A question for the "double winners" - Al-Anon Family Group

Irish7 · Senior Member

A question for the "double winners"

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi irish, im not a double winner but i do recognise your question. I had that question too for a while. I also remember going to an open aa meeting and thinking that they dont have a clue what its like to be the partner. I was a bit resentful of this and still can be at times when i think of my ex. I realised that neither of us can really know what each felt or went through. I am not sure its possible. I never told my ex what it was truly like, i was always too scared he would run back to the drink or he would use that as an excuse to drink more. Now im more aware of my own part in all the mess, there was a part of me that enjoyed the victim, martyr role and it was nice to have someone to blame for my whole life so i was never an innocent victim in the relationship. I got sick too and i did my own damage. I try hard to not have resentment or blame these days because it only hurts me and im more about not letting this disease hurt me anymore.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I think in most cases the active alcoholic knows they are causing worry but thay lack skills to seek help and change. So they fall into a pattern where they wish people would stop worrying about them when they drink but also want them to keep worrying because that makes them feel like people still care. It is a deep rooted sickness with multiple levels of denial and other cognitive distortions. Alcoholics have twisted, volatile and unstable thoughts and emotions coupled with very poor coping skills. So what would seem logical and healthy to you or even one of us (I am a double winner) in long-term sobriety, it's not apparent to them. Often, they are convinced they are hurting themselves most and they do minimize damage to others.

FROG · Member

I am not a double winner, but will offer my ESH.

Before step one comes denial and self-deception, we simply cannot see ourselves honestly. My AH had moments of clarity and occasionally apologized... those are the times I believed all would be well, and I would live my fairy tale dream after all.

Only to have him forget the pain and humiliation of the last "drunk," it happened again. and again. we rode this merry-go-round together for over 20 years. He acted, I reacted. For over 20 years! neither of us being able to see ourselves (I am a tough nut to crack.)

But I did my best. and it helps me a LOT to remember, not to take anything personally. Alcoholic behavior is as personal as a pigeon poo-ing on my car... it's not personal. pigeon's are just doing what pigeon's do. same as alcoholics. Yea for YOU, going to AA meetings to learn more about the disease, trying to understand, wonderful!

Problem with denial is...... its very nature is denying you are in it.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Irish I am not a double winner but I was a smoker I smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day and no matter what anyone said I continued. I believed it was my life and I was fine. I was going to be able to smoke have fun and it would not hurt me. I told them to handle their fear on their own.

I stopped 6 years ago and am fine but I did it on my own when I was ready..

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Irish and welcome to the board. Good question and as a double I can honestly say to day that yes I knew and often I knew that I knew. I wasn't dumb or stupid I was addicted and my addiction caused problems ...for me and for others. When the alcohol started to change my thinking and feelings I knew when it was doing that and when I started to change my behaviors everyone else knew it also. I tried to drink sober....LOL It was my denial and it never ever worked. Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical and we alcoholics know that...we can hear it, see it, feel it and then witness your reactions to it while wishing that wouldn't happen over and over and over again. We would love to drink without problems and then in recovery we learn that if we put the wish in one hand and cat poop in the other which one would be most pleasant? It works better if you can understand the relationship between the alcoholic and alcohol...Most often we don't like it ourselves and what happens when we drink and then we try to cut back or stop drinking and it will start to hurt us with withdrawals and crazy thinking and bizarre feelings. We learn in AA lots of wisdom about our "ism" things like "One drink is too much and a thousand not enough". Can you get your mind around that picture. Are there things in your life that you are addicted to meaning that you will participate in it even while knowing that there are severe even life threatening consequences? That is our addiction. The psychological profile of the Alcoholic; one step, is that we are "risk takers" and for me when I was risk taking with booze I never ever thought or cared about the consequences thus in my drinking career I reached a point called (clinically) "toxic shock". I didn't get or feel drunk and still almost had all conscious and subconscious control erased. Often we in AA acknowledge that at this point or survival is dependent upon a power greater than ourselves and the tools that Power has at had to keep us alive. Alcoholism is a life threatening disease...if not arrested by total abstinence it will arrive at insanity and then death.

