How Do You Trust God When He Has Put An Alcoholic in Your Life? - Al-Anon Family Group

ohno · Senior Member

How Do You Trust God When He Has Put An Alcoholic in Your Life?

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

How do you trust God when there are children starving in Africa, when there are rapists and murderers out there? Those things don't happen just to thwart me and alcoholism doesn't either. It's not personal. We are all given challenges and problems to cope with in life. God gives us the strength and faith to manage the issues as best we can.

Also, I don't second guess God as much lately. For all you know God did everything to prevent alcoholism from developing in your loved one and your loved one willfully progressed into alcoholism anyhow because THEY aren't aligning themselves with God's will for them. That was the case for me and my alcoholism. I had early signs from the get go that I shouldn't be drinking like I was. I chose to ignore them.

ohno · Senior Member

I just don't understand how you can then derive any comfort from putting trust in God when the effects to us are damaging.

I was asking when you pray or do a Third Step, what are you actually trusting God to do? Specifically? I know it is "God's will," but can you give some examples of God's will and how it helped you to know it or how it helped you to cope?

Thank you.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

There was a time when I thought God was a judge and learned that image was just an image by a new experience that changed my perspective. Later, I thought God was a magician who could turn black into white or white into black with a wave of God's magic wand and the same thing happened. Then, I thought God would do for me what I couldn't do for myself but nothing happened. It didn't happen because I wasn't doing all I could do and again my concept of God as well as my perspective changed. At this time in my life, I know that my HP can be trusted to reveal more of God's Self when I'm ready to make a change in my own thinking and perspective. I don't have the mind of God. I am not privy to all that my HP is doing or will do. I do know that my very existence is supported with air, water, food, blood coursing through my veins, heart pumping and my brain working - none of which I did anything to deserve or earn - and yet here I sit at 66 typing away in the comfort of my own home to you. I trust that that HP I can't define wants me here and will do all S/He can to help me live - sometimes even when I don't want to live anymore when life comes along and hits me with a hardball and the pain is more than I think I can bear and yet somehow I am carried through those times, too, and I recognize how good life is and how good my HP is to me - as flawed and ordinary as I am. I trust my HP because I exist and left to my own devices - that never would have happened.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't experience trust in God to be damaging. I don't expect god to fix everything, only to help give me the strength, courage, and wisdom to deal with what is. I has helped me cope because it helps me do what I need to in a given day..to just do the next right thing and leave the results up to god.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Not sure this is anything close to what you are looking for but - before the alcoholic came into my life I was asking God to take the want to be with someone, away; Let me find happiness being alone. Now on the other side of madness, I no longer have the loneliness driven need to be with someone, anyone, regardless of the consequences. I firmly believe that I would not have gotten the message from Him if the delivery had been easy, if I hadn't had to fight my way back.

I perceive God as my ultimate Father. And, as a parent myself, I know that I can want my children to lead their lives a certain way, but I cannot, and would not, force them to do MY will. I can only counsel them as to what I think is the right path, the choice is theirs. When my children make bad choices, they hopefully learn the lessons that come from it.

I believe the same is true for God and me, His child. I am sure the message was there to be happy with the life I had but I wasn't hearing it, I was ignoring it and I made a bad choice and therefore suffered the consequences.

The comfort I get from my faith in God as my Higher Power is in the feeling of being welcomed back into His arms, loving me the way I would lovingly embrace my children whether they'd done as I wanted, or not.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I dont see alcoholism as the worst thing in the world anymore, i can even be grateful for it leading me to alanon. Ive got spirituality in my life now. Im not religious, i dont belong to any church so the god of my understanding might be different to other peoples or maybe similar to others. To me gods will is me just doing the next right thing, concentra4ing on the task it hand, working to improve my life and enjoy my days. Struggles and difficulties that alcoholism brings might be as much a gift from god as all the good times. Your pain right now might be part of getting to another place where you are happy and content or maybe happiness is in this day if you look for it despite alcoholism. When i trust my higher power i am letting go of trying to control and fix, im accepting that everything is happening for the greater good, too big for me to see.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Ps, i enjoy your questions ohno, they are right up my street.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't know if this will help you or not but when my son was purposely hit by a teenage driver and ended up in the hospital in a coma, I underwent a trial of faith. I had not wanted my son to go to his Dad's in the first place but let him go after talking with my Dad, a very good therapist who worked as a supervisor with CPS and started a child trauma center on campus here in our city, and my spiritual director who was himself the father of many, hard to place adopted kids and foster care kids. All 3 told me the same thing: That I had done my part. It was time to let him go. I prayed about it all, too, and finally agreed to do what I hated doing and yet knew these men knew what they were talking about and that I was being a Mom torn apart by letting my son go and knowing that if I didn't - like my Dad said - he would have hitched it to live with his Dad. I sensed God promised me that he would take care of my son and that was the underlying reason I agreed although looking back, it was really out of my hands anyway. My son would have hitched it. He was that determined to live with his Dad because as he stated later: He didn't want to live in a house where rules, structure, and consequences were a part of the deal for him. (paraphrase)

