The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
So I was planning on leaving with the kids a couple days ago. I just could not find a time that felt right, with a kid recovering from sickness, my AH in and out of the house randomly, etc. He caught wind of my plans - I didn't think he would think 2 book bags with some books in them was an indication I was going to go - but he was more tuned in than I expected. This morning he caught me carrying something to the car... he ran to the car and saw I had stuff stashed in the back. So I acknowledged I was leaving, and it was because he had gotten drunk and mean on Monday. My mindset was to try to keep it short, sweet and simple, but I got sucked in to all his stuff.
The story he tells is that he drinks because he is sad, because we have a loveless sexless marriage. Everything with him is a "just" manipulation... "I just want a loving relationship" (with no acknowledgement of the things he does and doesn't do that stand in the way of that)... today I was in my car talking privately with my parents on the phone and he opened the door and excused his barging in with a "I just wanted to see if you wanted lunch"... and it goes on and on.
Anyhow, we both ended up dredging up every past thing, which just ends up in a spiral that resolves nothing. I kept bringing it back to the drinking, and the boundaries... the fact that I have needed more space than I get to heal myself, and the fact he doesn't honor those boundaries and is impatient. He drank secretly and created a train wreck in our family life, and because I didn't understand there was alcohol and drunkenness, not just unexplainable craziness, I was really traumatized, lost trust, and am still trying to crawl back from that. With him around all the time, wanting love and intimacy from me. I wish I was a better person, but this is all I can do for now.
So now... I haven't told the kids yet. I am at a bodywork appt with both of them. My AH is saying he should and will leave instead of us. Well, I have been asking him to do so for over a year, and he has refused. Now it is too late. I have rented this cottage for a few weeks. However - he is saying, let's have a nice family time tonight... sit by the fire and play games... tomorrow is the Superbowl... neither of the kids care about watching it. He is putting the onus on me that this decision is going to mess our kids up... and they won't want to go...
He is very manipulative in a way that comes across as a boyish, 'aw shucks, I just want everyone to love each other' kind of way. Whereas I am the dark and mean one. I get really sucked into all this.
I am just at a loss what to do next. Do I tell my kids we have this cottage, and they can choose for the weekend where to be? (as long as he doesn't drive). Do I wait til Monday, and just go get some peace and quiet myself? Do I tell them we are going because Mom and Dad aren't getting along? They will say they want to stay in their house, with their stupid TV, their new kitties, etc. He probably won't drink again now that it's in the open. I want to stick with my boundaries/consequences. I don't want to punish him. I don't want to derail his beginning to work with a counselor. He is so good at telling me how who I am and how I am drive him to drinking... while at the same time he says he knows I didn't cause it.
Ugh I am so sick myself.
-- Edited by oceanpine on Saturday 31st of January 2015 04:21:24 PM
I've learned to stick to my own plans and let the A or other dysfunctional person say what they are going to say. If I know I'm hearing manipulation, I don't give into it. As far as the kids choosing where to stay for the weekend - with an active A there is no guarantee they won't drive or pass out or start raging at the kids in your place. I'm not remembering the ages of your children if you've shared that? This is confusing for you. I'm sure it would be just as confusing if not more so for the children. Perhaps looking over your original plan might be a help to you in deciding what to do now - at least when it comes to what to do about the welfare of your children?
I *think* my AH is freaked out enough that he won't drink, but I am not sure.
He is so afraid of them knowing. Doing anything in his power to deny, minimize, etc. Same ol' story, huh. But they already know! I refuse to make them crazy by denying what is going on, but I am trying not to make him a bad guy. Just a confused and sick guy.
I guess I need to keep coming back to the fact that I can't trust him at all. Everythign he says could be the disease talking. But I get so sucked in, by his deeply emotional talk (he is an u;nbelievable romantic). And his shame.
Thinking I will talk this over with them after their appts are over. Just don't want to burden them with any more than is necessary.