We know whats going on. We are not blind nor are we deaf. We are addicted and this addiction takes precedent over everything else. In the addiction we cannot...not drink. We will use our anger and guilt and shame which we feel because we have no control to come after you and blame you rather than hold ourselves responsible and this isn't being sinful...its being sick. I didn't seek help because I was afraid, just as afraid as everyone else was while we were drinking. I was afraid of coming into Al-Anon first and then the night I got into AA I sat in the corner, in the dark and found it impossible to identify myself as alcoholic. God bless the fellowship because they stopped the meeting and fell to silence until I stepped over the threshold of fear. My name is Jerry F and I am alcoholic. Everyone in the room knew it. I knew everyone there and their children and their spouses and they all knew...I was the one who had to hear myself say it out loud. I am not a bad person, I am a sick person with a potentially fatal disease for myself and for others if I drink any form of mind and mood altering chemical. Done.

I how this has been supportive and shed a bit of light on your concerns. Keep coming back (((((hugs))))) smile

Irish7 · Senior Member

Thanks for the insights. I'm floored by the selfishness and delusional thinking of the As in my life. I am a good wife in every way--kind, a good mother, pretty, fit, a good cook, loving in the bedroom. I am also an intelligent professional. None of it matters to him a bit. I might as we'll be a bridge troll with an IQ of 30 for all he cares. It really hurts, cuts me to the bone. I'm not sure I can stay in this marriage much longer but I did decide to wait the 6 months to decide.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Dont take it personally irish. Imagine not being able to appreciate all that you have listed there? We had a beautiful family, a potentially fantastic family life, he couldnt see it or feel it and couldnt take part. Hes suffering from a disease that i have learned to feel compassion for those suffering from it. It took me a lot of alanon work to work through my anger and resentments but i feel much better now and im so glad i can see and feel and appreciate what life has to offer, its a gift that not everyone has.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

I've been around for a long time and have never heard "bridge troll" as a description and being metaphorical by nature that made me laugh out loud and then my mind said, "It could happen"...Hang on to all of those great characteristics you have and don't let them suffer. The rooms of Al-Anon face to face will help you keep and grow them.

(((((hugs))))) smile

Irish7 · Senior Member

I've regained my long lost sense of humor ( hence the bridge troll reference!), and it feels good. Yesterday me and my BFF were just about on the floor laughing. Let me explain: I'm Irish, and a common expression we use for someone who is useless if "oh he's as useless as t1t$ on a bull." One of my qualifiers is absolutely beyond helpless and daft. So we started referring to him as Toby privately, which stand for "t1ts on a bull." Now every time this qualifier just stands there looking dumb, I think of this and dissolve into laughter instead of feeling rage. A crazy use of al anon tools but it's helping! LOL

Theoceancalls · Senior Member

I just have to say these posts really spoke to me. Ive beenwith my ah for 16 yrs and im.slowly learning to not take itpersonslly. Some days are better than ithers. I too found/find myself thinking, 'doe', 'doesnt he see whats hapoenning,doesnt he feel us pullimg away and recoiling at his drinkng binges, and how can he be sooo selfish'. Well, truth is. . He is selfish, i think he does feel.us pulling away which emotionally bankrupts him more and he invariably drinks more and i do think.he has lucid moments when he feels awful for his "ism". . That said, its been 16yrs.

Theoceancalls · Senior Member

Irish, i have to tell you, if i could priv message ypu i woukd as i think we have some commanalities. I too have been married to my ah for several years. Many times i have emotionally packed my bags and left. Ive prayed myself to sleep.wondering about his whereabouts and i have begged him to just once see it and feel it like i do. ,16yrs. I too am a talented, professional, attractive woman. I am a dedicated mother and loyal friend and wife. I work hard to emotionally stay invested in this marriage all while trying to preserve my own sanity. I raise our phenomenal.daughter practically on my own and do eberythiny iny power to love he enough to get us through the rough patches. She has seen me cry, seen me angry, seen me fearful and worried. I recently had to.demy her having a friend over cus ah was passed out on couch smelling if stale beer. . I coukdnt bear to stay home mydelf wewhile he slept it off and didnt want my daughter and he friend subjected to it either. Its not easy. Feel need each other. Thinlig of you

Irish7 · Senior Member

Sure, PM me. I'm not sure how to find the message but I'll figure it out

I've also stopped having friends over except for a select few who know about the situation. It really sucks.

