I like this bunches - Al-Anon Family Group

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I like this bunches

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

What happens though, if its only you that thinks this way? What i mean is, what if its your interpretation of what is mean or hurtful thats wrong or skewed or different from the majority. If 10 people dont see the meanness that you see, or if your the only one to view it that way and everyone else sees the love and care behind the words and honesty, can you think for a moment that you are wrong in your views?

In my experience i can hold fast to a thought, react, make a big fuss and then calm down long enough to look at my own motives and see the bigger picture and then realise that i was plain and simply wrong. I used to find this really hard because then i would get really ashamed, now though i can admit im wrong and make my amends, clear the air, not judge an other and their motives. Were all in recovery and we should be gentle with each others wrongs. Ive found when i get it wrong here and i apologise people are so lovely about it and no shaming.

there is a reading in one of the readers where 2 people watch a movie, when it ends they discuss it and have completely different perseptions of what the film was about. They could argue the point and go on and on about it or they can each accept that they have different views and has one the right to insist the other is wrong?

-- Edited by el-cee on Saturday 10th of January 2015 03:35:20 AM

-- Edited by el-cee on Saturday 10th of January 2015 05:03:42 AM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

el-cee wrote:

In my experience i can hold fast to a thought, react, make a big fuss and then calm down long enough to look at my own motives and see the bigger picture and then realise that i was plain and simply wrong. I used to find this really hard because then i would get really ashamed, now though i can admit im wrong and make my amends, clear the air, not judge an other and their motives. Were all in recovery and we should be gentle with each others wrongs. Ive found when i get it wrong here and i apologise people are so lovely about it and no shaming.

-- Edited by el-cee on Saturday 10th of January 2015 03:35:20 AM

OMG, how many times have i , in recent times sat on my thone, thinking i am RIGHT and justifying and rationalizing it till hell freezes over only to call my sponsor or to just meditate and find out i am DEAD WRONG.....an old trigger....or an unresolved past thing clouding my thinking...some sort of unfinished business with my friggin PAST, again, causing it........

oh man, i remember how i used to get on here and "hard sell" alanon...beat people up for not working the program like "i thought they should" now there are folks who game the program...mock it by refusing to work it seriously and expecting others to enable them, yea, sure!! but even THEN, it is not my right to judge...to condemn.....it IS my right to detach...let go.....give them to their maker, but I do remember those ugly days when i would bash a member in pain who was not "working like i do" well??? maybe my way is NOT for them.....I do agree...the steps, meetings, slogans, literature are essential to growth....one cannot grow w/out them, but still!!! if they want to just slog along, who am i to tell them what to do and put them down for it???? I did this....When detachment was the better, healthier choice.....

And I too, have seen this and made amends.....and i have learned the beauty of forgiveness here...the beauty to agree to disagree, in PEACE....even if i don't like a member, it is encumbant upon me to show them human decency and work my separate journey....

this community has taught me what love is and is not...it has taught me that i can be imperfect, screwed up, acting out and i am still loved and accepted....I can be the real deal w/out fear of reprisal or attack......i am REAL and i always was, but had to hide it in the past to survive....well i don't have to just survive anymore, I can thrive....i can be me........like me, dislike me, but it will always and forever be the REAL me , and through this program I can live in REALITY....

Perception is a big thing...it can cause wars, it can cause horrible acts upon others....it can also bring about kindness and even love...depends on the heart behind that perception........how we *perceive" is what triggers what emotions, then the behaviour due to the emotions, which leads to habits with lead to character......it all starts w/the data that enters our brains....how we PERCEIVE that data.....what is sugar to one, may be salt to another....that is why i like the slogan.....live and let live..............JUST saying

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

During your times of judging and bashing the newcomer is a fear based thing. I can relate to everything you say here, I can feel that way too, not about newcomers but those who i view as not dojng the work. It does come from impatience and perfectionism and i can also be triggered and i can get annoyed when i hear really similar stories that i have lived through, its like seeing in a mirror the bits you still dont want to see because they were not nice to live through. I can get tempted to shout at people as if im shouting at me while i was living it. The closer it is to my experience the more reactionary i can be. I suppose that we cant ever be perfect, even if we have years of recovery it doesnt mean we can always give the good esh we might want to. We get it wrong, im wrong quite a lot, im just a bit better wrong if that makes sense. I think its good to be able to honestly look at our own shortcomings and motivations i think that means we are still recovering, its ongoing but it is moving forward. When i thinkmof how i lived my whole life thinkjng i was always right, lol. In fact i distorted the world and people so that i could believe i was always right. So much pressure on myself and everyone else in my life. How good is it to be able to be wrong without any fear?