I can remember mentally saying to God in the solitude of a sanctuary: "You promised me You would take care of him and this is the way You do it? I wasn't mincing words. I didn't care if I was addressing God. I just knew that I was angry and that I felt betrayed and such sorrow for my beloved son. The response that I received that day was something on this order: "I can save your son's soul. I cannot save him from physical injury or harm." I could have asked "Why" or spouted some more words that wouldn't have changed a thing for my son or for me. I had to learn to trust that although God might not save any of my kids from pain or suffering, S/He would protect that part of them that will never die.

I had to learn how to live life on life's terms or I would have committed suicide - so caught up in my own sorrow and anger at God not being who I wanted God to be for me and for my son. I had a daughter who still needed a Mom and I had a brain damaged son I had to look out for the best that I could do it at the time. I also had to let God carry me through that time without me asking any more questions of God because I knew there would be no more answers but there would be help for me to carry on.

I want to add that I don't believe it was God's will or doing that my son was hit by a teenage driver. My son wanted to live with his Dad. He also chose to stand up in his cousin's car the night he was hit and throw a Big Gulp at a teenage driver who had cut them off. He had no idea that down would come tinted windows and out would come baseball bats. He didn't know that when he and his cousin arrived at my son's friends' house, that he would be the only one of the circle of guys who wasn't fast enough to get out of the street before the driver downshifted and aimed his truck at the circle. He didn't know all that would come after that for him. And I believe at this point in my life that God wept in me right along with me. My son and that boy had freewill. If my HP and theirs was a puppeteer, maybe my son would have been spared. I know God is not a puppeteer and loves me and my son enough to let us make our own choices, suffer the consequences of them, and pick us up to limp on through life the best we can.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 4th of January 2015 01:04:06 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 4th of January 2015 01:14:18 PM

mjferg · Senior Member

I understand what you are saying,as I have asked why me a lot.I try not to analyze too much as it ends up driving me crazy and it doesn't solve anything.With life there is also pain,that is just the way it is.I have to be careful that I don't see myself any worse off than other people.I had an experience on Christmas Eve,I was feeling sorry for myself because I was alone,asking why me God,then I thought about a mother sitting by her sick child's hospital bed and he won't be coming home for Christmas,I am sure she would trade places with me.It helps me to keep things in perspective.

ohno · Senior Member

You people are very strong. Your stories are heartbreaking and awe-inspiring, all at the same time.

I don't understand God - as I guess is as it should be - but you have to have some kind of working concept . . . Prayer puts me in a higher plane of consciousness and that helps me, so I do "believe" in that. Everything else is up for grabs at the moment.

I guess, at base, I disagree with "the plan" that humans should have to endure suffering as a vehicle for growth.

I believe in reincarnation and I believe we have amnesia as to why we have chosen a human incarnation - I just can't fathom why "I" would have chosen any of this. It seems very counter-intuitive - especially in this program where serenity is so valued - I would think I would have much more serenity anywhere but here.

I wish I could come up with a worldview that would work for me - so far it is has been elusive - I have been working on it for a very long time. I am happy for those of you who actually have "knowing" and can live your lives with some kind of a game plan that makes sense to you. I feel like a misfit in that way.

-- Edited by ohno on Sunday 4th of January 2015 01:15:10 PM

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Ekhart Tolle has been a big help to me when it comes to the subject of suffering. Mother Teresa has said that it is meant to make us "Christlike." Byron Katie and our program also suggests that pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't think that you are a misfit in any way Ohno

When I was young there used to be a comedian in the UK who would finish his show by saying 'and may your god go with you'. I liked the acceptance of that word 'your' and I like your description of a 'higher consciousness' as well.

When I'm present in my life I can learn from good and bad and one of the things that I like about alanon is that it is reminding me to experience the good in a conscious way and to learn just as much from that as well as feeling that I need to learn from the negative stuff (which kind of comes naturally to me!!). Not knowing is also a learning curve for me, in fact i find it quite difficult to not know the answer to something. I have glimpses of calm acceptance as I get better at letting go of that need to be in the know. This is such a personal question for me so my apologies if this does not make much sense - but you kind of got me thinking!!

mjferg · Senior Member

If I think too much about others it can ruin my serenity.I have two grandchildren who I just found out are getting high at home now,so I could let that news throw me into chaos,but what I am doing instead is going to meetings,talking to my therapist and turning it over.I love them from a distance, but I am not getting sucked into the drama as I have in the past.I apply the steps and I realize that there isn't anything I can do about it.I can have doomsday thinking, but I am choosing to think maybe it is a phase.I don't know what the future holds so if I sit and obsess and worry I will lose my serenity.I choose not to do that.I choose to have faith in this program because I see the results, a couple of months ago I was very sick emotionally and now I am much better.

