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People here often make mention of the fact that when you start to have boundaries and defend them, people push back, and hard. And change tactics...
Well I did expect this and I have figured the only way to really grow and continue on a road to serenity is to limit my contact with people that are used to pushing me around, aka my former ABF and my mother. Every time I mess up and engage with either party I end up angry and petty and childish and utterly sucked in. The less I interract with them, the lighter and more joyful and worthwhile I feel. It's pretty simple really. I don't love either person any less, in fact detachment makes it easier to love them in some ways because I am learning not to depend on them for love or validation and can thus appreciate them on other levels. Sort of like that awesome thing Cathy posted recently about just appreciating trees for being trees instead of trying to lable them as being too this or too that...I loved that, it was brilliant.
Well the A formerly known as ABF is fairly predictable anyway, when I talk to him lately butter wouldn't melt in his mouth and he just wants to "help" and of course he is my champion and I shouldn't trust anyone else because only he understands and loves me and so on and so forth. Okie Dokie. The less face time we have the more I appreciate the distance. and know for sure, there is no going back. At this point we are "being friends" which is why we are still in contact, I recognise this isn't healthy and needs to stop but it's where we have landed for the moment and i know I should break contact altogether but it's quite hard when I don't have a single person in the world that I would even call a friend. That so needs to change, it isnt good for him to keep up the false hope, and it isn't good for me to have him as my only point of reference, still. Sigh. I'm not doing things perfectly but I am working towards what feels good and right to me and doing the very best I can. It's a long crawl from needy doormat to wherever it is I am going instead, but I bought a one way ticket and I intend to see out the journey. I see my mistakes, i make steps to correct them, that's all I can do. I do also care about him and see that I am not being helpful to him. I'm just finding my footing, give me time...
So yesterday morning I was awoken by tapping on my window. When I pulled back the blind and saw him standing outside I immediately assumed he was drunk (he lives a long way away) and rushed outside to "deal" with him expecting a nightmare. Only he hadn't been drinking, he was Mr Congeniality and he had come all this way to pay his debt to the real estate agent, showed me the receipt, said he had to be going but that he was going to do everything he could to help me move into "my own place" and mentioned a 3 bedroom he had seen. He says, "I will sign the lease with you so you can get the house easily with 2 incomes. I wont move in, it's just to help you get it". I tell him, nicely, "A, I want a 2 bedroom house, I want to live with daughter only and that's what I am going to do" and he pouts and then asks me to look at this place anyway and as he leaves he says 'I cant stay at my brothers much longer, i don't feel at home at all". Ergo, he can't push his brother around or suck the life out of him, so he needs to live with me, the compliant and easily broken love of his life. No-one else will do. Interesting how he is so desperate for me to rent a 3 bedroom place yet he "isn't going to live in it", add it to his other claims that he cant stand living at his brothers because they want him to get a job and he doesn't want to get a job, thus he needs to share with someone but he cant stand to live with anyone but me, but he wants me to rent a place and he isnt going to want to live in it but....around and around and around we go, as if i dont see what would happen, if he signed a lease with me he would be drunk on the doorstep 2 days later ranting that he is on the lease and has every right to live there and if I don't like it, there's the door and i can leave any time I want!!! Anyway this isn't particularly bothersome or upsetting, its just that to me the "I love you and i only want to help and you can only trust me" stuff seems like another tactic, call me cynical but i think he is just thinking it is what will work on me at the moment. If he thought he would get better results by abusing me and making me utterly miserable he would do that just as readily, whatever gets him what he wants in the end...which is me back the way I was and under his thumb. Oh well, good on him for trying. I don't feel angry, just irritated with myself for not being stronger and still entertaining the bull. Or more to the point there is still a very tiny (and shrinking every day) part of me that still loves him and thinks "but maybe...just maybe".
Mother is a whole other level though.