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Deb said...... All I know is I just cannot put up with someone hurting another person. Even if what one states is truth, for me it only hurts others and brings negativity.

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why??? if the other is trying to help, why NOT tell the truth??? do we walk on crack egg shells like at home???? or "dont' rock her boat, she may get pissed or have a hissy" so we shut up and live a lie????

Deb, i am not sure i am getting this....I care a lot about you, but not sure about this part.......I would rather be hurt by the TRUTH then be devastated by lies, enabling, bullS****..............i think negativity is when one is vicious, cruel, mean spirited.....how about we look at the heart BEHIND the truth b4 we pass judgement???? isn't that a wiser choice???

I personally WANT the TRUTH...if it stings??? well, i have a choice....learn or repeat the same lessons......"hurting another person" can be taken in a lot of ways....now if i walk up to someone and kick them in the shins and laugh, yea, i am negative for sure..........However, if i walk up to the same person and tell them I won't give them a handout b/c i know they are gonna buy booze, but if they want food really, lets walk to the grocery store....i am hurting their gaming me, I am hurting their "feelings" b/c i am on to them , but i am also saying...i'll buy you food, but i won't help you drink.....

what is hurtful to one may be a life saver to another.........JUST saying.......I see this "hurting another" and I am thinking, sometimes my sponsor hurts my feelings to get me out of a pity party or a "stuck" position i am taking re: a problem..............HUGS

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Deb said It helped me to never be bitter or hateful towards my A. His adversities were his own, he knew what they were, it was not my job to point it out. All I wanted to do was let him know he was loved, even when he was battling the demons of his disease.

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i was bitter and hateful and i paid for it in stress and more anxiety re: my EX#1 who was abusive and a JERK.......now?? if i saw him?? i would just walk on by with detachment.....bitterness an hatred takes too much energy and it puts bad energy in the body.....and yea, it wasn't my job to teach my Ex......i teach people how to treat me by the way i treat myself.........i still love my Ex #2, but i was right to end it......

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

el-cee said..........During your times of judging and bashing the newcomer is a fear based thing. I can relate to everything you say here, I can feel that way too, not about newcomers but those who i view as not dojng the work. It does come from impatience and perfectionism

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actually it wasn't so much the newcomers, in fact I am quite patient with them, when i think about it, for the MOST part, its the ones who have been here for a while and are still not doing the work, steps, slogans, etc...i guess its b/c i hate to see a person self destruct like i used to do and i agree with the "it does come from impatience and perfectionism" yep.....I hate to see folks day in and day out, month in an month out doing the same ole same ole with no solution mindedness, but it is NOT my business nor my right to judge or interfere......

i hold this program as sacrosanct ....it saved my life....when i see people come in and they are not serious, i think i have to "convert" them, and it is NOT my right to even "go there".....they will either flourish or fall....its their right...their choice....i will give my esh and support and let them choose.....i would want that same right of choice.......so it was wrong of me to try to take that choice from another.....

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

I really like this one too and have been trying to keep it as a motto in how I want to present my thoughts and am finding it a good navigation tool. As most of us have experienced, sometimes the truth hurts and acceptance comes with difficulty. There are plenty of times in my life when a truth hurts and is difficult to accept; acceptance, when it comes, is a necessary tool for moving forward. When I'm experiencing a truth that hurts where I need to interact with someone related to the situation, THINK helps provide the compassion in my expression and words... I'm a work in progress... practice, practice, practice...

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

I believe that it is fine and admirable to hold these principles for myself and to live by them. The moment I attempt to enforce them on others I am in trouble.

Being powerless over others means in" all my affairs." Courtesy and respect works wonders and as the 12 Step suggests "practicing the alanon principles in all my affairs a great guideline.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Dear Deb My posts sound like I am critiquing you. But they are not. I just have ?? On this one and am processing. I like what Betty said. I am soo a work in progress. I meant what I said re being hurt with truth vs being lied to or my denial fed. But check the heart behind it. Be it my heart/motive. Or the sender I get a lot of what you are saying. The "hurtful". Thingy I had a question on. Not indicting you. Just processing within Hugs. Hope u r feeling better ci know you haven't felt so good of late. I am reading 12 steps of self parenting and I am processing stuff within me the steps can bring out some ???s for me. But I like this post bc it it is making me think Hope this made sense.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

A teacher I knew would always suggest before speaking we ask ourselves, is it helpful or hurtful? I heard it so many times that it comes to mind automatically.
I like your one bunches too.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks for the share, Debilyn.