Get this - today I was mentioning how I don't drink at home because I don't want to be in a habit of drinking alone. (He keeps telling me he is fine with my drinking wine at home.) His retort was that it is going to mess the kids up to grow up in a house with no alcohol. wtf??!! More so than growing up with a dad that nobody ever sees drinking, and suddenly we realize he's drunk?!
I've been through this. More than once. He will drink, that is, no situation or public embarrassment will stop him. In fact, the turmoil will give him all the more excuses to himself to drink. But they don't even need any excuses. He may try harder to hide the drinking, because of the circumstances. But all the times I said to myself, "He won't drink in this situation" - he would. Driving, driving the kids, in charge of an infant, when I was about to leave him, when he was in AA - none of those stopped him. Unless they are seriously working a program of recovery, they don't have the tools to stop. They only have the tools to follow the compulsion.
Meanwhile he's watching to see what happens when he makes a fuss when you leave. Does that control you? Is it an effective way of stopping you? Your next action will answer that question for him.
He is so good at telling me how who I am and how I am drive him to drinking... while at the same time he says he knows I didn't cause it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found, also, that I have to stick to my plans. Maybe you can shorten the end and come home early if the kids miss their tv and the kitties. You need to get away "just" to get away from all the "justs".
He will drink this weekend. He is an alcoholic and he "has to " drink.
Do what you need to do to take care of yourself.
-- Edited by maryjane on Saturday 31st of January 2015 05:03:36 PM
Meanwhile he's watching to see what happens when he makes a fuss when you leave. Does that control you? Is it an effective way of stopping you? Your next action will answer that question for him.
Thank you. I will try to keep this in mind as he makes a fuss.
If you are leaving with the kids because it is in your best interest and theirs, that is a healthy motive. If you are leaving to help him see what he is doing to the family, or trying to control his getting into treatment, or trying to make a statement, you won't be able to stay with your plan because your motives have to do with trying to fix, change or control him. We can't do that. We can only make changes that are in our best interest and in the best interest of our children because we know it is the only healthy choice we can make at the time.
Hmmm....I am leaving because it is in my best interests (of mental/physical health) to take a break from this situation; it doesn't seem able to happen with constant interaction. But I am making a statement too, or I guess following through with a statement I had made that I will leave if he is a mean drunk. I do believe it's in the kids' best interests though I don't know if they will agree. Will find out; about to talk to them.
I had to make sure of my motives when I separated and then later divorced my x. I did it because it was in the best interest of my children and me. Had I done it in hopes he got treatment, stopped using, saw what he was doing to me and the family, I would have been trying to control, fix or change him. That motivation is always doomed to fail.
I am concerned about his being a "mean drunk." I can understand that you want to talk with the kids. They may not agree with your plan and I think it is still good that you are willing to hear them out. Considering that you see him to be a mean drunk, perhaps that is the guidance you need to help yourself know what to do about the kids even if they don't agree? A word of caution. Some As get nasty and intimidating when sweet talk doesn't work. It is important not to engage with them because they want a fight. Physically, we aren't up to that challenge in most cases. Please take very good care of yourself, ocean. Active As can be very unpredictable.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 31st of January 2015 06:40:31 PM
Leaving is all about you. What you need. Not to punish him. As Grateful said, checking your motives is good, but once you have, then you know it is about you, and what you want. Nobody else knows what is good for you except you. You are the only one who has the possibility of knowing what you need.
Notice how often I typed "you"? That's because who this is all about. Your needs, which include your children's, since he isn't as capable of making decisions outside his disease. "No" is a complete sentence, and after your complete sentence, you don't have to any explaining. Or listening.