I've said here that she has been cruel and nasty for months, taunting me and telling me I cannot cope and had better come to her house and daughter will have to go to a high school she has picked out and I should just give up and get a job in a sheltered workshop and my life is pathetic and blah blah. Some of the things she has said would make her hide her face in shame if she thought anyone else had heard her say them. She uses the word 'retard" a lot and I personally think that's a pretty abusive term to use with your own offspring. "Oh I was only joking" she would cry. The things she says don't even border on jokes, "I think you are a little bit retarded Melissa" "I think you might be a bit of a retard Melissa"... To all outside appearances she is a meek little Catholic woman who wouldn't say "damn" if you threatened to set her on fire. Or "boo" to a goose. What she says to her children and husband is a whole different ball-game. Anyway I have responded little, and been quite direct with her, telling her I am only interested in positive conversation and don't have time for negativity or criticism. I mentioned I blocked her for her nasty comments recently, honestly it was amazing how outwardly nasty she was getting when I didn't respond or get upset. Almost like she was in a frenzy of nastiness. But like a sucker I unblocked her and spoke to her again. She's my mother. I am not made of stone. Does anyone here watch supernatural? Theres a thing going on at the moment where the king of hell is being emasculated by his mother. I want to hug him.
So one of her favorite things to do recently has been to ask me over and over the same questions...how much are daughters school fees, how much are her books, how much is her uniform, how can you pay that, you can't, you don't even have anywhere to live, you will have to come here, on and on and on she has gone about how i wont be able to do it, she keeps saying i wont be able to find a house and I had better just go there to live and stop this "nonsense". I've been self supporting since i was 15, and it is "nonsense" to think i can get back on my feet? Pfft. I'm in a hard time and it will pass, shame on her for trying to capitalise on it and break me down. And to be honest it got to a point where her taunts and put downs were actually making me feel stronger, the meaner she got the more absurd and childish and nasty she seemed so it wasn't really upsetting and i was kind of finding it amusing and responding to her barbs either with silence or with nonsense of my own. She asked me what I want for Christmas. I told her a troupe of performing monkeys. She almost busted a gut laughing. Oh melissa, you're so funny, whatever for? I swear I was kings fool in a past life. Making mother laugh is a fine art.
So yesterday she messages me and she seems like she is being nice, and she is making suggestions, "I always got second hand uniforms for my children, I always got second hand books, you have to be thrifty it's the only way, surely you can do that" and I fell for it, it seemed like she was actually relating to me on a ground level. And I tell her what i have learnt about the school demanding a new uniform and having changed the texts so they have to be bought new and she says..."well Melissa, I suppose normal people would have been saving up for their child to start high school". Sure, why didn't I think of that? seriously. If only I had thought of saving?
So she kept firing messages at me, firstly to say it was my brothers birthday, he is 29 so that must make you feel old Melissa (nice), and he is a sad human being with no idea how to live he didn't come home for the birthday dinner she cooked (that was when i realised she was drunk) (later I learned my brother had worked a double shift and that was why he hadnt been home for dinner and he had TOLD her he would be doing that, so she had cooked a birthday dinner out of spite when she knew he wouldnt be home and then sat down with the dinner going cold and gotten drunk and resented him for not being there and decided to take it out on me, good, I hope he buys himself a nice present with his earnings) and then she started the daily questions "so have you found a house, isnt it time you accepted you cant live on your own, isnt it time you tell daughter she cant go to that school, how much money do you have, you know its impossible" and I remembered something she used to tell me ALL the time when i was growing up...you NEVER ask someone about their finances because it's RUDE so I told her so, mum why are you asking me about money, didnt you teach me it was rude to do that
So I wont discuss my finances with her any more and turned off the computer to go find some positive vibes to soak up. Look I love my mother, no mistake but EVERY single thing she says is mean, and it just gets meaner and meaner, it's quite sick. It's like she's so damaged and defensive that the only way she can relate to anyone is by putting them down and trying to make them smaller than she is and then maybe she can throw them some crumbs of kindness. It's like voluntarily jumping into a cage with an abused and angry pitbull. On PCP. My stepdad calls her 'the terminator" and i used to think it was funny but it really isn't. It's sad for her and the children that are trying to love her. Every birthday dinner or celebration is like this, she constructs something and then plays out this whole resentment scenario because we don't "appreciate" what she has done. Sometimes I think she only gets out of bed every morning before dawn to spite the sun. "I put all of that effort into waking up and the selfish sun wasn't even there. He was probably off wasting time with the moon. I've been waking up at the same time every day for years you know and that selfish sun has never even bothered to show up. .
