Alcoholics who are not actively drinking (that you know of) are still alcoholics in their heart, mind and soul. It is like being a person with any other terminal disease!

You wrote "We want an intimate, connected marriage, where we both feel loved and supported"- Beware those who tell you ALCOHOLICS  are loving good people effected by a horrible disease- the two are not mutually inclusive. You may not ever know if he is truly anything because of his baggage HE may not know himself truly because of his baggage-YOUR staying with him isn't going to fix his hurts! YOU are not abandoning a poor hurt child if you leave him, you may be setting boundries that will save you, what you do know right now, is how his behavior is making you feel!!

Oh my the twisted games they play... I hope it helps you to hear that I have experienced the same emotional abuse from a man who is an alcoholic and I believe perhaps also a psychopath (meaning he has no ability to feel empathy, among other horrible things). He was diagnosed with skitzo affective disorder at one time, but then when they drink you can't really diagnose what is going on because alcoholism is so horrible it takes on many faces and it becomes which came first the chicken or the egg...are they mentally ill because of drinking or are they drinking because they are mentally ill. FOR US, IT DOES NOT MATTER the abuse of those they love is the same.

I was told in alanon that a true alcoholic drinking or not will continue to hurt those who love them unless they get into serious treatment and AA. If that is true your basically living with a dry drunk.  Hurt people HURT other people and it really never stops. They can't make the miraculous turn around we hope for. That is unrealistic.

After my break up I also was close friends with a male alcoholic with 17 years sobriety who went to AA regularly. He still lacked empathy and was self centered. I found myself repulsed by his behavior- even though it was a long lost love type of situation- I didn't even want to pursue it because I saw similar issues as my active drinking alcoholic.  

My ex A used the word "hammered" when describing my trying to get my (natural, normal deserved) emotional needs met. It helped me when I went to alanon and learned that that is typical alcoholic behavior-twisting and turning things, it a way that sounds logical. The lower they can make you feel the more likely they will feel okay about their horrible behavior. The man I was with also had a horrible sexually emotionally and physically abusive childhood and lived with both parents being alcoholics, they abused him the way he abused me emotionally, he may have thought it was normal to treat someone with such distain or he may have done it to hurt me, I still don't know. When I stopped trying to figure out why things were the way they were I was able to think more of me and my best interest. It was a long hard breakup!  

After a few years of "recovery time"  I'm now with someone who isn't cruel to me and isn't addicted and I am so surprised how normal I am now LOL!

When I need reassurance, he gives it. When he hurts me (even if he didn't do anything wrong) he apologizes or explains what he meant. When I need to talk he literally says "it's okay if you need to talk, I don't mind you asking me questions etc. )  on and on... Often I shake my head and think how miserable these basic things were before.

You will ultimately do what you want to do. We humans do that and it's okay. I'm just telling you how glad I am I went through the pain of the separation which was hard but so worth it!

I repeat this a lot on this board, I think it's because I wish so much I could have heard those who tried to help me earlier in my life and I'm so incredibly thankful to have eventually been set free of the abuse!

 

 

 

-- Edited by glad on Monday 29th of December 2014 02:31:10 PM

-- Edited by glad on Monday 29th of December 2014 02:36:17 PM

You married my AH's twin! My husband was dry for the first 15 years of our marriage and I could have written what you wrote nearly word for word. You are not alone. Just because someone quits drinking doesn't mean they are sober. Sobriety is being sober mentally, spiritually, emotionally AND physically by abstaining from alcohol. My AH was always very proud of the fact that he didn't drink.

I thought my AH suffered from narcissistic personality disorder because no matter how hard I tried, I felt that I wasn't getting my needs met. I finally shut down and had no feelings at all for years throughout our marriage. My AH once told me that being married to me was like being married to a guy because I never had meltdowns or explosions of anger or crying fits....nothing. What I didn't realize was that I was dead inside; spiritually and emotionally drained from being the one who was trying to keep our marriage afloat. There is too much water under the bridge right now for me to see us fixing things along with the fact that he's been drinking now for the past 3 years. We will be separating in a few months, once our 16 year old finishes sophomore year (or possibly before that).

At certain points in our marriage I would use sex to try to make things better. I would say to myself, "Ok, if you just do this tonight, he'll be in a better mood tomorrow and MAYBE you can talk to him about how he hurt your feelings last week because of what he said/did/whatever." I was becoming sick and didn't even know it, emotionally deteriorating and trying whatever my sick brain could think of to make things more comfortable and bearable for me. We tried marriage counseling, too, but he was actively drinking and it didn't get us anywhere.

