The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Hope for today talks about gossip....how the writer's mother used to share her flaws with the neighbors, etc.....
My parents did this to us kids...only they had no friends, so they gossiped with each other or other kids about the target's latest screw up....
I became a perfectionist to avoid being targeted by this pernicious behaviour....i set me up for failure and more rage and anger and dislike for me b/c I could not "measure up".......the judgmental atmosphere was overwhelming.......
so gossip, i began to hate.......
Al-anon says its one of the 3 obstacles to success in al-anon, we talk to each other..work stuff out...but let there be no gossip or criticism of another.....oh it was so freeing for me...not having to live up to another's sick standards ...
i avoid gossip....and doing that, I am staying away from control and judging.....i focus on me..one day at a time....
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Thank you, Neshema. I can relate most especially to growing up in a very judgmental environment where one experienced more criticism than praise and had their moral inventory taken often. For me that taking other people's inventory judges another person's motivations more than an action they have taken or are taking. Even the religious tradition I grew up in encouraged judging the state of another person's soul and deciding based on behaviors if they were going to heaven or hell. That set me up to become another person's HP more than it led to me gossiping. I can remember a mentor of mine saying that people judge behaviors but only a HP can see and judge the heart. I didn't like what I heard. I wanted to continue to judge my ex. I didn't want to believe that perhaps his HP saw his heart and wasn't denouncing him as I was. I felt morally superior to him and although I didn't criticize him outwardly, I did criticize and judge him inwardly. It kept my mind focused on him and what he was doing and not doing according to my standards. Learning to focus on myself, my motivations, my way of thinking and behaving and relaxing into a HP who didn't judge or criticize me helped me let go of wanting to be other people's HP by trying to judge their hearts/their motivations when the truth was I really had no clue of all the factors contributing to their mindsets or the motivations of their heart. It was freeing. I still slip into that old pattern of being other people's HP and I can feel the results of that fairly quickly. I've also been ambushed by other people's silent judgment and criticism and gossip about me. I could intuit it and feel it long before it was ever spoken aloud by the group/person trying to hide it. That has helped me remember that those habits can be life quenching not just for the other person who gets the brunt of it but me, too.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 2nd of February 2015 11:10:30 AM
Dear Neshema thank you for sharing your thoughts on the H FT reading for today. In my family "gossip "was the way we communicated, with and about each other. No one ever thought it harmful and no one understood that by breaking each of these confidences we were destroying trust and our ability to grow.
I also used gossip and criticism as a form of communication in my adult life because it was entertaining and kept people from asking questions about me.
When I entered Al-Anon and it was suggested that I eliminate gossip, blame, judgment and criticism I realized how deadly all of these activities had been. I must confess that when I was working at eliminating these negative tools, I had very little to talk about.:(
I found that by growing up in a family system that did not honor each other's personal information, I developed coping tools that protected me from the gossip. I refuse to share anything about myself with my family or others. In my childish way I thought this would protect me and keep me safe. I guess it did do that, however it kept me , my true self, walled in a prison of my own making. Attending Al-Anon meetings enabled me to bring those walls down slowly and begin to trust. What a gift that truly is.
I believe there is such a thing as ~good gossip~. Knowing where the boundary line is is a big deal for me... I know in my early Alanon people said nothing for fear of saying the wrong thing-
reason is obvious, and you have said it well... this is your share, so i won't go into my own family litany
...knowing what to say, and when is an art. Shucking off that judgemental veneer/crust I carry around took time... achieving trust and respect with people who deserve it is a gr8 help for me...
Gossip according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
: information about the behavior and personal lives of other people
: information about the lives of famous people
: a person who often talks about the private details of other people's lives
I know what gossip is in most instances and I don't know what it is in other instances. I know how I feel when I engage in what I know to be gossip and it is not who I am or want to be. I get confused sometimes, though. Was it gossip when I shared intimate details with my sponsor or therapist about the behaviors of my husband when I was so confused about what was and wasn't addictive behavior? There were times I felt guilty and disloyal for sharing, yet, if I hadn't I would not have had the healing I so desperately wanted. Maybe the gossip comes with the intentions of the conversation? This is a topic to ponder...thank you Rosie.