Jill · ~*Service Worker*~

Good topic. Thanks

I realized in hindsight that for me practicing gratitude moved out my thoughts of "why me?" and "why not me?". I 'm not sure anything else changed - the circumstances and environment I was in were the same. From internalizing gratitude, I came to deeply know I was worthy of a better life than I was experiencing. With that knowing, I was able to change the things I could.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

i heard a saying once, where a lot of folks when they pray, they are kinda telling god/hp/creator what to do...like "pray aright" i'm not sure i am getting this absolutely correct so i'll just give my esh about god

I was brought up in the worst case scenario of homes a child could be subjected to, therefore, i would pray to get me out of here, to kill him, stop him, get me OUTTA HERE.....none of my prayers were answered

thus the agnosticism i struggle with each day, nearly.....the starving children, the children who are trafficked for sex purposes....kids being fed heroine and meth by pimps so they will work the streets to feed their habits and to pay their pimps.....the horrendous suffering in this world, it is easy NOT to trust in any god

but i do believe there is a part of the universal creation within me......i only look to that part that is WITHIN me........the creator is busy....busy with the big/corporate picture....not involved in the individual so much, however there is a part of it within me....so if i want to pray, i go to that part that is within me......

also, creator does not interfere in our choices......did he/she force me to marry two alcoholics???? NO!! I chose them....my sicko childhood taught me i was only worthy of crumbs and more unacceptable and unavailable people.......

things/situations/people are put in our lives all the time, but whose choice was it to accept that person/situation/thing in our life???? we are here under choice and free will...2 things creator does not interfere in b/c if she/he did, it would not be very educating for us....so we reap what we sow, essentially

the Buddha left his rich home life and even a beautiful wife and son to go out in the world b/c he wanted to know "why" all the suffering and he learned that when he got into the quiet, meditated and centered w/his HP within him, he felt total peace, guidance, wisdom from within

how many times did i see red flags in a person, but accepted them anyway...AND if i made a mistake and saw MORE red flags, why didn't i move on??? why did i stay in misery???? it was my CHOICE

i do believe creator made us in love but i also believe that creator is only involved in our lives to the exttent of offering us wisdom, guidance, direction, et al

we have the tools within to make good lives for ourselves....many times we don't use those tools....many times we work from our heads and not from our higher parent within us.....

when i get still, when i detach/let go, and just listen, wait, someone or something will happen to help me out of what dilemma i am in

as to putting an A into our lives??? it was our choice to let him/her in our lives and we reaped the karma for that...it was our lesson that WE chose by embracing a sick person

I don't think too much suffering makes us Christlike...too much of the darkness made me agnostic.....I am not agnostic about the existence of god/creator, i am agnostic about his/her involvement in my life, but I KNOW..don't know why, but i KNOW that part of the universal creator is within me and when i am quiet, willng to be honest, open, willing i see it in action.....maybe b/c i am really (hate the word surrender) being open to better things/thoughts in my life......

as humans we put human attributes on hp and i think that is where a lot of us get tied up......its just energy of love/peace/abundance/health/self expression....

also the dark entities get NO blame for any of this, poor HP catches all the blame when there ARE for sure in MY opinion, dark spirits who will do anything they can to screw things up for us....the suffering, poverty, hate, intolerence, ego, lust for money, lust for power, that is MAN made...everything evil that has happened to me was from MAN......humans allow dark entities to govern them, they give in to ego, lust, greed, power, idol worship, you name it humans can't get enough of money and power and the greed is off the charts.....that tells me man has divorced himself from creator and embraced all the wordly stuff where the darkness resides...

oh yea, i want enough $$ to meet my needs and some of my wants, but I am not , I hope, greedy.....comfortable is good enough for me.....we indians lived by the philosophy "take what you NEED and give what you CAN" i want my needs met...i deserve to have my needs met, and i am doing all i can to have that, but excessive wealth?? not interested...not interested in fighting to keep all that excess.....excessive anything is not good and that is where man finds himself in trouble

ALL of my pain was caused by MAN not god.....MAN needing to satisfy this dark thing within himself is what hurt me and drove me here......