When I checked my messages this evening she had written me a long message saying "It was always my intention to pay for your daughters schooling. We have worked it all out and your grandmother is buying her ipad for christmas and we will be paying xyz (she lists all of the fees and charges, she has obviously contacted the school and has known what they were for a long time but thought it would be fun to ask me every day and rub it in and pretend she was unknowing). " So you shouldn't be making your poor daughter worry about money, she should be excited and enjoy starting high school not be worried about YOUR financial mess Melissa. Children shouldn't have to worry about money". And then she demands all of my financial information, how much I will be getting in, how much everything will cost, she thinks she is going to take over my budget and I'd better "find a house pronto and let her know how much it is". You know when i was a kid all that woman did was make me worry about money, my friends parents used to buy me clothes and shampoo, deoderant etc because i was so unkempt and my clothes were so tight, I was kind of pathetic. They would blatantly say to me "your mother has a lot to answer for" and my grandmother would buy me what she could and tell me 'your mother is very selfish, i don't understand her". So, I am working through resentments at the moment and I didn't resent that stuff until now but it's as if she is finally driving in the last nail...telling me my daughter shouldnt have to worry about money and should have everything she needs and just have fun! I feel as if she is using my daughter as a weapon against me to be honest. That woman collected me early from school one day in my first week of high-school and drove me to a job interview she had arranged and therafter i worked after school to buy my own freaking food (I was vegetarian and she didnt think she should have to buy weird food), clothes, soap etc!! Errrr resentment alert...resentment alert....
I'm sorry there is so much "he said she said" here. It helps to get it down and make sense of it because I don't have anyone to discuss any of it with and I don't want it to get all twisted up in my head. Yes i should be working through this stuff with a sponsor. In truth i haven't been to a meeting in weeks and I notice when i don't go to meetings, i tend to blurt out a lot of ugly stuff here. I feel tired, antisocial, broken, lost in my own head. Good reasons to go to meetings, yeah I know.
But anyway isn't it nice that I have not asked for help or involvement of any kind yet she has worked it all out, discussed it with my grandmother and then after "letting me sweat" for long enough, decided to announce that she will be saving the day and I'd better get down on my knees and beg and give her control of my finances and be accountable to her and generally behave like a good little minion.
Now, at first this felt like a dilemma. I told her "thanks anyway but i haven't asked for help and don't require it" and her answer was of course "don't be so stupid, are you going to punish your poor child because of your own pride".....oh, she's good. She's very, very good.