Some As get nasty and intimidating when sweet talk doesn't work. It is important not to engage with them because they want a fight. Physically, we aren't up to that challenge in most cases. Please take very good care of yourself, ocean. Active As can be very unpredictable
*****************************************
I agree with grateful...they don't want to be left to their own devices...they want their enabler, their life buffer....yea, their meal ticket and whatever other bennies, so yea, they can be as unpredictable as walking up to a strange dog....U just don't know what will set if off
also i read Kenny's post to you.....i would read that post again......this is about what YOU want, what YOU need, what is the best for YOU and those innocent children......too bad what he thinks....he brought this upon himself........this is about and for YOU.......and i agree....check your motives and also "NO" is a one word sentence....you don't have to engage , in fact, i recommend against engaging in any convo with him....Just GO!!!
i would also re-read grateful's post to you....what she said was spot on and from a heart of experience....
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
This is simple, yet not easy. This is the life you will have, only worse as time goes on. You are most likely looking at increased violence. Can you accept this future and make the best of it ? If not, the choice is simple. Are you attending any meetings?
You have given so much over the years, you really do deserve a break. I find when I take myself off to be with friends or gift myself a break I laugh more freely and a little bit of my core is restored.
I had a similar interaction to the one you've described here this week. I have been away with a friend for a lovely walking holiday and came back home full of beans. Within two days I was feeling crushed. I tried to explain to AH that I need regular breaks from him for my own benefit and health and that it is not an example of me wanting to punish him but all of the usual stuff was said and as you say, old stuff surfaced.
Despite not having had a drink for 18 months in amongst all the 'guilting' AH said to me 'perhaps you should start to drink, it might help you?' The insanity of that one sentence, bearing in mind what we both know about the past twelve years, has helped me to put all of the rest in perspective. We have some long term habits to break and I wish that I had remembered that one word 'no'!!
Like you, I struggle to wear my recovery with ease whilst AH is pulling at my apron strings. If you feel comfortable about it I would recommend sticking to your original plans - 100% for you.
I hear a HUGE merry go round of addiction and denial here. There is a saying "If nothing changes, nothing changes." Having the talks and having him spin his alcoholic distorted reasoning again and again and again just keeps that merry go round running.
And I give it 99 percent chance he IS drinking all the time, but just not getting trashed enough to pass out in front of you and/or the kids. You seem to think he's only drinking if he passes out in the living room. I really doubt that. Alcoholism is the one disease that tells the sufferer that it is the cure to the problem when actually it is creating the problems. I used to think the same things as your AH. I thought I drank because of relationship problems and a stressful job. In reality, my drinking was creating relationship problems and lowering my ability to cope with daily challenges such as those that present at any dang job.
So, I understand the need to get a break, to hold firm on your boundaries, but largely for you to get clarity and step of this BS merry go round of lies and manipulation and disease that is alcoholism. From what I hear in your posts, you are wanting so bad to communicate and listen to your husband. You are wanting him to make sense and in some strange ways, you can understand his logic BUT what he is really giving you is his disease. Alcoholism and (sick damaged alcoholic ego) are doing ALL the talking here and it is running your family life. Alanon will give you some clarity on that and how to stop it. The distance (for now) might give a bit of clarity also.
I am so sorry this is happening to you and your family. I don't think your husband is evil or bad even. He sounds like a standard extremely manipulative and deluded active drunk. Been there, done that.
Alanon has taught me to listen with my eyes and leave my ears out of it. My experience is my XAH believes what I do and not what I say. Me .. I want desperately to believe what he says and ignore/deny what he shows me. That was my part in the dysfunction in our relationship. Now I follow through even if it means he goes to jail. It's just not my issue anymore. My compassion is allowing the full consequences of his actions to complete. Mine chose to find a new enabler .. Its actually a relief. He's leaving me alone. So we will see .. His recovery our lack of its his to deal with I'm the show me state ... Show me the recovery lol and show me the money. I'm good. Hugs s :)
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
And I give it 99 percent chance he IS drinking all the time, but just not getting trashed enough to pass out in front of you and/or the kids. You seem to think he's only drinking if he passes out in the living room. I really doubt that.