I chose the light for me.....also we natives believe in that there are two wolves inside of us.......1 good.....1 bad.....so which wolf do we feed???? it is our choice...our freedom to choose under universal law.....i choose to feed the good one and to starve out the bad one by being loving, positive and healing....its hard..i am tempted every day, but i work my program and get centered in me to fight it off...

the light is more powerful than the darkness but the darkness is not weak by any means, we are faced with it in some way every day and we have a choice....feed it or starve it......

when i do the 3rd step, i am not really asking anything.....I ask, maybe for courage to change the things i can and the peace to accept stuff i can't change.....step 3 to me is just saying "i did my all, now do what you gotta do" and i walk away.......if i know i have done all i can, i walk away and toss it off me and i quit obsessing/thinking about it.....i LET IT GO......let the universal take care of it,

by detaching, i am freeing up the good energy to work on the problem/person/place/thing i will either be given the answer to do a different thing to fix it/ or by letting go it may disolve by its self or something else will happen......

we are here to walk our paths, learn our lessons, travel our road but its all choice and freewill......and i CHOOSE healthy people in my life now....I CHOOSE to let go the sick abusive/toxic/emotionally unavailable people......my choice....my choice to take care of me..be responsible for me....let others walk their paths and if they don't match up with me??? I let go....move on.......

your post title is interesting.....i dont' think god put an alcoholic in your life, it just happend, maybe to teach you something??? something you drew into your life as i drew into my life for to learn???? as to staying with the 2 legged drinking lesson??? that was MY choice to stay as long as i did....it was also MY choice to let them go and to move on...cut my losses and move on.....I know for me, I "drew" them into my life b/c i had unfinished business w/my past that i had to work steps 4,5,6,7,8,9 on........

why was i drawing the same old sick people in my life??? b/c i had to learn the lesson of taking care of me, learning to detach from others problems, i had to learn that i can only guide my own ship and not another's, i had to learn that i was lovable, acceptable, and deserving of better/ healthier people...as long as i had low self esteem, i would attract to me and embrace in my life, unacceptable and toxic people......

i heard we draw to us by our energy, our thoughts/deeds, people, places, things that will help us move forward in our growth.....we get the same lessons over and over till we "get it" and then we can move onto a higher awarenss, higher energy.....but its up to US and our CHOICES..

i am in recovery to get better...healthier....to create better energy so i draw better energy to me.....that is why i am here...to discover self and to work through the pain of my past so i can LET IT GO and MOVE ON and i am doing that.....lots of pain, so i had lots to work through....but i refused to let it beat me......i work my program to make better energy within me so i can draw to me better energy.

Just my take.....please use what you can and discard the rest..........btw...GREAT post and question......I SO relate to how you feel......many people don't embrace any god b/c of all the suffering and pain caused by man and his love for money and power and physical gratifications.......god steps aside to let man rule his own journey and man preys upon his own kind to get his gratification.......karma is a bitch....what goes around comes around....i see more people turnign to substance abuse b/c of the economy being so bad, more homeless now then during depression, more crimes against other humans and the vulnerable ones, but it isn't god doing all this evil.....it is MAN!!!! and this will be "chastized" one day...don't know when, but when we do things to others, we set in motion energy and unless we stop and make amends, the karma we make for ourselves is ten times what we do to another....so i just try to make good energy...working my program is good energy.....helping those I am safe and able to help is good energy.....believing that love over powers fear.....doing what is right.....being a vessel of peace and love is good energy....I am just depositing in my "good energy bank" the best I can and so far i am OK...my needs are sorta met...yea, some stuff i still need, but TODAY, I am ok........I just keep trying to put out good energy...even if it is only to read and meditate on my recovery literature, or coming her and esh'ing my fellow recovery mates, or just to take care of me and so i can be stronger to help where I can

just my take again....use what you can and throw away the rest....

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Ohno We seem to keep going around and around on this topic Before alanon my understanding of God and spirituality were quite simple. If I was good, played by the rules , prayed then God would do any thing I asked. I was completely disappointed with this understanding and my relationship with the God of my understanding disappeared. I also thought I could avoid all the bad things in life by being cleaver and out thinking everyone. Not so!!! Life is such that everyone has difficulties so that I can learn by experience and develop compassion and empathy for others. I cannot avoid the hard times no matter how much I prayed or talked to God. The best I could do was to learn how to handle life with courage, serenity and wisdom That is what I expect from God the courage, serenity and wisdom to live life on life's term and that is enough

In order to reach this spot I had to discard all my former beliefs about the world and become teachable with an open mind that works.

ohno · Senior Member

Hotrod: I enjoy hearing your experience - when you say "we seem to be going around and around on this topic," not sure if you are chastising me - if my posts are irritating to you, please feel free to ignore them. I'm doing the best I can. Thanks

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey Ohno

I have struggled with this issue forever it seems....why so much suffering, hardship, etc....but ya know?? as you get into the program, groove into it, maybe the program can be HP for you, it has been for me a LOT...in my times of doubt, anger, the "WHY's" times i use the program as my higher power......