But what I have come to see so clearly is that she never, EVER has a kind word for me or any concern for my wellbeing. Just putdowns and taunts and criticism and always, the trump card is "your poor daughter". Daughter is anything but poor in fact to compensate for my endless guilt I am sort of starting to see that I am facilitating turning her into a bit of a spoilt brat who treats me like a doormat. She goes on an average of 2 overseas or Queensland holidays every year with her father, goes out every friday night to a group that does activities like ghost tours or night surfing or outdoor lazer-tag, every cent I have is spent on her, she has a huge allowance from both me and her grandmother, every piece of technology you can imagine, she has a life I could never have even DREAMED of when I was a child, and my mother keeps using "your poor daughter" on me? Any wonder I have a freaking cindarella complex. (I love my girl and she's amazing, don't misunderstand, but I am waking up now and this guilt and feeling like i have to virtually sell my own organs to make daughter's life perfect is extremely unhealthy for my girl AND myself. My housemate has noted that daughter(who she adores) walks all over me and treats me like a servant and it's true and it has to end. It;s not the example I want to set, and it certainly isn't helping me grow. And daughter knows this too, I think. The other day I went around to the old house to collect my mail and as a matter of habit I brought the bins in. When I got back in the car daughter said disdainfully "why did you bring their bins in? They are treating you like crap and trying to rip you off. Why would you bring their bins in?" She makes a lot of comments like this, like "why are you so weak and sucky mum". It makes me feel so angry, that my child has her ego in tact and I just habitually bow and scrape to everyone and she calls me out on it.
So the funny thing is, I am sort of winning here. While I am working out all of this painful crap, (and i am working on it) things are shifting.
A has paid his debt to the landlord because he has an expectation of me. He wants me to go back to the way i was before.
Mother is paying some of my daughters high-school expenses because she has an expectation of me. She wants me to go back to the way I was before.
If I can just take mastery of my guilt, I think HP just solved my financial woes for me.
I think I won.
-- Edited by missmeliss on Thursday 11th of December 2014 06:46:25 PM
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Mel I gotta ask the question because I'm reading and hearing voices from my past when I first reached the doors of the family groups. One of the voices is the voice of my former sponsor Don't and so I'm asking what is your sponsor telling MisMeliss. The other voices I hear are from all of the fellowship who loved me unconditionally and came at me with their ESH. After hearing all of their ESH and looking at the condition of my life I kept hearing only one voice saying "STOP"!! and then I surrendered completely. I turned my family; all of it, and my alcoholic/addict over and let go of a whole crowd of people who I was attached to for such a long sick time and turning my alcoholic/addict over was so sad that I wept openly...just imagine a man weeping openly in front of strangers wanting to support him. I found out that the enabler most usually invests more widely and deeply into the relationship with the addict/alcoholic because there-in lies the opportunity to show myself and others that I am loving and being loved in return. God did the disease love that because it ruled completely. "STOP" is what worked first for me. It still does. ((((hugs))))
I don't remember if you have a meeting nearby but if you do, that would be such a good place to find that cohort of friends and supporters that could help dilute the ultra-crazy-making behavior of your mother and your A.
You have so much awareness and so many smarts that I know you will prevail.
But what I really came to say is that when you describe the insanity of your two qualifiers, my thought was that you already have the troupe of performing monkeys.
You don't need to feel guilty. But you have in effect sold something to the devil here. Take it from me, I hate family and finances mixed together. I have lived through years of guilt and anger in my wife's family and with friends due to various loans getting given, repaid or not repaid, not given to control, etc.
Now you have had money ostensibly given to you by a control freak. I'm not saying you shouldn't take it, but what I am saying is be prepared to deal with the consequences. She wil be able to hold this over your head forever, since it's actually a tangible item and not just a feeling. And she will likely go back and forth between you owe her for it, and of course it's a gift because you should take charity because you are "slightly retarded" and charity is the only thing you could get.
It may be your only alternative, but it may not be, I would want to explore ANY other option first.
I would say thank you MOM and let it go. What she pays for or not is her choice isn't it....you can't control it no matter what you say or do.
As far as the A....that is going to be your choice on what to do. Live with him....live without him. I myself will continue to live with my SO because I made that choice...even though I'm sick about my choice
In the end.....NO GUILT needed
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Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
I can relate to feeling a lot of guilt and trying to give my children everything and selling myself short. Al-anon has taught me to drop the guilt and now I am better about not letting my kids run me the way the oldest used to and why wouldn't she, it is what I taught her. I took my power back and have taken my place as her Mother, not friend, not doormat, but respected Mother. I am done trying to please everyone at the cost of me losing. I can hear the awareness and growth in you and know you are on your way! Sending you love and support!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
Hi, I was thinking of you yesterday and wondering how things were going.