I guess I need to better understand how alcohol/ism works. Last year AH's drinking reached a point where he couldn't keep it hidden any more - the effects suddenly spilled over, and he became nonsensical, arbitrary, slurred (kind of; not in a stereotypical drunk way) and begin to get verbally aggressive/mean. Once he quit, the difference was astonishing, in his appearance, presentation and how he conducted himself. And his ability to remain calm and walk away from arguments crazy me was launching into.
There is a handful of times where I have been pretty sure that he has drank again - not making sense is a sure sign. The kids suspect him of drinking when he can't make the tv remote work. BUT until Monday, it hadn't gone back to the above behavior for a few months. Can an A keep it on the down low, and consistently drink just enough to take the edge of life off, without tipping the scale to obvious drunk behavior? I guess I thought there wouldn't be enough willpower to do that.
So if anyone can enlighten me on that part of the process, I would appreciate it
I have an alanon friend here, who shared that when her A was an active A (many moons ago), negative symptoms connected to his drinking would show up 4 days later. Never any problems during or just after drinking. It took them a long time to make the connection. Yep it is cunning and baffling.
The need and desire to understand the alcoholic and typical behaviours is understandable but often before we ourselves are in recovery the motives behind it is about trying to reason with it or control it. If you get yourself to an alanon meeting and begin the process of recovery for yourself the understanding the disease is about helping you. When we live with alcoholism our thinking necomes distorted and we are not functioning as sane people. We too are cunning and baffling in our behaviours, in an attempt to be one step ahead of the alcoholic. The alanon website also has some really good literature that explains how it is with the disease and the peolle who live with it including your children. We get sick, all of us and if you get some sanity then you might find changes happen for your whole family, good changes.
So here is my update. Kids and I came back yesterday from being gone a few hours. My AH was very calm. He said he had spent the time while we were gone trying to see things from my point of view. I think he even said he understood, to some extent. I think he perhaps talked to his mom, maybe his sponsor, someone outside of his own echo chamber.
I had told the kids about my plan. They reacted as... kids. Only thinking about random stuff. I guess we will just take it a day at a time.
My AH cooked dinner and was jolly in a very strained way. I got the feeling he thought perhaps I would change my mind if he was nice enough. He also talked with our 12 year old about drinking and driving. I did not hear the conversation. He told our son he would never drink and drive. I don't believe that. I believe that last Monday when he was clearly drunk, if I had asked him to take our son to town, he would have. I think my son may remember last year, when he came home all indignant and said "Dad should live in Europe... he was driving on the wrong side of the road, very slow." Yikes. That was my first wakeup call.
BUT, trying to keep it simple for the kids, what can I say about that? I am getting good ESH here to believe what they do, not what they say. But what do I tell the kids about this? Can't say, "don't trust what your father says about this." I have said that for awhile, I don't want him driving them. But I don't want to put my sons in the middle of anything.
We are going to have a family breakfast and then I am slowly going to straighten up and pack up some stuff, and head down to our temporary new home later today.
The need and desire to understand the alcoholic and typical behaviours is understandable but often before we ourselves are in recovery the motives behind it is about trying to reason with it or control it. If you get yourself to an alanon meeting and begin the process of recovery for yourself the understanding the disease is about helping you. When we live with alcoholism our thinking necomes distorted and we are not functioning as sane people. We too are cunning and baffling in our behaviours, in an attempt to be one step ahead of the alcoholic. The alanon website also has some really good literature that explains how it is with the disease and the peolle who live with it including your children. We get sick, all of us and if you get some sanity then you might find changes happen for your whole family, good changes.
Thanks el-fee. I actually am pretty clear that my motive is to understand it so I can get my kids and I out of harms way. By understanding the signs, even if my AH is telling me something else. I am struggling with all of this so much, but I am clear that I cannot control it. On reasoning with it - I definitely have work to do.
My A had a period of low level drinking all the time, during which he appeared fairly functional and I wouldn't have known if I hadn't been snooping and knew how to snoop. Then sometimes he would tip over into blind-drunk non-functionality.