i notice that the darkness uses man to impact man and so does creator....creator uses the vessels of love and peace and healing and helping.....so man is kinda ground zero to me......

so..if that is true...if what i am saying is kinda "on it" then why not just gravitate to the vessels of love and not hate...the vessels of peace not war, etc.????

through alanon, i am doing that.....I am distancing myself or out and out cutting out the ones who want to serve the dark energy.....i am welcoming the ones who want to be vessels of love and peace like I am....

life has improved b/c of this.....also detaching where i have no power.....letting go of others problems if i can't help them help themselves, then I back off...let the karma go where it is to go......

b/c i went through soo much in one lifetime, i will perhaps have my doubts and issues and questions for the rest of my life.....i don't feel so bad b/c our loving heroine mother Theresa had her doubts and questions......look at king David in his psalms in the bible.....( I am not a bible believer but i adore the psalms) ..look at the questions David had

its OK to doubt...its OK to question....I think creator would rather my being in its face questioning, then to turn away from and ignore/abandon....

I , like i said earlier, used this program and its principles and its love and healing atmosphere as my higher power.....when i am in a bad state, i go right into the program as my god...nothing wrong with that.....this program and my getting into it is the first time i experienced the good side of any creator/hp/ whatever you call it......

when i am focused on love, peace, gratitude, open mindedness, willingness to change what i can change, being reachable and teachable, when i focus on these things, i experience the universal power......

i think of me as a garden hose.....when i am negative and egotistic/close minded, I have stepped on my spiritual garden hose....when i take my foot off and let things flow as they must, i see the universal energy of love and positiveness and good things a lot more

Just saying....You are NOT alone in this.......maybe if you relax and quit fighting it and just "let go" or embrace program as your HP, it might mesh a bit better...i find that was true for me....i just quit fighting it....like "ok, what can i do to take care of me, and let the rest of it go" i just say to creator, when iam stuck, powerless, et al, "do what you gotta do, i am disconnecting from xxxxx or ccccccccc" it seems to help

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I trust completely that God knew what she/he was doing when any experiences are put in my life. I have faith that ALL that happens is for a greater purpose that I don't see. It is not within my vision and may never be within my vision, although I can see why an alcoholics were put into my life. For starters, I needed to learn compassion, unconditional love, non butinsky behaviors and non judging, which included not judging God. My life works best with the faith that all is as it should be.

I just learned that my youngest daughter has, once again, taken up with a man that is abusive to her. She is 25 and has been off and on with him since she was maybe 16. It hurts me deeply and I have visions of searching for some Italian relatives that might be "in the family business", yet, I know that this is the road she has chosen to learn whatever it is she needs to learn. I will watch carefully, say what I say without saying it mean, build her up, affirm her, be available to her when she needs outlets for her shame and be mindful of boundaries for me that need to be protected. Staying out of jail is probably in God's plan for me....

Katrina324 · Veteran Member

Dear Ohno,
I've felt the same way recently, angry, wondering why on earth God would put such a person in my life, when God knows I don't drink, and that I know nothing about alcoholism. I've come to realize in a short time that it wasn't God's fault, or mine. We all have free will, and addiction is a terrible thing, it turns people into something that they ordinarily would not be and I know a lot of what my boyfriend has done is the Vodka speaking. Just the same, I had to break off the relationship to spare myself from an uncertain future.

I have to look at my boyfriend with compassion, but that doesn't mean I have to go to bed with him or take him out on a date. I want a man who takes good care of himself. Sure I might lose someone to a car accident, or some unforeseen event, but at least I will know that he isn't pushing death along by intoxicating himself. And I have to trust that God is leading me to the right man, but perhaps I haven't been paying attention and going in what I believe to be the right direction. For now, I'm going with the flow, and enjoying my life as it is.

Kat

Katrina324 · Veteran Member

Paula,

I have wondered that also, did God put my boyfriend in my life to learn compassion and how to love unconditionally? If so, I have struggled with whether or not I am supposed to stay in the relationship and be supportive and help him. I was all for that until he drank to the point of oblivion on Christmas Day, after he told me he gave up drinking for good (I had found him passed out twice in November). Then his family told me he had been lying the whole time I dated him and drinking the whole time. He is 60 and has drank heavily for most of his life, of which I did not know. That was when I ended it. I'm doing okay but still having down days where I get the urge to run over to his house and try to help him. (the nurse in me, ha ha)

-- Edited by Katrina324 on Sunday 4th of January 2015 04:23:17 PM

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Please don't feel chastised by me. I do like that you are direct in your questions even though some are controversial. It comes from what you are honestly wrestling with. It is all good ohno.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