I'm not sure if this relates or not to THINK: Is what I'm about to say thoughtful, honest, important, necessary, kind? Only I can decide that for me because my values are not always the same as others. I can't always determine by somebody else's reaction whether or not what I have said is helpful or not. As an example: Active As in my life have gotten very upset when I've said no to requests for money, rides, and other things. Some believed that if I truly cared about them, then I'd do what they wanted me to do. I'd get confused by their reactions and think I'd done something wrong because they were angry because I said "no." I tried to live according to what they thought was right and kind and what I should have said or done.

I'm only responsible for being true to my own values and principles and understanding of this program's tenets. Only I can decide if what I'm going to say is that - for me. I've tried to control other people's reactions in the past by saying what I thought would be thoughtful, honest, important, necessary and kind according to them and their values. That got very confusing for me until I realized that it was manipulation on my part to try to live according to somebody else's values, perspectives and insights. I have to live according to mine and apply them to that invitation to think before I speak or I'm being emotionally dishonest and falling back on people pleasing which for me isn't a healthy place to be.

I've also caught myself wanting others to live according to my value system and principles and that was a mistake, too. Learning how to live and let live - what a difficult lesson this has been for me.

I slip and slide on both sides of this coin but my sponsor is helping me so much with it as are the people in my programs and on this board.

I'm grateful for it all.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 10th of January 2015 10:58:17 AM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 10th of January 2015 11:24:35 AM

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I was talking about my A, my Mother etc that I did not put up with anyone hurting them or being disrespectful. Or if I see something or someone being hurt, at the store or the bank or whatever, I am not one to just sit back.

It does not matter who is right or wrong when there are rules broken. its not personal or out of reaction. You run a red light, you get a ticket. It is not the police person making the decision. I am walking fw from things.

I am not a sheeple. I don't care if the whole room says the room is green, and I know it is red, I will stick to it.

Do you know that there are tests that if you have group of people and almost all KNOW something is not right, they will side with the majority? Look at racism, look at fracking, etc. Most all decisons are made by the majority. that does not make them right.

IF this were so, we would not fly, have watches, drive, do brain surgery, have a mail system, etc.

It is the square pegs who make the changes. Most are not popular.

It begins with me. I don't react, I stick to the rules as close as I can being imperfect. i will take a pen back if I leave with it from a store, i will tell the checker she did not charge me for something. I don't cuss, I don't lie. My life is based on following the rules. IN all things, spiritual, and more. I drive the speed limit, i always share with homeless and people and animals in need.

when I have a job I was taught by family to do your best.

Rules are rules. So reacting with out thinking is not a good thing for me. I like to think.

When A was so sick, he blew it bad on jobs. I didn't know till he was not getting paid. i went to these homeowners who were friends, they told me what they saw. I let them know I was so sad, and shared about

a's brain damage was so apparent then. But those people insisted it was becuz he was a low life A. did that help? was that good information?

People are messy, life is messy. Just seems better to keep emotions out. There are consequences for our behavior. That is life.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

good question el cee. how can it be good to not fear being wrong.

For me knowing I am a very imperfect human, I know I am going to be wrong. I do not fear it as if I am wrong, I just need to learn from it. If my Mother corrected me, it was to help me not to hurt me.

My hp has taught me it is good to be corrected, it mean one cares very much.

I completely understand what some are saying. I AGREE! However for me it does no good to point out a flaw or truth about someone if they do not hear it!!!! It is fine if you share it with them. it is out of love then. But to talk about ones truths or flaws, negatives, behind their back is not acceptable to me. That is a big rule that is enforced.

In fact some of us have shared with our dear member this truth to her face! That is very ok. does this make sense?

I never ever bash anyone. I would never bash a newcomer!!! Where did you get this?IF I seemed to please let me know. geez I would be horrified if I sounded like that!IF I did or do please tell me to my face so I can change the behavior. I believe we only learn when things are rough.

Guess I am an enigma.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

What a load of hypocrisy this all is.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Aren't we all hypocrites to some degree, elcee? Isn't that why we're in the program - all at varying stages of healing and growth? I can't say I'm totally free of all the masks I wear, but I know I'm more transparent and free than I used to be. To me, a hypocrite is an actor who says one thing and does another. I'm working on congruency - and I'm not there yet. I don't lie and I don't keep secrets when I see an issue that is harmful or can be harmful to a whole lot of people but I don't reveal names or sources. That's up to others to decide what to do with whatever issue is raised. I do keep people's confidences and I do care about people. Yet, I'm still prone to at least thinking how other people could improve when it's me who needs to do the improving as I recognize what is still the not yet in me. I'm not ashamed about that. It's part of what this program has helped me see. I still don't have my own act together. I don't know anybody else who does totally either. I just see people doing the best they can with what they've got to work with and making changes when they can according to what their own HP leads them to do and falling down from time to time, too. I can go right back into teacher, preacher, lecturer and judger role and fortunately I know that is true about me and that I have a program to guide me and the fellowship to listen to, too, for what might be a solution to use now that is better for me.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 10th of January 2015 04:18:00 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 10th of January 2015 04:23:46 PM

