's easy.
but living day to day with the insanity... NO THANK YOU.
saying to someone who drinks that YOU don't want to be with them is not controlling it's your own choice.
When my husband asked me to help him with bail, I said YES... but there were conditions. he had to go to detox then to rehab.
I drove him to rehab at his request. We had all his stuff in the car and he said "I have no choice I have to go"
and I told him "you have every choice in the world. You can choose to drink and I will get out of your car right now and call someone for a ride home and we can be done"
He said "no I'm going to rehab" so my boundary which is NEW is causing him to make a CHOICE.
How is my setting a boundary forcing him?
__________________
-- ladybug
We come to love not by finding a perfect person, but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly.
ladybug I do not believe that it was anyone's intentions to judge your actions or motives. I believe the question was an honest generic inquiry.and the responses merely opinions and not intended to be presented as gospel or a rule or taken personally.
We are each responsible to act in our own best interest depending on our inner guidance. I believe you are doing just that.
Yes you have the right and you can insist the other to be sober, I think it is the same as setting boundaries. But in the end the other person will do what he/she wants to do. The consequences will take place if you chose, and if you had expectations they may turn to resentments.... :(
This is a great topic and something I've thought about often. I didn't read all the responses, though, so my thought is that: people change. Some couples grow together. Some people stay teenagers all their lives and never learn how to function in the adult world. Some people are selfish. Some people give too much. I know marriages that were changed in an instant because of one person's stupid move (had nothing to do with alcoholism) and it ended their marriage. The other person probably didn't say before the wedding, in their mind, "I will not be married to a gambling addict, I'm OK with porn but if he uses it too much I'll probably need to leave the marriage, I won't stay married to someone who embezzles from their customers/company......"
I guess anything can change a relationship, whether it be alcoholism or some other addiction. Yet, I don't think we all sit down with ourselves in the beginning of a relationship and say: this is unacceptable or this level of (fill in the blank) will be intolerable to me and I'll have to end the relationship if it happens when I'm with this person. In other words; there are too many variables to calculate. So many scenarios and alcoholism (as you said above) is just one of them. How can we, simple minded humans, predict and determine what another person's actions or inactions are going to do to us as a relationship progresses forward. It's a risk.
Relationships are risky. People are a risk and we risk being hurt by them day in and day out.
So, can we insist that someone else change? I think, in a healthy relationship, we can ask the other person to evaluate their behavior but it's up to us to decide if we want to live with it or if it crosses a boundary or doesn't meet an expectation that we have set. I think, though, that many of us come together with addicts/alcoholics because we don't know what healthy boundaries look like. We have expectations and dreams and fantasies. We get uncomfortable when someone shows us who they truly are because we don't like it and don't know what to do with it. So, I know that I tried to change my AH to fit my fantasy. Ladybug talked above about boundaries and that is a key to helping any relationship succeed. Boundaries can be set before the wedding, after the wedding or along the way, etc. Knowing how to do that has set me free from dysfunction.
I also think we need to be flexible and understand that people do change and that we're changing, too. The question is: if someone grows stronger spiritually and emotionally and the other person doesn't keep up and tries to drag the healthy person back into insanity, that's where the rubber meets the road for me. I tried for years to manipulate things with my AH and to manipulate my own thinking so that I could justify living in an unacceptable situation. That wasn't the answer.
Earlier you questioned: are we the lucky ones? I have to answer with a resounding YES!!! Taking the time to learn about who you are and how to set boundaries and trusting God and your own intuition....that makes us blessed in our journey. I am grateful for alcoholism.
I think that knowing oneself and knowing who God says you are, is key. Truly, I wouldn't have it any other way. I have no idea if anything I said here made sense or even tied very well into the topic. I was just free typing, LOL. Have a great day, El Cee! Hope all is well in your corner of the globe!
__________________
Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
I have done and thought all those things that you outline in your initial post. But I never told my husband that he had to stop drinking or stop seeing his girlfriend. I simply told him that I was not going to live with it any more because I did not like the person that I was becoming under those circumstances. It was a painful journey for me to arrive at a place where I was prepared to give up everything that I thought was real in order to be true to myself, but I am pleased that I got there.
Now that the drinking is absent but the abusive behaviour still hangs in the air from time to time, I have told him that I will not live with abuse, and that I would like him to sort that behaviour out, if he wants to. I can not yet ignore hurtful behaviour from someone I love so I can not tolerate it in my life. He has choices and I do as well. He chose to seek out counselling. I go for a lovely long walk from time to time! At the moment I prefer to keep my roof over my head and the life that I built for myself intact but I know that I am able to change my surroundings very easily if I need to.
I have questioned whether or not I was blind for the twenty years that we were together before alcohol entered our lives and I have come to believe that alcohol does change people's thinking - it has certainly changed mine, and I believe that it has changed his as well. I am stronger in myself for these lessons. I might prefer to be the person who gives and expects others to have the grace to give in return, but that is no longer the way that I think. Some people, like minded people, are a joy to be around and some folks are hurting so much that they can't help but send out shockwaves. I like my life better with fewer shockwaves!! However, I have, thankfully, learnt that I am still OK when a shockwave strikes and that will be the case for as long as I live.
