The material presented
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to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I have been on the MIP board for a little over two years. I am grateful for meeting you all, sharing my e/s/h and learning more.
Recently, it came to my attention that there is group private messaging going on in the background on our board. I am a direct person and I will say directly that I know I can't stop this and I also know it is damaging or will become damaging to some people on our board. This is the alcoholic family way of operating in my experience and some folks could be scapegoated and badly harmed and they won't even know why or what is happening because nothing is being dealt with out in the open. I am also concerned that some folks may be helped in ways that are actually harmful to them and that troubles me, too, because I have seen so many folks destroyed because people would not respect them and their abilities enough to let them struggle and fall - both those who are alcoholics and those are codependents.
I know that I am in process right along with the rest of you. I also know that overcoming the effects of this disease cannot happen when there are groups of folks operating in the background and not dealing directly with something in the open with all who are part of the same collaborative or just leaving something alone. I have no problem with individuals privately pm'ing one another to talk things over and reason things out. I do have a problem with groups discussing another member and choosing only a few from the group proper to do that.
Thank you for letting me share this space with you. I'm grateful to you for what I've gained that was sincere and genuine. I've given that to you as well.
Catherine, I understand and agree. I am deeply sorry that I will no longer see your posts. I have appreciated your wisdom, integrity, kindness and deep compassion. When you spoke to my posts I felt your sincerity and truth touching me deeply. Blessings dear friend.
OH this is AWFUL.....I will support you in your decision....I will always be your friend, but this is terrible loss to the board if you are leaving.....I wil miss you so very much...
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I am so sorry to hear that. You have truly been one of the people that have helped me go a little deeper by just asking a clarification question. I too find your posts inspiring, humble, gentle and full of compassion. I loved how you can not only speak about the program but use it practically and explain how to use a tool. That is rare to find. I respect your decision, however I am sad not to have your wisdom. Thank you and with much gratitude. ((((Grateful))))
grateful2be wrote:I have seen so many folks destroyed because people would not respect them and their abilities enough to let them struggle and fall - both those who are alcoholics and those are codependents.
I have no problem with individuals privately pm'ing one another to talk things over and reason things out. I do have a problem with groups discussing another member and choosing only a few from the group proper to do that.
(((C))) i am re-reading this post and 2 things stick out......re: letting them struggle and fall.....no matter how much i loved and enabled and helped my EX AH#2, I did NOT help him, I may have DELAYED his ever getting into recovery.....then the disease b/c of MY interfering in his struggle got worse and he was too far into his sauce to be helped in MY life, so i cut him loose...cried...hugged him.....but i cut him loose to fall, fail, to learn and HOPEFULLY get nto AA
the 2nd thing disturbs me...i am reading "privately pm'ing one another" yea, i agree....pm's is for private talks and working out disagreements in private....i agree.....but this:; "groups discussing another member and choosing only a few from the group proper to do that" this has an ominous "smell" to me.....am i reading this right??? are there cliques or small gatherings discussing members and not being open, but to a select some???? you also mentioned being in the open, YES....unless i am working out a problem w/another member , then i pm with that ONE member to work out issue.........not sure i am reading into sentence #2 correctly, but if i am, that is very very unsettling to me.....safety is a BIG thing w/a lot of us.....sure hope i am reading this wrong......
i will miss you sooo very much...your gentle wisdom, your caring spirit, your wonderful openness and your just being YOU....but b/c I care so much for you, I will sadly support your decision, b/c i want you to do what is best for you.....real love is letting one go if he/she needs to go........
as i said....I WILL MISS U if you are leaving....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I participated in a group email I received this morning and I regret not having the where with all to point out the inappropriateness of it. For this, I am sorry Catherine. As I am reflecting on your post and pairing it with my experience today, I am wondering how many more group emails occur behind the scenes. This was my first and only experience.
I participated in a group email I received this morning and I regret not having the where with all to point out the inappropriateness of it. For this, I am sorry Catherine. As I am reflecting on your post and pairing it with my experience today, I am wondering how many more group emails occur behind the scenes. This was my first and only experience.
WOW....if this happens now, how many others are being "scrutinized" via group emails that exclude members/include others??? and ominous thought "wondering how many more group emails occur behind the scenes"
this is very very uncomfortable smelling to me AND not healthy not safe...
so i did read into Catherine's post correctly......wish i was wrong.........
WOW!!!! thank you Catherine for stepping up and addressing something I am clueless about, but I would rather be in the truth then to be in blindness........