((((((((((((((((((((((((((Paula)))))))))))))))))) I absolutely LOVED your post.....such dignity, truth and it was funny in areas too........LOVED it....I always walk away smarter and more into reality when I read you xoxo

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Ditto, Neshema, Paula.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Katrina324 wrote:

I have to look at my boyfriend with compassion, but that doesn't mean I have to go to bed with him or take him out on a date. I want a man who takes good care of himself. Sure I might lose someone to a car accident, or some unforeseen event, but at least I will know that he isn't pushing death along by intoxicating himself. And I have to trust that God is leading me to the right man, but perhaps I haven't been paying attention and going in what I believe to be the right direction. For now, I'm going with the flow, and enjoying my life as it is.

Kat

WOW, Katrina, you are new but WOW, what great posts you have offered up...so glad we were blessed w/you here......i so agree...compassion does not mean i take him back or let my abusive sister screw with my head anymore or letting my abusive daughter #2 mess with my emotions.....these folks were put in my life to remind me of "hey I gotta love and place ME and MY needs first so I am not useless to the ones who CAN benefit from my love and tough love wisdom" oh yea.....and i agree....life is a gamble, but we can "play percentage tennis" here.....I used to play tennis in leagues, tournaments and stuff and i was real good at one time....still could play if i found someone to play with and the young folks would pay me to teach them how to better their games, to win more and i always told them to "play the good percentages---play the higher percentage shots...like hitting the ball over the lowest part of the net----watching/paying attention to your opponent and attacking their weakest spots, etc" the point i am trying to make is yea, i had losses, i dint' have a good day....crap happens, but i won a huge majority of my contests b/c i played not fancy, not "cute" i played percentage tennis.....in life it is the same.......is a good percentage move dating an alcoholic??? of course not.....is it good percentage to let a drug addict loose in your home???? no...of course not.....there is pain we can avoid...there is a way to play the higher percentages...yea, playing it safe , one can go TOO far and not expeience real life, i am talking about good risk taking, though...like embarking on a relationship is a risk...but lets weigh those risks.....is he sober??? honest??? does he have a healthy love of self???? is he open to new ideas???? is he flying in the same direction as you re: goals, long term plans????? some stuff to ask...............Just saying and this has become a real exciting thread......

Katrina324 · Veteran Member

Thank you Neshema,

I don't feel very secure or strong just yet, I have my moments when my boyfriends sad eyes and tears come to mind, as well as the wonderful times we had together. It's then that I have to remind myself that it isn't normal to drink and drive (as his kids told me he does every night after work on the way home), nor is it normal to down a fifth of vodka on Christmas Day and then lie to your face while you smell it on his breath. I pray that he finds his way back, or he will join his lovely wife in heaven, she passed away at 49 from alcoholism.

I'm enjoying these posts also, I don't feel so alone and love all the different viewpoints.

Love and light to all of you, Kat

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Katrina, you are wise and loving. I am first compassionate to me and if that means leaving people to live their life as they choose, I let go. I no longer work harder in a relationship than the other person. If my husband were not actively working his recovery program, I would say bye bye. I can be loving, compassionate and non judging with the behavior of sharks, but I won't swim with them smile

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Dear ohno I am sorry if you found my comments disturbing. I must admit that I do try to live by Al-Anon principles and attempt to do the same in my shares . I lost a son to this disease and have shared my position regarding this topic on one of your previous postings. Since I have been in program for over 30 years I feel compelled to respond to your posts in order to clarify some issues.

Al-Anon is a Spiritual Program and is very clear about the concept of God and a Higher Power. It is suggested we can choose our own Higher Power , whatever works for us as long as we believe that there is a power greater than ourselves that we can trust.

No one is asking anyone to believe in a God or a Religion. Many people use the program, the principles, the philosophy and the tools, I know I did for the first few years. No one is pushing anyone to believe in a God or a religion. Another principle of the program is that we take what we like and leave the rest. Leaving the rest means you don't continually challenge it. We use whatever tools we can use and try to grow. I know many people in program that use the concept of Good Orderly Direction as their GOD
There are many tools that work such as slogans, meetings,literature and using them could help.

Helpangel · Senior Member

It took me a long time to figure out that God doesn't work that way. He does not cause pain, wrath, hurt, revenge, etc. Human beings do that to each other, human choose to live that way. All human'a have free will, God gave us that. What God does is help us have the courage and strength when we don't have enough. He will help us survive and thrive when we don't give up and believe in him. we can and do the work with his help. "God helps those who help themselves" Hope this helps- :) I am not a religious person and I think some people get to wrapped up in interpretations of the bible that they miss it but I believe in God and I think of myself as a spiritual person. It is important to have peace in life and I believe God wants that for everyone, that is how I think of it away :).