It is good to hear that ex has paid his debt. I am finding that AH is doing lots of things that I would describe as codependent if I was doing them. My part is to accept the bits that are helpful and leave the rest I think. I don't have to feel guilty if I say no to a seemingly generous offer. In fact I celebrate the fact that I can recognise when someone else's behaviour makes me feel uncomfortable.
I agree with Cathy, if your mother wants to contribute to your daughter's schooling and it is helpful then why not accept it? If she wants to use it as a weapon to hold over your head in the future you can refuse negativity and just visualise her as a slightly knotty tree - step aside from her hurtful comments. It seems to me that they are not about you.
I dont think you should feel guilty mel. Your daughter doesnt beling to anyone so if the grandmothers want to do this for their grand daughter then I would let them.
Mel, you are a strong woman, noone can victimise you unless you let them, no one can treat you badly or use you and abuse you unless you let them. The power to stop feeling this way lies within you and wont stop until you say NO, and do NO.
Its a kind of logical formula that worked for me, so your mother calls you a retard, if you let it go with no action you have given her permission and away she goes. Its like banking future abuse. Why you would let it go is where your step work comes in. If you let it go then another tiny bit of self esteem goes down the pan, you feel worse about yourself, sorry for yourself and she is on an almighty powerful pedestal in your mind, like a dragon who cant be touched. Remember how you got to see the a for what he was, a sick small human being, well the goal is to see everyone in your life for exactly what they are with very little power over you, including your daughter.
if you deal with people in a matter of fact way for a while then the changes will happen. If your mother calls you a retard, tell her you wont listen to name calling ever ajd if you continue I will hang up and talk to you when you stop the name calling. Then do exactly what you said. No discussions or explanations or arguments, if she trys to turn it that way again warn her you wont listen to this and hang up. Its not easy but it is necessary for almost all areas of your lifeand your well being.
Throuh my own experience I feel its very important you do this with your daughter starting now. If she continues to behave this way and she keeps getting bigger then you are setting you both up to have an abusive relationship. She will take complete control with no maturity. Its a disaster waiting to happen mel, trust me.
these scenarios will most likely go on and on and played out with everyone in your life unless you change the things you can. Start saying no, everything will change all around you. The world will become a friendly place where respect exists.
I guess the thing is I don't have to accept anything from mother. I have told her plainly and simply, I do not require any help, I will manage fine and please refrain from asking me about my financial situation because as you always taught me, it's rude to ask people about their finances.
So there is no need whatsoever for me to worry about her having any power over me, if she chooses to contact the school and pay fees or present my daughter with uniform etc, that is entirely her business. I can't STOP her doing it, can you imagine of she paid the school fees and I contacted the school and demanded they refund them? I don't think that would work. Or if she gifts a school uniform to my daughter and i demand that she gives it back? I have thought long and hard about this and I think, if I do that, i am jumping into the game.
I have this image of myself chasing mother down the street with uniforms and ipads and cash in my arms screaming 'you take this back! You had no right to do this"....now that would be getting sucked back in. And as you say el-cee, no-one owns my daughter, if they want to pay for stuff for her I don't have to feel it is about me in any way.
I guess the thing is she has an EXPECTATION that if she does this she will reclaim her power over me.
How exactly, if I don't let her?
If I simply repeat "I do not require help, I do not wish to discuss my finances with you" and if she pays anything or gifts anything to daughter then, "that was generous of you" is all I will say. I don't think there is any way for her to "hold it over my head" unless I allow her to. I wont be handing her my budget or falling all over myself with gratitude, or asking her for anything whatsoever. I think it's my choice, whether I allow myself to be indebted and it doesn't have to do with forcing her to pay for things or not pay for them or any such thing. She has no power other than that which I give her.