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Catherine I am sorry to read this. I experienced something similar many years ago at a face to face meetings. My sponsor asked :Why are you abandoning something (alanon) that you are finding beneficial because of the actions of a few.? She went on to say that we are all in program to work on our issues and when these issues surface walking away only hurts me because I deprive myself of the benefit of the program. By abandoning the program, I was in essence abandoning myself and not hurting anyone else. I listened and remained
We are all imperfect human beings traveling a difficult road I hope you reconsider..
Thank you, Betty. I've seen subgroups like this split my home group and my own FOO. I won't be abandoning the program and I simply know there is little I can do that would be genuine on the board at this point. I will contact you privately. I am sorry I just can't continue. I have seen what can come next. I do appreciate all I have learned and all that I have received in genuine and sincere support and I'm so very grateful for it all and for all that I have met. I will hold everyone's confidences in my heart.
Catherine, I have always looked forward to reading your wisdom and compassion. I have learned so much from you and your posts have made me examine myself so deeply. It appears to be the human condition that there are always those who need to belong to a ' secret clique'. I know you have to do what you feel you need to but this board will be so much poorer if you go.
I am sitting here thinking...here i show my HEART...that agnostic post of mine was DEEP...my struggle, questioning my HP, and other posts i have done......I can't help but to wonder have I been a "group grope" target by a few who decided to have their own discussions about me??? Some of my stuff has been pretty provocative and even controversial...........
This is very unsettling....I share my heart, thinking it is on the board and ONLY on the board....not subject to a private group caucus.......
Openness is the hallmark of my recovery...in my FOO you had subgroups....they would co dependently discuss this one or that one and of course the "target" was unaware.... I couldn't help but to think "when is it gonna be my turn???"
I did not receive such a message....my inbox was empty......I guess I am not part of this special subgroup....oh well, i was never a water cooler person.....I don't agree with it.....
Gonna really think what kind of posts i want to share....Safety is a very very hot topic for me.........just saying.....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
In thinking about this issue, I believe that it is important to continue to practice alanon principles in all my affairs even at meetings as well as on this Board.
"What other people think of me or say about me is none of my business" I must examine my motives, place principles above personalities, say what I mean and mean what I say and to say it mean and live one day at a time trusting HP
We all come here broken and in need of each other in our individual recovery programs. I have benefited greatly from you and your ESH several times. When our church split a few years back and some that I loved decided to leave for a new direction I stood my ground and knew people will make decisions that cause ripples, but I will stay the course, until something directly makes me rethink my decision for a better direction. I am here perfectly imperfect needing recovery like everyone else and if some want to leave or change well let them. I hope you keep in touch and pm me here for my information if you are interested. I truly feel like family here after a few years of hanging around MIP and whenever a long timer leaves I always wonder and send prayers, love and support their way when they cross my mind. I hope we don't lose you and whatever behind the scenes that has you riled up works itself out. I wish you didn't take it so personally, but it will make you stronger in the end working through this. We are to be held to the traditions and steps here and I am sure the people will do the right thing for all in the end. Keep in touch.
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
Grateful, this is so disturbing to me. I don't know what has been going on as I have been away for several days, but this is disturbing to me. I am sincerely thankful to you for all of your replies to my posts. Your responses have always been genuine and caring. I am so sorry this has happened. Because my face to face group only meets once a week, I found this board helped to fill the gap between my meetings. It will certainly be MIP's loss if you leave. I would ask you to please reconsider.
Take care of you.
it works if you work it.
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Look for the rainbow after the storm, and I'm sending you a double dose of HOPE. H-hold O-on P-pain E-ends
Gals: You know you are all making this very difficult for me. (Smile) It truly is a Tradition 1 & 9 matter for me. I just don't see that subgroups honor them and I know that people do get wounded when those groups are formed to the inclusion of some and the exclusion of others. It can start out so harmlessly and then not. I have no right to try to change anybody and what they choose to do or not do on this board. I'm not taking anything personally. I simply know my limits and what is harmful. It is human nature to form alliances. This I know. Yet, it is my understanding that Al-Anon points us to a higher principle that gives us all a seat at the table with the entire membership and that service groups and committees are formed to be directly responsible to those they serve. I know MIP isn't an official Al-Anon group and yet I do believe in our principles and ways of operating as a family affected by alcoholism. I'm not Mrs. Al-Anon. I'm still growing but I have to do so within some kind of framework where I know we're operating as a group openly and not splitting into loosely or not so loosely organized subgroups that the full group doesn't know about. As I said, there were two main groups that I saw split apart by alliances formed in the background. I've seen many more than that. I've also seen groups that flourish because they don't form subgroups and deal with things openly or not at all.