Thanks for your input everyone. I find it helps me understand the program when i hear how others interpret different parts of it. Its good to knkw we are all on the same path just at different parts of it. I am grateful for the alcoholics in my life, im not sure if anything else would have got me to surrender my old thinking and get me a new head, with new thoughts and ideas. Im grateful to share it with you all.x
As I learn more I do more better. Before learning more I was limited...I didn't understand a lot...I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know. Coming to understand something as simple as alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical meant that my wife was different than who and what I suspicioned and understood. She wasn't normal and I wasn't knowing the difference. How could she change if she didn't know and how could I expect rationally if I didn't either. I thought that just because I thought I some how was in a reality. I didn't arrive for a long time to the understanding that just because I thought didn't mean my expectations were real or that I had a grip on reality. I often say in describing my limited understanding that when I got into Al-Anon I was as dumb as a stick. The metaphor was truthful and that didn't make me sane. It took tons of meetings and face to face sit downs with elders and my sponsor to come to understand and I kept coming back for more. Did I have the right to insist on and/or expect sobriety? I had to arrive at that ability and right. First I had the ability for me...I could make the decision for me that I wanted to be living in an alcohol and drug free life style and then I quietly and confidently built the expectation not only from my alcoholic/addict and also for many other family members and friends and others. Of course I can life drug and alcohol free if I wanted it and I did. Saying no isn't hard and enforcing it is easy. Today for my wife and I it is a no-brainer and the default condition of how we live. Yesterday was the first birthday of our great grand son and the invitation struck the decision "byob bring a sober driver" My eldest son who has relapsed had his choices...do It or not...drink and use or not. We chose to stay and he chose to not drink and or use. We didn't make our choice based upon what he or other would do or not. We left when we wanted to and no one drank or used. Choices...that is what it is called. (((((hugs)))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Monday 9th of March 2015 06:18:37 PM
I think this is a great topic. We have no right to tell anyone how to live their life. With that being said I do think you can have boundaries. My AH was in the program and being sober when I met him. He deceived me from the get go. He was using and was lying, it took years for it to catch up to him. I do tell him if he wishes to continue in a marriage with him then he maintains a job, accountability for his fair share and remains sober. That's the line in the sand for us.
If he wishes to use again, he can it's his life, it's his life without a marriage and that is a choice he can make on his own. My life will not include all the bizarre, criminal, disrespectful, hurtful stuff that comes with his using. Today I can say that and know I mean it because of these rooms, Al-Anon, CODA and literature.
__________________
Linda
Don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will have it's own worries
I have the right to be treated with respect, kindness, concern for my well being by anyone that wants to be close to me. Now I have friends and family members that can and do drink, sometimes a lot (my family and friend circles are party people, right or wrong) and I can still rely on them to treat me with basic care and respect. So sobriety in itself isn't the issue for me, it's whether I can trust the person to treat me properly no matter what. But there are people...my A for example, my brother, my biol father...who treat me abusively when they drink and indulge their addictions and as a long reaching consequence of their addictions and yet they still drink/drug/gamble etc so, they cannot meet those very basic requirements and I can't be around them. I guess that is something A and I have learnt together.
I'm pretty sure when he met me he didn't think "I'm going to get drunk and abuse and terrorise this woman and make her life hell until she leaves me". He did make an awful lot of promises to change but I believe they were wishes of a sort, not lies. I believe he really did wish to be the decent functional man he claimed he was going to be but he lacked the tools to make it happen and every time he messed up the shame and bitterness grew a little bigger. Just like I was determined to be a loving patient superwoman who's love would save him eventually. My goals weren't exactly healthy or realistic either.
I don't feel angry, if anything I feel a bit guilty; his awful behaviour pushed me to my knees where I had no choice but to seek serious help and make myself better. I have grown from the whole experience; I benefited a lot really.
I miss the person we both imagined he would be, I don't think I have a right to expect he be anything other than who he is. We both lived in a fantasy, noone is to "blame", it just stopped working for me and I decided to get better.
I can't expect or demand recovery for him but I want it for him and hope he finds it with all of my heart.
__________________
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
ooh morning philosophy, thanks el)cee. I've wondered many of these things myself. In terms of finding others in light, I have had to use discernment without judgement. If you and I met in a coffee shop, we might be bound by rules of social engagement which prevent us from showing our deep thinking natures in favour of small talk or even ignoring each other. So the lack of judgement part comes in. I continue to ask my hp to bring me good people and people who nurture my needs. Not all religious people are free of ego in my experience, like this programme, it works if you work it.
in terms of expectations and insistence, well, I've wonders the same thing about fidelity. Marriage is a spiritual convenant and when two are walking together under the guidance of hp, that walk is in itself the key to spiritual growth for each. Too often, marriage ends up being one worker and one renter in my view, and this is not how it ought to be. As a friend I don't feel the right to insist on anything, but as a cherished partner a mistress be it the bottle or another person should never figure in the picture of marital trinity. I can revert to friend during difficulty but ultimately its not the point to intimate relationships for me.
