Because I'm a woman? - Al-Anon Family Group

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Because I'm a woman?

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I'd clean the floors because they're both exhausted, she's had the flu and I can do it if they're dirty and then I'd be concerned after I went home that they might think I was making a statement about their housekeeping and worry that they might be angry because they felt insulted by my desire to be kind in some way. Then, I'd remember it was my motives that mattered and not their reaction to my kindness. Good that you are checking your motives for why you've decided not to wash their floors.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 22nd of December 2014 08:59:20 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 22nd of December 2014 09:05:27 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 22nd of December 2014 09:05:57 PM

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Catherine that exact scenario played through my head just before I wrote this!! Crazy to be feeling slighted by my projection of what people MIGHT think in reaction to something I haven't even done yet....
I love unravelling this crazy thinking, it's very liberating.

-- Edited by missmeliss on Monday 22nd of December 2014 08:59:48 PM

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I added two sentences to my response. I clicked out too fast and came back in probably while you were writing and posting? It does all boil down to motives, doesn't it? What we do?

(I had to edit my first post yet again. Not one of my best written responses. Geez. Glad I re-read it. Too many Christmas cookies maybe?)

Or maybe I'm upset because Joe Cocker died?

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 22nd of December 2014 09:06:55 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 22nd of December 2014 09:09:39 PM

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes I think I have crossed over from wanting to be helpful and feeling badly for this busy lady to just wanting to "make" her like me.
On each occasion that they stayed under my roof they left me piles of dishes, towels on the floor, bed unmade etc, so it is not healthy for me to be doing more than I am comfortable with in their home. I have more than tidied after myself and it feels like I am feeding my "less than" feelings if I do any more than I have already done. What I will do is buy some nice coffee and leave it on the bench for them. That'll do!!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

smile

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

I am the same way, but more because I grew up being told to leave the place better than how you found it. My father in law broke me of thinking only the woman she tidy up after everyone, his wife did none and he did it all after working long hours all day and he was a recovered A! She was milking all the bad years for all she was worth, no wonder why my exAH was so messed up growing up with a dad that could never serve the two of them enough after his drinking years, even though he went to a rehab when he turned 40 years old and never drank again. Sorry tangent, haha. I did clean up after and wait on my family and exAh and most people, but I don't do it for my children, because I am scared they will expect it like their father always did. I make even my 6 year old rinse her dishes and help me clean up after dinner everyday. It is a fine line of earning your keep and going overboard to make up for insecurities. I like to feel accepted as I am without having to lift a finger, but I also like to lift a finger and be helpful. I think it is all in the motives. Sending you love and support on your walk!!!

Jill · ~*Service Worker*~

I think people pleasing is part of living with someone else's alcoholism. ugh hate it
That's why checking motives is such a wise thing. I am better now at knowing I am enough. Being instead of doing.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Love this process Ms.M. I too "must not clean floors". When i visit my sister each week, I am tempted to do just that (but I do not do it) :)

Great post my friend.

LinSC · Senior Member

"So what is it that makes so many of us females think that if we visit or stay at someone else's house we must prove our worth in chores? And even worse, expect it of each other? I don't bat an eyelid if a male stays with me and doesn't lift a finger but if his female partner is not productive and helpful....well i'll be happy to not like her ever after."

Could this be because we respect how much energy it takes to keep a house clean, I don't think one is proving ones's worth in chores, but it could be respect.

It's vile and icky and yet the compulsion to clean the floors is still with me...not because i want them clean but because i want them to like me....i want them to come home tonight after i have left and shake their heads and say 'oh that Mel, she's a gem, look how clean the place is".

Could this be because you don't want to burn your bridges and you want it to be ok to come back if you need to and they will remember your not a slob.

You haven't received approval from your x or your Mom, and you may be looking for approval/acceptance, I think a basic need.