PP wrote: Was it gossip when I shared intimate details with my sponsor or therapist about the behaviors of my husband when I was so confused about what was and wasn't addictive behavior? There were times I felt guilty and disloyal for sharing, yet, if I hadn't I would not have had the healing I so desperately wanted. Maybe the gossip comes with the intentions of the conversation? This is a topic to ponder...thank you Rosie.
in my opinion, Paula, it was NOT gossip what you shared with your sponsor/therapist b/c it was done with INTENT to heal you, help you and yea, you didn't talk about his soul but his behaviour....Look at me talking about the beast!!! had i not been able to share what he did to me and HER too, i would not have been able to work through the pain there is a BIG difference between
"So and so slept w/her mailman and she is so butt ugly, he must have needed to put a bag over her head"
THEN
"Hello madam sponsor, I am struggling w/this step 4 issue about anger b/c my husband hurls insult after insult on me and I just keep growing new anger at his abuse to me"
so there is gossip to just put someone down, INTENT....and there is sharing pertinent info on someone in your life who is causing you to have to work steps 1,2,3 OR its get a .12 guage and blow him to kingdom come.........
JUST saying
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Paula thanks for the definition of gossip as I too struggled with sharing intimate details with others.
I agree with Neshema that sharing an intimate detail with a healing professional is not gossip but only a way of obtaining clarity and mental health. As with many things , it is the motive that is most important and that is why Al-Anon suggests that we continually examine our motives before taking action.
I know I gossiped about others as a form of entertainment and also to keep people away from me and getting too close and knowing me and my life. So no matter what I said about the person,good or bad "gossip" it was still not a positive form of communication for me.
Part of the motive, I think, is whether we expect the other person to actually keep it in confidence, and know and trust that they will, or whether we are just repeating to be repeating, even to the point of that we like it when we hear something come back to us.
Like if I were to come up to some people gossiping and one of them were to say "Kenny, you said that she slept with her mailman, right?". A gossip would feel pride in that circumstance to be a relay in the coconut telegraph. It could give one a cheap feeling of power.
If I had established confidentiality with another person, and have built up trust with that person, I could give many details about others without feeling like a gossip, but only if the details had to do with me and a problem I am working through. HOWEVER, even then telling about someone slept with the mailman would be gossip I would think, because it wasn't germaine to working through a problem with me.
On the subject of gossip - although I believe in talking things over and reasoning things out with people I trust who I know won't use what they learn against me or the person I am having trouble relating to in a healthy manner - I find it helpful to practice anonymity, too, depending on the person or the circumstance by not saying the name of the person who is involved with my dis-ease at the time. To me, sharing something positive that happened with a friend or family member of mine that I know they would be comfortable with me sharing or with their permission is not gossip. Things like sharing an award somebody has won, their marriage, a new baby or a website that features them and something they can do not require my silence unless I know the person is very private and very reserved. Then, I'd say nothing.
I think that gossip can also be avoided if I am willing to do the hard work of approaching the person I am having difficulty with at the time and talking with them privately. I don't like talking about another person behind their back and never going to them with something that is troubling to me. Even if I discuss an issue with somebody I trust, I still expect myself to make a healthy change or to go the other person directly after I have settled down and gotten in touch with how I'm truly thinking and feeling. Often, I'm hanging on to the issue because I haven't done my part in relationship with the other and still need to talk with them if they aren't dangerous or otherwise unable to or unwilling to hear me out. I'd expect myself to also want to hear what the other person might want to say that they are thinking and feeling in relationship to me about the same issue.