I think it's very possible to say to kids, "Your dad has alcoholism, which means that he means well but he can't always say what's true." Etc. etc. Otherwise they feel kind of weird because they'll notice that what he says doesn't match up with reality.
Oceanpine I am so sorry for what you are going through, I am so fortunate not to have children with my boyfriend, or to have ever moved in or made a long term commitment to him. Your statement about what your AH said to your son about "never drinking and driving" hit home with me too. My boyfriend adamantly told me today that he would never drive drunk and never has. But I know for certain he has in the past and with me in the car, although he denies it to this day (and he is in AA).
I think our only saving grace is to distance ourselves from the maddening statements, I realized today that I was falling back into my boyfriends twisted sense of reasoning. I get sucked in when he says he misses me. I miss him too, but I don't forsee a secure future for me at this point.
Take care of yourselves, my thoughts and prayers are with you.
Kat
I know alanon is about you, but the "I drink because because of being depressed over our loveless, sexless relationship" is the lamest, albeit one of the most common copouts I have ever heard from alcoholics. It is trying to shove off the drinking on you and it is NOT your fault. If you wanted someone to love you, why pick the behavior that is least appealing in response?
Also if you didn't love him, you would have left a long time ago. This is part of the crazy making behavior of an alcoholic. They go after your insecurities to keep the disease alive. Most alanoners are incredibly loving and if anything, overly devoted and caring. Please don't doubt yourself.
Also, not encouraging snooping, but yeah alcoholics can and often do maintain a secret level of regular drinking and they convince themselves it is helpful to them. They convince themselves that they have everyone fooled and therefore, when busted drinking, it is because of all sorts of reasons other than having a problem with alcohol. I had myself convinced I did every thing better drunk. My tolerance was also high so if I wanted to just maintain and hide it, I could do that for a while...walking around drunk and thinking how smart I was for fooling people....Not smart at all....
I agree with PC, my wife would have sworn on a pile of bibles that she hadn't been drinking both times when she DUIed. The second time she was going to school to pick up my son and a friend of his. She was just out of her rational mind at that pont, not mean or brash or spiteful. She just couldn't be trusted.
Oceanpine there is sooooo much ESH here pulling for you and all of it supportive of you following thru on your decisions rather than making a different decision to replace the decision you made before it. Sometimes this is called "second guessing" ourselves that we will come up with better ideas and clearer perceptions that we had not done before. This is what enabling is about and the consequence is that it only gets worse and sicker and defines insanity. Our literature talks about making a decision that we can work and work with and having the courage to follow thru along with a power greater than ourselves that we can rely on. When I vacillated on my decisions regarding what was best for me to do with the insanity of my alcoholic/addict relationship it only got worse and I got more self angry because it seemed I kept making the wrong decision. The wrong decision was in "not following thru on my choice" and turning my self over to the God of my understanding. Was part of my decision problem that I was looking for guarantees that what I chose would be the or a fix? yes in spite that the program said clearly that I didn't get any only the opportunity. Was part of my decision problem about fortune telling and crystal ball reading...trying to see beyond the choice and the motive and the moment...yes, I was fortune telling which is not what I was good at. There is such a thing as luck in life and in alcoholism almost all of the time it is bad luck and fortune and insane results that are realized. You are a member of the MIP family and our ESH, our shared stories are real and often very similar to each others.
Leaving isn't so good because you haven't left. How can you tell how it has or hasn't come out if you haven't followed thru. There is a bunch of ucky stucky stuff to go thru in order to create change...fear, faith, trust, courage, anxiety, doubt, and movement different than what we have done before. When it came time for me to change I didn't it inspite of the ucky stucky stuff. For me the opposite of fear is love and that means when I have come to love myself unconditionally and not want to keep myself in mind, body, spirit and emotional illness...I will have approached that door of courage talked about in the Serenity Prayer...The courage to change the things I can.