Aside from feeling like its a "woman thing" I think you may be feeling a sense of cleanliness and order in you mind and therefore are showing it outwardly. A few different things going on here

but for the most part you are questioning and keeping an open mind.

It all started when women were domestic and men the hunters. But you can continue breaking the cycle of society if it feels icky to you. I'm with you.

Take what you like....

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Geeeez it isn't only females that give more than they receive...Guys do it too!! Program takes all the critiquing out of it and the judgments and questioning and such. I do what I do when I do it and then I use acceptance of it. I have boundaries that are different at different times. Sometimes the boundaries seem to be wider and I do more than before and at other times I do less and then what is real is that I most all the time do something and then when done let it go without expectations at all. Self acceptance using grace and margin and mercy lets me operate in my life today without second guessing myself at all. It is what it is and I am what I am...HP likes me.

Yay

(((((hugs))))) smile

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Great post. I totally agree with everything you say. I think it starts at birth. Theres research that says even newborn girls are handled differently from newbornboys. The toys girls are encouraged to play with, the clothes. It is programming and it starts from the beginning. My daughter is interested in all this. She helped with research on the sexualisation of children by big multi national companies. Its very interesting. Its also the beginning of dysfunction and codependency. Its funny, the better i get the more i imagine men feel this way. I blame capitalism mel, it needs people in boxes.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

When I am a guest, I clean up after myself and offer to help in other ways (dinner, dishes, etc) because I want to. There have been times I have been tempted to straighten up messy kitchen counters, but I have stopped. I see that sometimes people like their messy counters and miss butinsky needs to sit on her hands. Maybe you are innately considerate of others....good you noticed when the not so helpful motivations snuck in.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Ah now to clarify, this is not to suggest that one gender or the other does or doesn't do this or that. I just feel uncomfortable with my OWN expectations of men and women when it comes to being a guest. I see a lifetime of thinking I must "earn" my right to be in someone's house and I see myself putting the same expectation on other women...but not men. I see it as an extension of my believing I am "less than" everyone else and something that is supported and encouraged by people in my family and amongst my peers. I think it feeds my own illness so I want to challenge it in myself. I think I cross the line between "wanting to be helpful" and feeling as though I must work extra hard because I am unworthy and unlikable.
As to challenging societal norms, oh yes i absolutely challenge them because in all of my relationships I have been the breadwinner and the homemaker (and the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker). Yet I have always thought myself inferior, unlovable. If i do enough, perhaps I can trick people into liking me in spite of the awful person I am underneath, or something like that.
I don't want that for myself anymore and I certainly don't want to pass it on to my daughter!

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

And there are generally more expectations on women than men to do the clean up and it extends beyond just housework into relationships. There are other expectations of men that I find really unfortunate, yet, being a woman I can only speak from my experience as a woman. I have to really watch that I don't slip into people pleasing behaviors, because then I am manipulating them to get my "oh they like me, I am so special" fix.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Ach pp, i like that feeling, is that not allowed anymore?

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Of course it is allowed and welcomed smile I like it, too, but, like peanut butter cups, the more I eat the more I want!

andromeda · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm not going to respond to the gender issues because I think this applies to everyone, fyi.
I can relate to this completely. Getting people to like me, "Oh, that Bonnie, she's such a peach, look how clean our floors are!" And, I'll finally get the validation from someone that I've been seeking all my life. Here's the thing: I never get the validation in a way that works or meets the empty need inside of me. The root of that is because I have expectations and most of the time people are bound to do it wrong(not enough praise or too much praise, LOL), not do it at all(darn, I really wanted to be seen here), or they throw their own guilt on me (oh, my house isn't clean enough for you? kind of stuff).