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I really like this post. It is helping me see that group think may not always be right. It is true that change is initiated by someone who is not very popular at first. It is helping me see compassion and allowing others to work through issues. It is is also helping me see how we treat ourselves is how we treat others. When I am reading the post, this is what comes to mind? I must be true to myself while still honoring others boundaries (values). The "how" is the tool THINK.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Deb ... I do not think you are too protective or sensitive. I find that those that really value kindness often get told that in society.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth I have learned so much about myself on mip. It is to my detriment to want to give someone lots of chances. I had to learn to not do this. My students would then learn oh well she will give me some chances. Then push it. In their adult life they needed to know to stick to the rule in may circumstances.

BUT I also learned if for instance they were sitting there kicking someones chair, I told them to knock it off or I would hang them by their thumbs... they had do it ONE more time. (c:

I did learn something valuable from El-cee our respected pistol. Even when a rule is broken, or whatever, I need to go to pm.

I believe i need to think in my head now, what is the best way to diffuse in situations. Usually we talk it out.

Raising a son, my being a widow single mom, I had to do lots of this. He was driving too fast on our road. A neighbor freaked flagged me down and yelled at me! I had NO idea he was doing this! I kept quiet, listened, then asked him if he was ready to listen to me.

I told him I had no idea, that it would be delt with asap. My son went do him and apologized. My son and a friend were shooting a sign across the road!!!! My quiet sweet neighbor was moving out. I talked to her and found out it scared her. well of course it did! She told me she was moving anyway but...my son and friend apologized, offered to help her move....

i learned to talk things out.

So I do this with everyone there is a conflict with.Trouble is I go too far,give too many chances. Then I get into trouble.. sigh.

We need you please keep giving us your valued esh

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Your story makes smile

I always wonder how people think someone can understand when they are yelling? Lol

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Debilyn wrote:
Or if I see something or someone being hurt, at the store or the bank or whatever, I am not one to just sit back. Look at racism, look at fracking, etc. Most all decisons are made by the majority. that does not make them right.It is the square pegs who make the changes. Most are not popular.It begins with me. I don't react, I stick to the rules as close as I can being imperfect. i will take a pen back if I leave with it from a store, i will tell the checker she did not charge me for something. I don't cuss, I don't lie. My life is based on following the rules. IN all things, spiritual, and more. I drive the speed limit, i always share with homeless and people and animals in need.Rules are rules. So reacting with out thinking is not a good thing for me. I like to think.People are messy, life is messy. Just seems better to keep emotions out. There are consequences for our behavior. That is life.

(((((((((((Deb))))))))))) I DO see what u r saying here....I do the same thing...and yea, racism makes me sick..fracking our mother earth, i get sooo angry about it...all the damage it is doing...and yea, i am not a sheeple, and i get into trouble, but i don't care....i hear ya...i am square peg, too.........i return pens, once i walked back into store as i was loading my stuff in my truck and told the gal she 4got to charge me for my elect. blanket...they were so shocked at store, they didn't believe me.......I DO CUSS, but i do not do it around children or the elderly.....i DONT lie...NO, HATE lying.......I try to follow rules as best of my ability....i will share what i can, after my needs are met....wary of people but will call 911 for anyone looking to be in strife....animals, i feed the critters outside, bowls of water in summer and left overs on my plate??? toss them outside if they are not harmful to the wild ones....i try to respond rather than react but i fail at times......and i agree i am practicing to leave emotions out...........and i also agree....consequences to good or bad behaviour....if i put out good energy, i attract same.......if i put out bad energy, i attract unwanted same.....i have to reap what i sow as anyone else.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

grateful2be wrote:
Aren't we all hypocrites to some degree, elcee? Isn't that why we're in the program - all at varying stages of healing and growth? I can't say I'm totally free of all the masks I wear, but I know I'm more transparent and free than I used to be. To me, a hypocrite is an actor who says one thing and does another. I'm working on congruency - and I'm not there yet. I don't lie and I don't keep secrets when I see an issue that is harmful or can be harmful to a whole lot of people but I don't reveal names or sources. That's up to others to decide what to do with whatever issue is raised. I do keep people's confidences and I do care about people. I just see people doing the best they can with what they've got to work with and making changes when they can according to what their own HP leads them to do and falling down from time to time, too.