John · ~*Service Worker*~

I am a double winner.

I can only speak for myself here. What I found to hold true for me, is that I had a very acute awareness of the harm I was causing others, the hurt, the worry, the fears, the financial insecurity, etc. and a big part of what I was trying to drown in alcoholic drunkenness for years, is the shame it brought into my consciousness. I was powerless, even in the face of what I knew. And in the absence of a drink, I didn't suddenly experience guilt for what I had done, but I did suddenly experience shame for what I had become and it was intolerable for even me to look at squarely in the eye.

Another thing that I found is that denial isn't just about being an alcoholic. It reaches much deeper than that. It encompassed every area of my life and surely stood out against anything or any one that might be trying to jeopardize my next drink. It minimized, rationalized and justified every drink I took, every ramification it brought forward, and everyone who spoke to me about my drinking, regardless of whether it was from a place of anger or a place of love. My denial was designed to reject anything that was being proposed and protect the next drink.

Try to understand this. You are asking a question that to me sounds like... "Does someone who suffers from a neurological disorder called alcoholism, classified as a potentially deadly disease by the American Medical Assoc, who does not have soundness of mind or clarity of thought, have the ability to process their thinking or decisions like a normal person who doesn't have the alcoholic ramifications of distorted reality?"

When asked that way... what answer are you capable of giving yourself to your question?

John

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

You have to understand sobriety and sanity to re-arrange the words so that the question(s) come out that way John, as I also learned and it took my HP, both programs and my sponsorship with all of the intense work to be able to understand and then rearrange the words properly. I have no awareness of trying to drown any thought feeling or action with alcohol for cause. I drank because I could and because that is what my family of origin did normally and naturally on a daily basis. Our lives surrounded alcohol and similarly were surrounded by alcohol. There were many justifications which were age old even including religious beliefs...so we drank. Yes we had problems because of drinking and still the justifications. Even then it wasn't a moral issue and therefore not bad...just normal. I had problems with those who had problems with my drinking and why they took it so seriously. I didn't arrive at the emotions of shame and guilt until after 9 years of program where HP decided to allow me to feel those without any insulation and the consequence was a profound shock. Most importantly those were the final emotions I needed to come to and feel to understand "my part in it". Denial was gone, justifications and rationalizations were also and I felt both shame and guilt as a full dual member of Al-Anon and AA. 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us/me to sanity. My last face to face amends came 22 years after I got into recovery and both my victims had lived that same period of time with the guilt that maybe they had caused the wreckage that had happened. Coming to understand and feel guilt and shame helped me to learn that even my victims could and would feel the negative strong emotions and so part of that amends was to "set them free of the blame" that they had automatically assumed for the wrong doing and it did. They were relieved in coming to understand while telling me that they would have never ever imagined the "amends" happening.

Alcohol is mind and mood altering and therefore when I drank I became different than those around me who didn't and when I did I thought, felt and acted in altered ways. I didn't only do things that came out bad...many things just came out crazy; immoral - insane and often hand in hand. I rarely even saw the connection to alcohol in either, I used other justifications and rationalizations. I never saw myself as alcoholic or as crazy. In order to see that and then convince me that I was took two programs of recovery and hundreds in the fellowship who shared their experiences with me to which I would nod in similarity to mine. I became convinced in spite of my own belief up until that time that I was powerless of alcohol and that my life had become unmanageable.

I had to change normality's (realities) and then came to understand. Mahalo HP and Al-Anon and AA. (((((hugs))))) wink

Irish7 · Senior Member

Thank you, John and Jerry for the additional perspective and e/s/h.

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