With all that said, I think I would be checking my motives. When I am a guest in someone's house, I pick up after myself, make the bed and keep my area neat, and do basic clean up especially dishes and wiping down counters and kitchen table after I've used it. I don't usually do the floors, clean the mirrors(unless I can't see my reflection), dust, vacuum, or whatever unless I'm asked. Not even at my mom's house anymore. I used to do it for the pat on the back from her, the kudos that I was craving from my mother. I've made peace with that part of me and now I try not to go overboard, I do what is normal guest behavior and the rest I leave for the owner of the home. My mom said she misses the old me who would just vacuum her place because I needed praise, LOL. We can joke about it now.

Like PP said, we have to watch that we are not manipulating people because we want that praise. Only our HP can fill that hole we have inside of us. I have worked very hard to release myself from the bondage of needing validation constantly. I was an empty shell from my childhood. The program has taught me that I need to release my expectations, get my validation from my HP, and then move on and enjoy the day and the people I am spending time with.

I don't know if this was helpful but I do know that I can completely relate to your story, Mel!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

On the subject of women, research revealed that generations of women were not valued except for what they could do for others like their husbands and birthing children. Many were tortured, isolated or killed because they weren't seen to have value apart from being an asset for their husbands or as a baby factory. In order to survive, women would do what they could to "prove their worth" or "their value." It hasn't been that long ago when women were burned at the stake for being healers or had no right to vote. To know that we have value merely because we exist and to trust that is a process that will take many moons to embrace if that ever happens. Research has revealed that even our breathing is shallow as if we don't have a right to breathe. Learning to breath deeply and well is something I still am working on. To recognize my femininity as a gift to life and others femininity, too, is a classroom that has been necessary for me.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Tuesday 23rd of December 2014 10:57:25 AM

lgnutah · Senior Member

I wonder if women are more likely to "help out" when they visit someone, because, being women, they are more tuned in to how others' feel and how others would like to be treated.

So, since I would certainly appreciate it if whomever came to visit me pitched in and helped keep the place tidy, then jn turn, when I go visit someone, I want to pitch in.

Frankly. Just because some lout is so self centered that he can't see that his host would appreciate help with the dishes doesn't mean I should lower myself to that level of boorish behavior.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Just went thru a whole bunch of aged family pictures and remember having the thought that the women in the family had submissive postures; men sat in the chairs ad the women stood besides or behind the man. Also have newspaper clippings where the women are not otherwise formally named except with the title of Mrs. and then their husband's last name. Sorry about that. Not going to permit it in my house. (((((hugs))))) smile

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Love this, Jerry. I love ballroom dancing because its beautiful to watch but also because the man's job is to frame and support the woman. My research has also revealed that a mate's work is to protect his spouse's heart and not go after it. When a woman feels safe and supported by the strength and loving support of her husband, all sorts of beautiful things can happen in their home and in their community. I chose to drop my x's name because I believed he didn't deserve credit for anything I chose to do with my life. He had been a hindrance to it and struck at everything that I valued and treasured with his "Captain of the Ship" mentality to which he wanted me to be submissive to while we were married. I chose to marry him, be surprised by him and his cruelty, and stay with him for 8 years until I recognized the evil for what it was and how it damaged my kids and me. Fortunately, there was a power much greater than the man in my life and that power saved me from believing it was my job to live with such a sick unfortunate. His Dad, on the other hand, cherished his wife and did frame and support her until he died. What a difference alcoholism and drug addiction can make in a person. Glad you were saved by that loving higher power, too.

aquamom23 · Senior Member

Grateful I love that ballroom dancing analogy. Frame and support. Miss melly, I hear you. I perform cleaner, but culturally was raised to " be a blessing" when in another's home. So when I perform it, I feel I am being a reflection on my raising, and my mothers no fool. No saint, but no fool. I feel closer to her and my nan when I keep a clean kitchen. Yes its a certain amount of people pleasing, but it also pleases me. I do think there's an expectation, funny also how no one notices what gets done until it isn't! Though that's an interpersonal relationship note rather than a guest note. For you and me, I vote holiday Bach by the ocean, fire for stove and paper plates! Xxooo

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Or fish n chip paper for plates and never mind the fire

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.