Also i don't accept her abusive words and have and do tell her if she talks like that i will be going and back it up. What has been amazing to me is how she keeps changing tactics and trying so hard to get me back into my weak sad accepting state, to be honest the nastier she gets (and it really does keep escalating as i have described) the less respect I have and the more I see how much she relies on me to take her abuse. It's hard to respect someone who needs to tear down their own daughter to make themself feel good, just as I can't respect a man who tears me down for the same reasons. Its weak and pitiful behaviour and it is NOT about me.
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Your awareness is so keen about your own part and how to make the changes in yourself from reacting to the unhealthy dynamics and instead acting on your own behalf. Patterns in others? Similiarities in their behaviors? Choosing significant others whose behaviors echo those of our parents, parents who tell us this is only for your own good. I like that post about the trees too that Cathy posted. What tree are you? I think maybe you're an oak. It would take a lot to blow you over at this point. You've got too much Alanon now for these shenanigans. This is what happens when we grow, the manipulation escalates the more they lose control of us. It's hard to choose ourselves sometimes only to learn that the most important relationships of our lives have been intact only through a compromise of our own self worth and dignity. What do we do when the price of keeping others close is losing ourselves? Good when we can find balance which for me anyway has been a mix of acceptance and boundaries. Thanks for sharing your recovery here and for lots of reminders for not losing ourselves particularly at this time of the year when so many of us can slip in our program to make others happy at this holiday season instead of honoring ourselves and keeping our self respect. (((hugs))) TT
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Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.
I have stopped talking to my mother about my upcoming divorce and
Marriage. I was saying only limited things but even that was too much.
I have been giving my mother new boundaries and keeping the conversation to
15 minutes 30 max. Her feelings are i am just too sensitive right now, she does
Not want to respect any boundaries. i told her she needs to go back to Alanon.
She went for twenty years but she must of had her ears and mind closed to
Any wisdom and growth. She is highly dysfunctional and i say narcissitic.
My mother is my only negative i let into my life right now. I surround myself
With good,caring,supportive and healthy people. Bad people the red flags start
Waving at me, I do not need them, keep away! They just want to try to bring
you down To their level of dysfunction.
In the recovery process i find i stand uo for myself much more often and take
Effective action if someone is taking unfair advantage of me. I recently sent my
Boss an email asking her when was my sleep was scheduled into my work schedule.
After that my schedule was not so long three days in a row.
Keep your chin up and shoulders tall. The more you stay away from bad people
The healthier you will get. i was talking to a girl who is a double winner and she
Started going to alanon for herself,it worked. She also realized she needed only
Healthy people in her life to grow as a person. She only goes to healthy AA meets,
Dumped her unhealthy buddies and is thriving and is loving/accepting herself as
she never Knew was possible with the help of Alanon and AA.
Well after a turbulent weekend daughter and I escaped to the beach finally and caught the last 2 hours of Sunday Sun- no talking about worrisome problems was the rule, just enjoying the beach for a bit. Daughter was in her gorgeous new bathers, I decided my underwear set looked enough like a bikini to get away with lying on a towel without looking to strange. So I said "I don't care what anyone says, I say I look fabulous".....and lay back and SPLAT a seagull promptly pooped all over me. So daughter and I laughed till we almost exploded and hey that's GOOD LUCK right? That HAS to be a sign from HP that things are about to take a big positive turn for me LOL!!!!! (Or it thought I was an oak tree LOL)
Thanks all for the support, I think even though I haven't been feeling particularly good about my state of mind lately I AM so much better at navigating these kinds of "situations" (I mean mother and the financial nonsense, not the bird poop lol) so, I guess its encouraging, just when you think you have gone backwards you realise you haven't, reminds me of that c2c reading about recovery being not linear but like a spiral. So true
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Aw dirty seagulls, definately a message from your hp. Maybe, some things and people and birds are shi@#$ and thats just what it is and its better to laugh.x