My fear in sharing all this is that I'll sound all righteous and stuff. I'm not that. I'm growing just like everyone else. To my knowledge there are no supports in place at MIP to discourage the unknown subgroups and alliances from forming and I don't want to push my will on the board either. It will only create resentments and everybody has the right to do whatever they choose on this board. This is just me knowing my need and being honest with you all hard as it is to let go.
I said about an hour ago, I wouldn't be checking in again. This time, I mean it. Much, much affection and tremendous gratitude for you all.
I did not respond to the group message because I was uncomfortable about it. Please know, everyone who is concerned, that it was created in an effort to help someone on our boards. There was nothing negative about it. I think the intention of the message began in good faith. I chose to observe. I have too much going on in my life and didn't feel comfortable stepping in and offering help or support otherwise.
As to Grateful: I am very sad that this would lead you to leave our boards. However, I understand that you need to be true to yourself. Sending you lots of love and support tonight and always.
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
I believe that what we say and do on the Board ,just as in Face to face meetings should be governed by alanon Traditions. When the face to face meeting is over each member is free to associate with those they choose and help each other as best they can --The message board is no different.
I did not respond to the group message because I was uncomfortable about it. Please know, everyone who is concerned, that it was created in an effort to help someone on our boards. There was nothing negative about it. I think the intention of the message began in good faith. I chose to observe. I have too much going on in my life and didn't feel comfortable stepping in and offering help or support otherwise.
Well, Andromeda, you rated....i did not.....i would not have responded bc i , too would have felt "icky" about it , but i was excluded from the "private group" whether one is included or excluded, it impacts the group as a whole....I, too, feel that trads 1, 9 were violated also trad #2.....I could take it all personally, my being excluded, but i thought about it and figured that had i been INcluded, I would not have been comfortable with the sub group conversation.......
I am kinda glad i am busy with income tax and I have a small yahoo email recovery group with some oldies from an OLD coda group i was moderator in.....I am going to be limited on my "board time" b/c of income tax , however, i am going to check my motives, my feelings, my HP on this and i am reading a book on 12 steps for self-parenting and i thought i would do a book review on my little yahoo email group......i will work my recovery in "condensed" form b/c I HAVE to study for income tax season......
I have to say as one who is not "part of the gang" I felt "excluded" or "left out" for a while and that was my fate with my FOO.....left out...excluded......it brought back old feelings......however, I worked my program on this, spoke to my sponsor about this and got her take and I feel NOT less then but equal in ANY setting....other people's actions are their issues, not mine... and I will work my program IN tandem with the 12 steps AND traditions....and of course all the other parts of recovery.....JUST saying.....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Catherine. You might not sign on but I bet you .. will not be able to resist reading. I know I've been there so I will give you a shout once in a while. Hugs
-- Edited by Cathyinaz on Thursday 8th of January 2015 12:52:01 AM
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Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
Im sad about this grateful. I understand where your coming from and how you feel.if your decision is to leave the forum because of this then i will respect your decision but its happened, youve expressed yourself and now i for one see what you mean about group disharmony and the traditions. i also understand about enabling, and codependancy having vast experience of both. It can creep in again.
I dont understand why you would have to leave. Its like a group consciousness meeting, say what you mean, mean what you say but also give the group a chance to listen and learn from your experience. The group as a whole will get things wrong from time to time just the same as people will get it wrong regularly, well if they are like me they will. This might be my own attachment thing surfacing, i hate the thought of someone leaving, especially someone whos been there for me and others the way you have been.x
As with so much else in my world I know not what has happened my friend, but I do know that I will miss your presence here greatly.
Thank you so very very much for your kindness and wisdom and perspective - you are an important teacher and playmate in my life.
What can I say? I would love you to stay and take the best bits and leave the rest. From the relatively short time that I have been with MIP I've noticed that from time to time drama unfolds. I have also noticed that from time to time this place is a soothing balm for some very real pain. You matter to me. And I am grateful.
This bites. I've no knowledge of super clique and for that I'm grateful. I left high school at 13 along with that juvenile behaviour. I don't think its cool to discuss other members. Like they say in AA NONE of us came here on a winning streak. So disappointing. Miss you already Catherine.
If it's referring to that one group PM that Paula talked about, which is also the only one I've been privy to, I think it was well intentioned and the person that sent it didn't know anything about it being wrong. Nothing was said that wouldn't be said and hasn't been said to people themselves. I think it was the product of actually this board being a caring place as it was kind of a "what more can we do for this person" type of thing though I agree we can't have that here if we want to try and stick to traditions. Making it into something too big will shame the person that sent it and probably make them want to leave the board and also have everyone paranoid. If it is all about that 1 group message....I'd say leave it alone but I'm glad it was brought up on the open forum.