I second what Grateful said above: try Al Anon. It has saved my life and has helped me get back in touch with who I am and with what I want for my life. Your story really touched me because I can relate. We have the nice house, live in a decent suburban neighborhood, drive luxury cars, etc but those things don't fix personality clashes in a marriage, they don't restore broken hearts, and they certainly don't turn an alcoholic(dry or not) into a recovered alcoholic. Recovery is a lifelong commitment for any alcoholic and it requires effort and commitment from them as does our recovery demand of us. Hugs to you!! Welcome to the boards!

My x was charming - to the outside world.  In our marriage he was mentally, emotionally and physically abusing me.  The only people I went to about the abuse were priests who asked me what I was doing to bring on the abuse.  They counseled I should go home and find ways to love my husband more so that the abuse didn't continue.  They were abusive themselves although I didn't recognize it at the time.  If someone says they feel hurt and betrayed because of something that occurred such as you experienced and that is never acknowledged or validated by the person who did it or the person who is supposedly in place to help you as the title "therapist" would imply simply tells you that you have anger issues (hell, yes, I've got anger issues given how I'm being treated with no support currently) that you should work through - you are being abused by both the perpetrator of the abuse and the "helper" who is subtly blaming the abused person.  I believe what has happened to you.  I believe that it is still going on.  I believe you have a right to feel angry about the abuse.  I also believe you have a right to ask for an acknowledgment of the wrong done to you and if the answer is no, you also have the right to move on until you do find someone who will believe you and validate your thoughts, feelings and needs. 

 

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 29th of December 2014 07:11:53 PM

Great responses!  Listen to your anger, it needs to be heard and expressed in an environment where you will be understood.  Al anon meetings are safe places; it does not sound as though your therapist provides a safe space.  It is safe here, too.  Your husbands sobriety is wonderful, however, his behavior is that of a dry drunk.  I cannot live with dry drunk behaviors.  Dry drunks need recovery through AA.  Take care of you, always.  Get support..you will not find it with your husband unless he enters into a recovery program and it does not sound as though your therapist is skilled in dealing with addictive behaviors.

When we live with the disease, we can think we're crazy, but the disease is crazy making. It's even harder to put our finger on the problem when the A isn't in a program of recovery but isn't drinking either. Al-Anon does help us see how the disease is affecting us and helps us begin to capitalize on our assets/strengths which have been ripped at in subtle and not so subtle ways by a disease over which we are powerless and is cunning, baffling and powerful. As you can see, we are all believers in Al-Anon being a good place for you to go to get help for yourself and to learn more about this crazy making disease that can take a perfectly good day and turn it into a nightmare for us who live with it. We even begin to question when something hurts if it hurts. For me, living with the disease of alcoholism or working with it, was like being one of the little creatures who would go to eat food and be shocked when they got there. It happened enough times that these little creatures - having no idea what was happening to them and learning that eating was painful became confused and even though hungry would no longer even attempt to go for the food. They simply stayed where they were and died of hunger which was due to being mistreated by scientists they couldn't see nor could they understand what was happening. Al-Anon will help you understand what is happening. You are not crazy. You are living with a crazy making disease that as I said earlier is cunning, baffling and powerful. 

It also sounds to me as if you are living with a passive aggressive person who knows exactly how to push your buttons or hurt you and when you say "ouch" corrects you because after the 10th time of doing it in a single day you are over-reacting and if only you would blah, blah, blah.  And if you do blah, blah, blah, they will tell you you aren't using the right words, its a bad time for them or their mother made them eat soap when they were four years old for saying a bad word and that's why they're so messed up today.  Al-Anon will help you learn how to let him feel his own anger - if he is passive aggressive - because you won't act it out for him.  You will learn how to see what truly is going on and ways to deal with it by drawing boundaries - not intended to change him - but to take care of you.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 29th of December 2014 08:09:12 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 29th of December 2014 08:29:11 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 29th of December 2014 08:29:56 PM

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful insights!  Wow! Since my first post I have attended an alanon meeting, and will continue to do so, as well as read this board and other alanon info.  I also had a serious talk with my husband about where I'm at...and while I didn't use the word 'dry drunk' (baby steps) I stated firmly that quitting drinking, while a huge accomplishment, is necessary for living a good life with me, but not sufficient...that just as I was having to look at parts of my personality that were not my favorite and hard to admit, that he would have to do the same thing for our marriage to be successful.  Because I was not aggressive or angry, but instead compassionate and kind (and I really felt that way) he really heard me and sincerely spoke about how much it made sense.  I told him that I'm sure it doesn't feel good for him to misplace his baggage on me, that it must be confusing and unsettling for him, and that when I allow him to do that (because this disease really is crazy making!) it probably makes him feel worse in a twisted way.  I told him that I would no longer engage in conversations/arguments with him where he uses his intellect to construct the 'perfect argument' leaving me on the outs.  The truth is, it has always been 100% clear to me when he is doing this, I've just erroneously thought that by engaging and 'debunking' his logic he'd see my point of view and the error of his thinking.  Well, I'm sure you all agree, that is the 100% wrong way to handle it.  So now, I simply state my TRUTH, and when he tries to engage with some bullshit rational, I say, "Nope, not talking about it.  You can just sit with what I already said." And then I disengage, which hasn't been as hard as I thought it would be.   Here is a seemingly simple example:

-->He frequently goes out to get the paper, or something else in the morning, and 'accidentally' locks himself out by not unlocking the knob before he closes the door behind himself.  He does this again yesterday morning, while I am still sleeping upstairs in bed.  I hear the knocking, which wakes me up, and take my time (find glasses, put hair up in ponytail, etc) to get downstairs to open the door (it's 29 degrees out).  I open it, and he simply just walks in, saying nothing.  Hmmm...I think, as his silence doesn't feel very good and my irritation with him rises.  So I say, very simply and firmly, "This is an example of where you say sorry to someone.  You have locked yourself out a dozen times and make it my responsibility to let you in, regardless of whether or not I'm still sleeping, or just lazing in bed before I decide to get up.  You should say, "Hey, I'm sorry I did this again, and made you get up out of bed to let my freezing ass in, thanks for doing that, I really appreciate it, and I'll try to remember to not lock myself out"  After I said that, I knew there would not be any further conversation on my part but was not surprised when he did not apologize and instead said, "Oh, well I thought you were up already so it wasn't like I was trying to wake you up.  It was really just a misunderstanding."  I then said, "Absolutely not.  NOT a misunderstanding in any way, shape or form.  It was RUDE and self-centered,  and the type of thing one, who cares about another, apologizes for with ease, period, end of conversation"  And as he tried to spin it further...saying he only went out there to get the paper for me because he knows how much I like to read it in the morning, I simply raised my eyebrows, and gave him a 'do you think I'm an idiot' look, and walked out of the room.   I decided I was content to spend the day doing my own thing because I'm done being treated like this.  And this is a tiny example of the poor treatment I've received, for sure, but still symbolic.  Within 15 minutes, he came and found me, apologized with sincerity, and further thanked me for being so clear and unwavering.  I said I appreciated his apology and thanks and that this is what life was going to look like for us going forward and was he game?  He said he was...

So I know the bumps in the road will be large as we try to navigate things differently.  And I don't know if he will be capable in the end.  I know that he wants to do better and will try to do better but I also know that he may not be able to and that I don't control the outcome.  letting go of trying to force him to get it, feels really good.  I feel like I've gotten my SELF back, regardless of the outcome.  This SELF feels like the good friend you haven't seen in decades but can pick right up with.  I know that I will falter, and fail, and get sucked back in at some points, but I'm also sure that I'll pick myself back up and get back on track.  I also will be speaking frankly to our therapist about whether or not he saw, or sees, the effect of being a dry drunk on our marriage? If he equivocates I will politely tell him that this will be our last session.  I think I'm on the right track and I specifically gained strength from the following:

-grateful2be's explanation of how CRAZY MAKING this disease (whether drinking or not) is!  As you can see by my subject line for this post...I was seriously starting to think I was crazy!

-Jerry F's and Andromeda's saying that my story was theirs, almost word for word!!  Obviously, that can't be coincidence...

-hotrod's phrase "Say what I mean, Mean what I say, and don't say it Mean"!!! perfect! And will be my new motto, I hope you don't mind my copying it, though I've given you your proper citation!

PP's advice to really "listen to my anger" it is telling me something important.  Oh boy, the next few months will be tough as I endeavor to simply, firmly, and hopefully with kindness address it when I feel it.  I told my husband if he wants the marriage we both talk about, to 'buckle his seatbelt and pull it tight' it's gonna be a bumpy ride and he's gonna have to get on board if he wants what he says he wants with me.

aquamom23's noticing of my strength-thanks!  I have always though of myself as strong, but it's nice to hear that someone else notices.  If I don't share my story with anyone (which I haven't really done, but am beginning to with my family and friends and it feels good) how would anyone know of my strength?

And last, glad's description of a 'normal' relationship or interaction style: "When I need reassurance, he gives it. When he hurts me (even if he didn't do anything wrong) he apologizes or explains what he meant. When I need to talk he literally says "it's okay if you need to talk, I don't mind you asking me questions etc. )  on and on.  This is my hope for our marriage.  I know I can't control making it happen...in fact, I have to give up control.  I can only set boundaries and detach from him to give both of us space to just be.

Thanks everyone, and I wish all of yous strong souls happiness and contentment as you also navigate these difficult fields.  I will continue to follow the alanon steps and gain strength from them and the group.

 

 

 

Wow the second post today that makes me want to run outside screaming YESSSSSSS! It is cold and windy, so I will visualize it  You found your voice and it did not take long...it has been waiting for far too long.  Well done!