-- Edited by Helpangel on Sunday 4th of January 2015 06:59:18 PM

-- Edited by Helpangel on Sunday 4th of January 2015 07:03:18 PM

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

This is another good thread. Paula, stay out of jail please. Loved what you said about compassion and love. Who knew we could be grateful for alcoholism? Also grateful, thanms for sharing that time in your life. Your a strong woman, glad your here.x

ohno · Senior Member

I love hearing other people's interpretations and ways of working with ideas and material.

I am not sure WHAT my concept of God is at the moment. I do know that prayer puts me in a "sacred space," elevated vibration.

My main goal is to try to keep my vibration high.

I have not been feeling great - have had a lot of anxiety and fear - hopefully, it is passing through - it seems to be my biggest challenge.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

ohno wrote:

My main goal is to try to keep my vibration high.

I have not been feeling great - have had a lot of anxiety and fear - hopefully, it is passing through - it seems to be my biggest challenge.

good plan...keeping energy light, as i call it, and yea, been there re: the anxiety and fear...life is tough...brutal at times...even us alanons working our program, its a day to day "try and get through it" proposition.........keep on coming back and the god thingy is very very tough one for me.....used to be i hated/feared this god whom i though sat on this big high throne in "up there somewhere" with a big club in his gnarled hands, he had a white robe on and a long white beard...piercing eyes, and a glare on his face just waiting for me to mess up so he could take that club and make me a grease spot on the ground.....I really hated and feard this entity called god...

it took me YEARS to even consider any relationship w/god.....when i walked into my first alanon meet back in feb. 2012, if anyone had told me I had to believe in the "religion form" of god or any god for that manner, I would have walked.....i remember this very fat lady walked in with this flowered dress and she and i were the newbies....we exchanged nervous hellos to each other and she said "so i gotta have a higher power???? well, if that big chair over there can keep my fat ass off the ground , that chair will be MY higher power"

I put my hand to my mouth so as to not laugh, but it was this open, smiling yet nervous lady who kinda gave me an idea......I will let the program be my higher power and it was and still is to a degree my higher power.....i look within ...that is why its been such a struggle for me, i guess..b/c of the fragmentation that i suffered from the abuse...i am still not all integrated with my conscious self, my inner child, and my higher parent aka my soul and the part of the divine/universe that lays next to my higher parent.....but i do see progress

ohno · Senior Member

Progress is good. Thank you for sharing part of your story.

I am in a healing process myself.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

ohno wrote:
Progress is good. Thank you for sharing part of your story.

I am in a healing process myself.

any ole time AND i am glad you brought this up....its OK to ???? the god thingy.....especially when it seems the whole world is gone to crap....i just cling to my program and the healthiest people i can find and stay under the radar.....low profile....work my program....put out good energy....hope for the best, but sorta prepare for the worst.......thanks for the thread.....and you are NOT alone in this struggle......all we can do is day by day, try to be open and honest and willing....put out good energy and karma will take care of the rest..........IN SUPPORT

ohno · Senior Member

Thank you. Processing lots of old wounds/PTSD - my grandson's alcoholism has caused me to question many cherished values. I now know that nothing can really be counted on . . . not in this lifetime, anyway. I have to learn to be okay with the uncertainty of it all.

There is a lot of grief over alcoholism of a loved one. There is not a lot of space for grief in our culture. You are not supposed to be sad, disappointed, confused - at least not for too long. It makes others very uncomfortable.

I am okay with my own process. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but me.

If I question God, that is because I question God (and for the record, I said "He," but I have long not considered a patriarchal God - I just said that because that is the way that God is portrayed in the Alanon literature - just heard it tonight in the opening remarks - either steps or traditions.

I perceive "God" as an energy - beyond that, I have no idea . . . I don't have a problem with the issue of whether there IS a HP - I am just not sure how to trust "it" and was curious to hear how other people perceive it, work with it, and trust it.

Everything just seems so random, but the irony is that there is order in chaos theory, so I guess it's to be expected.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

ohno wrote:
I don't have a problem with the issue of whether there IS a HP - I am just not sure how to trust "it" and was curious to hear how other people perceive it, work with it, and trust it.

Everything just seems so random, but the irony is that there is order in chaos theory, so I guess it's to be expected.