What ever I have you can have for free. All of it exist to be supportive. Keep coming back anyway. (((((hugs)))))
As a recovering alcoholic can I also say that this disease is cunning, powerful and baffling...all you have to do is give it an inch and a second and it will know how far and for how long it can drag you on. Alcoholics live off of their senses. When your alcoholic gets the sense that your moment is moving toward his intention you've been had...again. Say what you mean...mean what you say...don't say it mean. Good luck.
Hi ocean pine, first thank you for starting this thread, I'm in almost the exact position and am also hearing all the lies and projections on me and my actions, of course AH hasn't done anything wrong! To answer your question about the drinking just enough to get the edge off - ABSOLUTELY! My AH has been doing that for over 6 months, I haven't seen him actually take a drink of his beloved whiskey in over 2 years, he has also gotten better at hiding the bottles but actions are very telling. Once I gave up trying to find proof to prove I was right and trusted my instincts so much anxiety went away. Of course he's drinking he's an A doesn't matter time of day or day of the week. Mine has a good job and since he's cut back, as in not drunk several nights a week, he sees no problem and thinks everything is fine. I do hope your move goes smoothly - a book called "what's drunk mommy" was recommended to me for my kids, I haven't got a copy yet as my kids are younger but maybe that would help explain or alateen for them. Sending lots of support - takes a lot of courage to follow through on boundaries!
Leaving isn't so good because you haven't left. How can you tell how it has or hasn't come out if you haven't followed thru. There is a bunch of ucky stucky stuff to go thru in order to create change...fear, faith, trust, courage, anxiety, doubt, and movement different than what we have done before. When it came time for me to change I didn't it inspite of the ucky stucky stuff. For me the opposite of fear is love and that means when I have come to love myself unconditionally and not want to keep myself in mind, body, spirit and emotional illness...I will have approached that door of courage talked about in the Serenity Prayer...The courage to change the things I can.
---
Jerry, when I read the above, "Leaving isn't so good because you haven't left," I hit my head at the simple brilliance of it. And fortunately, I read it right AFTER I left... though I think otherwise it would have gotten me off my duff.
Spent the first night in the new cottage last night. Had a good long sleep. Would like to stay here and hibernate, but need to start my day; luckily, with a counseling session.
I will post more later. Not sure what yet, but I will try to get through all the icky stuff one moment at a time.
Oh, good. I'm glad you were able to make a change that resulted in you getting a good, long sleep! That alone would help me feel like a brand new person with a good shot at a brand new and happier future starting with this one day that is mine to make the most of myself and my life according to some new Al-Anon tools to include gratitude and folks in the fellowship.
It's always good to listen to children's feelings. Sometimes we have to do what we know is best for them regardless of how they feel, maybe if they can keep their TV and the kittens with them, I don't know sometimes we have to just do the best we can and not know for sure what he results will be.
Staying strong, loving YOU and making the best choice you possibly can at the time is always the best for your kids in the long run.. they will look back and say.. MOM did what she felt was best for us and made the best decision she could with the information she had at the time.
It may take a while, as children ( like alcoholics, don't always know what they feel and mean or what is best)
I *think* my AH is freaked out enough that he won't drink, but I am not sure.
He is so afraid of them knowing. Doing anything in his power to deny, minimize, etc. Same ol' story, huh. But they already know! I refuse to make them crazy by denying what is going on, but I am trying not to make him a bad guy. Just a confused and sick guy.
I guess I need to keep coming back to the fact that I can't trust him at all. Everythign he says could be the disease talking. But I get so sucked in, by his deeply emotional talk (he is an u;nbelievable romantic). And his shame.
Thinking I will talk this over with them after their appts are over. Just don't want to burden them with any more than is necessary.
Get this - today I was mentioning how I don't drink at home because I don't want to be in a habit of drinking alone. (He keeps telling me he is fine with my drinking wine at home.) His retort was that it is going to mess the kids up to grow up in a house with no alcohol. wtf??!! More so than growing up with a dad that nobody ever sees drinking, and suddenly we realize he's drunk?!
Wow, all I can say to this is that I only wish I had grown up in a household where there was no alcohol.