To me, this is a matter of doing what I'd want others to do in relationship to me. I can also state that I have slipped in this area in my lifetime and simply am not comfortable inside myself when I do it. The 10th Step helps with this when I know I'm wrong, need to make an amends and still needs my HP's help with removing a block to living at peace with myself and others.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 2nd of February 2015 04:36:09 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 2nd of February 2015 05:00:42 PM
and no one understood that by breaking each of these confidences we were destroying trust and our ability to grow. I also used gossip and criticism as a form of communication in my adult life because it was entertaining and kept people from asking questions about me.
In my childish way I thought this would protect me and keep me safe. I guess it did do that, however it kept me , my true self, walled in a prison of my own making.
Dear Betty, omg, this is so spot on....no wonder i had no trust and i stayed stunted..isolated..alone.....
I, too used gossip to keep the focus OFF me by the others....in the FOO it was my protection mechanism and in my later life, as you said, it kept people from asking questions about me....I was as sick as my secrets and I had a TON of them so to protect them, I did, too, gossip.......something that i hated "back then" i perpetuated to protect me..now how sick is THAT????
i, too, thought it would keep me safe...all it did was cause me isolation and walls....my own invisible prison.......boy you it the nail on the head......thanks Betty for being you and being HERE
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
grateful2be wrote:I wanted to continue to judge my ex. I didn't want to believe that perhaps his HP saw his heart and wasn't denouncing him as I was. I felt morally superior to him and although I didn't criticize him outwardly, I did criticize and judge him inwardly. It kept my mind focused on him and what he was doing and not doing according to my standards. Learning to focus on myself, my motivations, my way of thinking and behaving and relaxing into a HP who didn't judge or criticize me helped me let go of wanting to be other people's HP by trying to judge their hearts/their motivations when the truth was I really had no clue of all the factors contributing to their mindsets or the motivations of their heart.
(((((((((((((G))))))))))))) being another's HP.....bc i had to trust or respect for the god of my understanding back them, i really felt that HP should have been "fired" and I could do a better job..........really this is what I thought.....and all this what u r describig, I did the same thing.....again, it made me feel better about me (judging another and condemning him/her) and it kept others and my ownself from focusing on me....I didn't want to look at me.......too much wreckage.....alanon showed me that I am "OK" as i am b/c i cared enough to drag me into recovery and try to fix all this damage........
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
grateful2be wrote:I think that gossip can also be avoided if I am willing to do the hard work of approaching the person I am having difficulty with at the time and talking with them privately. I don't like talking about another person behind their back and never going to them with something that is troubling to me. Even if I discuss an issue with somebody I trust, I still expect myself to make a healthy change or to go the other person directly after I have settled down and gotten in touch with how I'm truly thinking and feeling.
I've done this...gone to a trusted recovery mate or my sponsor about someone i am having trouble wiht BUT...i pretty much always address it w/the other IF it is safe to do so b/c i prefer to "work it out..face to face" with the other whom i am having an issue with....I have gone to safe others whom i know will keep my confidences b/c i had to work through the emotions so i COULD deal with the one involved, but I do my absolute best to keep it all anonymous.....the anonymous thing is a big one for me..........what i hear stays with me.....what i have to share better stay w/the other or i don't share w/them ever again.......i agree with what u r saying here.......
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
If I had established confidentiality with another person, and have built up trust with that person, I could give many details about others without feeling like a gossip, but only if the details had to do with me and a problem I am working through.
for me the bottom line is....confidentiality and .......built up trust w/that person.....and ONLY if it is about me and a problem i am working through that happens to involve another...but like grateful said IF IT IS SAFE...I will go to the other and address the issue......I so agree, Ken....i think, reading all these posts that we are ALL on the same page...
I am glad to have been a part of this discussion
AND i agree, now, that CAL literature is the only real trustworthy stuff, i mean i will read other self help books, but if they are not on the same page as the al-anon literature is, i kinda lose interest....i have workbooks on working through my ptsd and my surviving my childhood that are good books but i take what works and leave the rest.....
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
D.
Neshema: Your wit and sense of humor is showing in your share. Giggle.