I don't care about any of this as far as what people are doing, but I will put another spin on it,I came here a few months ago desperate for help,in a deep depression,very deep.I had no transportation at the time and was very isolated.I don't know what I would have done without this board period.You all have helped me and I love you guys,don't let drama mess it up.Keep up the good work,I am off to school now!!
Well thanks for clarifying. Shame is a touchy subject for most of us. It makes me personally and automatically feel shamed, such is the effect of Machiavellian machinations well intentioned or not. How many codas do " nice" as a form of manipulation? While I'd never bully someone out of here or anywhere, I retain my original view, that it isn't OK to discuss other members in secret, guised as kindness or not.
I agree Aquamom. I regret not addressing the codependent nature of the post right away; I saw it and chose to be indirect until I saw momentum building. I know better, so I will do better. There is good that will come out of this conversation, of that I am sure.
As I stated above: The private message was a member reaching out to a handful of other members in an effort to help someone else on the boards. I'm sure this person did not want to embarrass the other with attention grabbing or making them feel guilty or shameful for getting attention. The whole thing was meant to help another but maybe it just was gone about in the wrong way. I think we can let this issue drop because these boards are more important to many people than to have folks obsessing over being a part of or excluded from a clique. That was not the intention, I'm sure.
Since these boards are public, there are things that need to be said privately. I do agree, though, that the private GROUP message was gone about in the wrong way and that is why I did not participate but I don't see it as a clique or as a purposely hurtful to others members. Things can get out of hand here on MIP just as they can at the work place or amongst families. I am asking everyone here to please give this one up to HP and let's keep the boards a great place for newcomers especially, people who need the hand of Al Anon members. Thx
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Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be!
"what more can we do for this person" type of thing though I agree we can't have that here if we want to try and stick to traditions.
my take???? keep the focus on ourselves, our inventory and LOVINGLY detach from the "what more can I do for a person" sounds CODA...sounds like "fix it- control" how about letting one fall and learn their lessons......we can turn this into "what more can I do for the alcoholic" all through the board, practicing alanon, we CANT do anymore then to esh, support, give love AND detach--let them learn the hard way if they have to, but hopefully they LEARN....grateful said that really respecting another (paraphrasing) is to let them fall, fail, do what they gotta do to bring out their own surrender to the program and to WANT to reach out/work the program......."what more can we do???" sounds very CODA, interferring, I think esh/love/encouragement is what alanon teaches....we are NOT the saviours of our fellows.....we can NOT fix others and holding them off the abyss they MAY, SADLY have to fall into only hurts them in the end....it is telling them that they are not capable and "well we gotta jump in and rescue" I tried that w/both my exes and i see the damage i may have done.....the most merciful thing we can do is detach...let go....but out...back off....let the other LEARN or keep suffering until they are SICK and tired of being SICK and tired......
ESH is essential....enabling is crippling the other
I am not happy with what has been going on....the slogans "keep the focus on me" and "live and let live" "what is out of my hula hoop is not in my realm of control" "LET GO---LET HIGHER POWER" all these slogans come to mind and i sense that some folks over looked these....instead of fretting about another's program or lack thereoff, we take the focus off ourselves.....I am too much in need of my own help, and i am too much in need of following the healthy traditions, steps, precepts, slogans....
yea, i want to support, give esh and encourage, but when i see posts above, referring to "what more can we do for xxxxxxx" that sends an unhealthy message to me that esh and love and support is not enough????? My A brother falls on his ass all the time.....I LET HIM....I LET HIM reap his not working AA.....I LET him learn his lessons.......if he chooses the "hard pain" of denial path??? so be it.....I pray, however that he chooses the "SOFT pain of surrender to the program" he knows AA hes been there....He , so far, doesn't need it anymore.....He chooses to repeat the same ole patterns, then cry to me and to his alanon friend with whom i am friends with and he cries the same ole war stories, looking for sympathy.....I love him, but the disease taught him to be a very very craft manipulator.....welll?? i was the same manipulator in my CODA....so he can't fool me....I see it....our friend sees it....the best hope for us??? LET HIM FALL HARD....maybe that will drive him back to AA
JUST saying....