I am just not sure how to trust "it"..........ME TOO.......this is how i feel., even now......not sure i can trust ANYthing outside of me, and even within, at times......my upbringing pretty much screwed up any chances of my trusting in anything but karma, the law of cause and affect......so don't feel like he lone ranger, i feel the same way, many times...when i am forced to "trust" b/c i have exhausted all my attempts, OR just was powerless from the git go, i detach...let go....toss it off me....visualize myself putting it (problem) into a big pink (dunno why bubble is always pink, my favorite color is pastel pink, so maaybe???) anyway, i send my bubble "up" and away from me w/problem inside of it and i just say "screw it, let the chips fall where they may"...i can't do anything so i am compelled to let it go....let the universe take care of it.....i burn my sage and talk to the angels and forces of light and i cast my burdens to that part of the universe that is within me.....i just keep casting the burden, off me and onto my "best within me" and let it go........i guess that is why i hate being powerless b/c trust will probably be a big issue for me....my greatest challenge......some stuff i will never heal from, i accept that...this may be one of those things.......if so?? so be it....I asked for help in this area and so far, i get the voice mail, so to hell with it...do my best.....quit fighting it...quit forcing it....quit over analyzing it....keep it simple and accept that some stuff i am not gonna know and somehow, mabye bc i do put out good energy somehow things will be "ok"......there again....put out good karma, get good karma..........

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

The pain of not trusting became too great for me to handle. Surrendering trust to my HP became the only way to work through my obstacles, restore sanity and health. I faked it until I could make it- and it was a simple, but not easy, process of just doing it. I am a work in progress and it is necessary for me to continue to seek ways to strengthen my relationship with my HP. I was born into a family with some mentally ill members and don't consider it something that was done to me or allowed by my HP for the express purpose of having me suffer. We don't get to choose our family, but thank heavens we get to choose friends. I don't believe that my HP has the purpose of controlling every aspect of my life- if I look at the facts, HP may have been trying to steer me away from my (now) exAH and I wasn't listening. I like your idea of order in chaos theory, as I have found it incredibly helpful to substitute the "why" for the "what for".

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

ohno: I've given some more thought to your questioning. One of the things I know about my spiritual journey is that I had to have some concrete idea of a HP. Although I understand to some degree considering HP as energy, I also find that isn't helpful to me when I need something concrete. I also cannot relate to a HP as Father - especially at 66 and because I can't relate to Catholic priests as Father - especially when they're not my Dad and are in their 20s and 30s or my age. Sometimes, remembering a person who I know loved me a lot as a child or older helped me focus on HP's qualities that were comforting, inspiring, beautiful, powerful, vulnerable. One of the images that really worked for me once was the image of a kindly grandmother who was honest with me, had firm boundaries, but was also supportive and encouraging. I had been loved very well by both of my grandmothers and each person's qualities or charism balanced nicely together for me. They had other qualities, too, but I just wanted to share a little about the visuals that worked well for me as a concrete image or visual that was temporary way for me to relate to a HP.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 5th of January 2015 12:55:31 AM

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha ohno. I keep reading your posts and replies and find your process usual for me..."I did it this way also" I think and I did. Ours is a process of "coming to understand" and not perfection. I once learned from a statement inside of a meeting about attempting to find recovery with the same brain I used in the disease and that taught me I would have a lifetime of work to do reaching out for help with "an open mind" and coming to understand that a high power was necessary to keep my ego and pride in check or else I would always be in trouble.

I didn't have so much of a problem accepting the consequences of my life back then as coming from the choices I made. Blaming God for the condition of my life seemed ludicrous and it was. I knew it would be the easy way out for me if I could do it so the Al-Anon philosophy of "if nothing changes...nothing changes" made quick sense to me. Obviously I didn't know how to have, keep and use higher powers and that was true. In the program my first higher power given to me was the "door knob". I knew it was metaphorical and understood the justification that came with the metaphor at that time, "you can't open a door without one" and so door knob it was until I was free enough to keep progressing. I went back to the beliefs of my Roman Catholic upbringing which helped me grow and make a strong connection with the God of my understanding then and we; He and I grew in relationship which changed some when I accepted ancient perception of the "Creator/Father" which I learned from the voice of a Blackfoot Indian and Al-Anon member who could not converse with his higher power within my language and thought and understanding and I found his more intimate and direct and suddenly more personal. I was also born and raised within a ancient culture and the personality and presentations of my Higher Power became more intimately defined thru the efforts of that Higher Power who remains with me presently. My spiritual, mental, emotional, physical and behavioral life is now very centered around the relationship which keeps me in this program which principles and traditions reflect my HP's desire for me.

From my experience I would suggest keeping open to your Higher Power and trusting and allow it to touch you as it wills while you attempt to touch it on you own will. I found out that the relationship is mutual in love and all other respects. It was my Creator Father's desire that I find the doors of Al-Anon when I didn't know what I was looking for at that time or what the problem was in my life...a problem I was born within...alcoholism and drug addiction. When I surrendered a power much greater than myself took over and now I am here.

Keep coming back use your courage to keep going and your humility to being teachable. In support. (((((hugs))))) smile

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.