(((((((((((((((((G)))))))))))))) this is how i feel......a FINE post, my dear sister in recovery.....I am SO on the same page....yea, i can wear the mask, too, out of fear of job loss or physical danger, sure!!!! i am way more transparent then i used to be......I am naturally REAL and I DONT lie, DONT cheat, but if my literal life is on the line???? hey i am gonna survive, but in NORMAL circumstances, i work on congruency as well....I also don't keep secrets if to tell is the better choice in protecting the innocent, or greater whole, and I NEVER repeat who told me this or that and in private one on one conversations, I NEVER EVER repeat what i say, never betray the one who shared w/me...this goes back to the FOO...nothing was sacred....things told in confidence were in the family public news within hours....I hated this.....nothing was sacred or special......so i learned to , not betray, no!! but i learnd to NOT share MY confidences...

I had a beloved sponsor who made the mistake of betraying me to my recovery girlfriend who was so outraged, she TOLD me and she did not cover up re: the source b/c this was my SPONSOR and HER sponsor....i , after i got over my sadness and sense of betrayal confided in her that this same sponsor was telling me about HER stuff....so we agreed, to stay in line w/openess, we did a private , pal talk chat room meeting....all three of us....and my GF and i confronted sponsor and we both told her we were done w/her and that betrayal of ones confidences were unacceptable adn completely violated alanon, et al and that we wished her well, she tried to lie and deny, but we "had her cold" situations, dates, etc., we nailed her to the wall....some of it wasn't pretty, but it was private between the 3 of us, and then we ended the convo, dumping the sponsor....we never told anyone who/what happened....we just agreed to "pair up" as recovery mates and to this day she is one whom i trust very very much and its mutual.......

i know this is kinda off the beaten path, but this is how strongly i feel about betrayal....stuff that is said to me STAYS with me...and if i ever find out my confidences are broken??? NO 2nd chances......

I am as sick as my secrets...and there have been other times i have had to bring out in open, but i just don't name sources.....what you did, Catherine , bringing it up in the open, I wanted to hug you and THANK you for stepping up in the name of honesty, decency and bravery...........it is NOT easy doing what is right....but i won't have it any other way

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

What are you talking about neshema?

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

el-cee wrote:
What are you talking about neshema?

el-cee i am processing some stuff......I happen to like what grateful said and it reminded me of some stuff....I did say my post may be off the beaten path--maybe it was more than i thought, but I invite others to take what they like and discard the rest...I kept the focus on me and my processing some stuff....I rechecked my post...it seemed clear to me...just one processing recovery.....

-- Edited by neshema2 on Saturday 10th of January 2015 07:35:33 PM

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Might just be me neshema, just feeling some funky vibes from this place, not sure if people are sharing based on an individual post or if theres some underlying message going on, some underlying truth not really being said. Is this what people mean about people feeling safe coming here because to be honest i dont.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

El-cee I hope you feel safe ... I know that feeling it is not fun. (((Hugs)))

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

el-cee wrote:
Might just be me neshema, just feeling some funky vibes from this place, not sure if people are sharing based on an individual post or if theres some underlying message going on, some underlying truth not really being said. Is this what people mean about people feeling safe coming here because to be honest i dont.

there are NO underlying messages on my part...I repeat....NO UNDERLYING messages on my part....i am sorry you don't feel safe....I didn't feel too safe when the drama started, but then i realized i was powerless over all things outside of me and i let it go.....I am what I am and that is what I am...I am processing MY stuff to work MY recovery.......pm me anytime u want to talk.......thats all i can say............PEACE

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

LC Being safe is the most important thing and that is why alanon works. Hidden messages, double talk, saying one thing an doing another, hidden agendas are all part of the disease and not what it is all about.

It is learning to be honest and truthful and respecting each while we share our truths -- that is the most important.

We have had a few days of confusion here and that may be why the unsafe feeling is pervasive Please know that your an important part of my recovery and using the tools should help to restore you to serenity.

If this happened at a face to face meeting we would take a moment of silence and say the serenity prayer Maybe that is what we should all do and keep coming back.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you Hotrod

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Just one of the tools of courage for me is detachment. Detachment places me outside of the event real or perceived. I get to keep my peace of mind and serenity in spite of the inclination to exert my self which cannot not happen as long as others are involved; participating. When I give into the inclination I am no longer detached I am contributing...how? why? what do I want out of it or hope to get out of it? The answers to those questions suggest what I do next...detach? manipulate?...From my elder sponsor Don T...."When in doubt?...Don 'T ((((hugs)))) smile

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.