I am taking a step back to look at this...and see how i feel about MY tenure here.........if i post a controversial post like i have been known to do....will a private caucus re: my inventory crop up behind my back????? yes, in meetings i would see people splinter off and chat and share commonalities....but i never heard of them splintering off to A--work another inventory B---try to be their higher power re: fix and repair job on member........
this totally reminds me of my FOO.......JUST SAYING
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I might be wrong but im sure one of the traditions says we can do what what we like for others just not in the name of alanon. Doesnt it say something like how an individual chooses to assist is up to them. Im not sure but i know ive heard it somewhere in one of the traditions.
I got one of the group emails and it was sent by a really nice caring woman who had the kindest of intentions. Maybe not the healthiest or most alanonish if you look at the nitty gritty but i dont think she meant to hurt or exclude anyone . It wasnt some seedy conspiracy, two faced thing. It probably wasnt alanon and the good thing is that we all learned a little from it and how group mails can be the wrong thing but how do we know until its done? It wasnt taking anyones inventory. It was a suggestion to help, like one would in ordinary everyday conversation. I took my alanon hat off and made a decision to not bring up the rights or wrongs. I cant control others, so i chose to give it up and leave it. I agree with andromeda that we should probably move on especially since our grateful is back on board, but i also welcome disagreements, for me, sometimes i learn deeper.
It was a suggestion to help, like one would in ordinary everyday conversation. I took my alanon hat off and made a decision to not bring up the rights or wrongs. I cant control others, so i chose to give it up and leave it. I agree with andromeda that we should probably move on especially since our grateful is back on board, but i also welcome disagreements, for me, sometimes i learn deeper.
well, i see what you are saying, its just WHEN do we detach with love from another and let THEM walk and stumble, perhaps but letting them work their own problems out, as we do our A's and our NA's, so they will ON THEIR OWN CHOICE...surrender to the program......when does "help" become enabling??? when does concern become trying to , yes, good intentions, but when does concern become attempts to interfer in another's lessons and being coda in that we just GOTTA rescue?????
Maybe i am not saying this right, i hope this post made sense.....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
But i am working on enabling, it was one of my biggest obstacles so the chances are im probably going to enable from time to time. I will own up to it. Im sick too, enabling is one of my symptoms. I think ive got it kicked and then i go do it again. The difference is i see it now, maybe not a t first but i usually get there. I just wanted to let you know that it wasnt an inventory type thing or a two faced type thing. This is a safe place for all of us to play out our sickness most of the time. I play out my sickness quite regularly and i dont really care much what anyone says to be honest or if i care its not for long, that may be another part of my sickness, but i enjoy not caring having overly cared my whole life. Im also open to being wrong and would put my hands up to my own wrong doing most of the time. This whole situation has not been the best alanon behaviour but it honestly wasnt malicious either honestly.x
But i am working on enabling, it was one of my biggest obstacles so the chances are im probably going to enable from time to time. I will own up to it. Im sick too, enabling is one of my symptoms. I think ive got it kicked and then i go do it again. The difference is i see it now, maybe not a t first but i usually get there. I just wanted to let you know that it wasnt an inventory type thing or a two faced type thing. This is a safe place for all of us to play out our sickness most of the time. I play out my sickness quite regularly and i dont really care much what anyone says to be honest or if i care its not for long, that may be another part of my sickness, but i enjoy not caring having overly cared my whole life. Im also open to being wrong and would put my hands up to my own wrong doing most of the time. This whole situation has not been the best alanon behaviour but it honestly wasnt malicious either honestly.x
el-cee, you and I are GOOD....I was just stating MY experience and ESH on this......i am working on NOT enabling but to let the other sink or swim as they desire.....its not my area of control, I , too, am thinking maybe it was not sneaky, malicious, but writing to some and excluding others was not a good thing to me....yea, people splinter off in meets, etc., but its mostly one asking another their ESH on something or maybe two or more are into playing bingo after the meets.....just saying.........my FOO was real good on the "in crowd" and the "out crowd" NOT healthy, but forgivable b/c they know not what they do.....I am not pissed...I forgive....but i am also gonna do what is in my best interest
i told sponsor i would wait and see....see if i even fit in here.....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I totally understand neshema, its all about perspectives i think. You are right on so much you say and i dont think this will happen again, well not by this generation lol, its been brought out into the open as these things should. This forum, in my experience cant ever offer a smooth ride 100 percent of the time. It gets bumpy for all of us and because its an online thing we dont think we will be missed much and we think we will just check out, well i do, every month or so im like, right thats it, im not going on there again, ive told people that here too on a good few occasions . I suppose we always come back because weve got connections with people. I wouldnt like to see you leave over this. Of course were good, disagreeing still equals good in my book.
