its like a kind of mourning....a loss of an ideal...a hope.......and Betty, i agree, alanon enables me to "come up with" a power greater than I of my own understanding....when i see the trees, flowers...my beloved animals, i know something really beautiful made these.....MY problem, I think, is my lack of faith in the HP's INVOLVEMENT in MY life...not so much existence, but his/hers/its INVOLVEMENT.....I thought about that after i posted this....

My decision is to quit fighting it...quit struggling with it...leave it alone....be open in my heart and see what goes......

Its very possible, I have been struggling with this  too much, rather than let the process happen , what will fit best for me......my early concept of G-d was absolutely horrendous....i have to erase all that and its hard....i was brainwashed that  g-d was somewhere "up there" with a big club in his hand, just waiting to squash me for any transgression i commited, even as a child...I feared and hated this entity who allowed so much suffering and pain in the world and no visible attempt to use its power to help....Now , i do meditations to give up this resentment/animosity/anger towards this entity who perhaps IS merely respecting the law of choice and free will...

ALL my hardships and pain are MAN made....MAN's evil on me in some way or another, but it was MAN.....I think this is why i am sort of a loner, not the "hanging out" type, unless it is with my few, very few close loved ones.....i just don't make friends very quickly...very slow to give my affections and even slower to give my trust...so its global, my lack of trust...

anyway, i decided, over these past days, being under seige of late, to just stop wrangling with this and let be what will be

I hope this made sense.....I WOW!! what would I do if i didn't have safe folks to share this with????? 

That sweet little chicken protecting herself with the tiny holster, rifle and bullets may be part of the You that you seek, Rosie? I don't know. But maybe?  All I know is when I first saw her and now when I think of her, pools of vulnerability, gentleness and a soft voice well up in me.  I just want to pick that little chick up and tell her she is beautiful, she is safe, she is loved and she brings so much goodness and laughter into the world just being her sweet, tiny and soft self.

There has been research done by folks in the recovery field by the name of Linn.  Two things I remember from their work although this is more about alcoholics than those victimized by adult parents.  I still think it might be helpful to you. 

1.  Many people struggling with alcoholism (and maybe we can substitute another word that might work better for you, Rose) are often poets, mystics, musicians, artists who were put down and not allowed to express themselves through the arts (which is a link to their own identity and spirituality - mine not Linns')

2.  Alcoholics (or whomever we want to put in here) will not recover if theysee an image of God that is schizophrenic i.e. this god rewards us for doing good and punishes us for doing bad.  When they can let go of that image and allow another, they have a better chance at recovery according to their research.

I have pictured my HP in many ways.  If one doesn't work for me, I find another.  And usually my image of my HP changes as I change.  Judge, magician, warrior, protector, defender, martyr, victim have been some of those images that I used when I needed to use them.  The important thing for me has been to refuse to make an idol of an image.  Once I feel the pinch of the imagery I've allowed as form to relate to for my HP, I fight against it in an almost involuntary way much like a teen fights against the structure that helped it grow and develop, tire out, grow still, surrender and am offered yet another way to view HP.

I don't know if any of this might be helpful to you but did want to share it.  And btw:  I love you for you.  I don't care if you believe in a HP or if you don't believe in an HP.  I just care that you know I love you for you and my world has been made better many times because of you.

PP wrote:

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These were gut wrenching, risky, courageous posts. Rose, it does not matter what you say, how you say it or how you feel, I will accept and love you.  I don't have much to give this evening, as it has been a difficult few days, but I will PM you when I can to share some things that may not be appropriate to share on the general forum.  Until, then, please be extra gentle with you as this is some heavy stuff that is beginning to unwind.  Take extra care.

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 Dear (((((Paula)))))  I can't tell ya how much this means...to be loved and accepted with all my brokeness....i am being gentle w/me today and i guess i will need to work Xtra hard to be easy on me.....I almost feel like i am in mourning....My sponsor and my two adopted sisters and a child hood friend/recovery mate knew about this, but coming out on this board has helped me see that i am not "tainted" or anything...the warmth I got from you gals is like putting aloe vera on a severe burn,  it felt good...i expected my sponsor/life long friend and my other recovery mate who is another life long friend and my 2 adopted sisters, yea, i would expect them to love me if i were godzilla destroying New York City, but to get on this board and tell folks who haven't met me face to face, who haven't shared a life time of love and closeness,  now THAT is differnt...I was a bit scared to share, but i thought  "ya know..I am gonna do it...just tell them...tell it like it is an get this off my chest...maybe it will help me to share w/other folks....a real test sorta"  because I did , sorta, feel like a defect.....reading you all's responses is saying to me that i am "OK"  no matter what.....i think the greater risk would have been to NOT share this b/c I have NO idea, will NEVER know how many others feel the same an are too scared to say so..So they suffer in silence..isolated in a way......maybe i opened up an avenue down which the others can travel and not feel like they will be thrown under the bus......Love you

mjferg wrote:

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I love reading your posts and I have been saying,REALLY God!!I am not happy with the hand I have been dealt and now I have to do the work to fix all this crap!BUT,I am a survivor and I find ways to continue,I guess.

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 LOL...sounds like me  "REALLY G_D"......and yep...the hand i was dealt a lot of times sucks.....and just call me the "crapola corrector" ...and u bet!!! We ARE survivors and I, like you, just keep finding ways to continue.......glad you are here.......BTW your posts are cool, too....this is a good group....glad U R part of it.....

grateful2be wrote:

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Rosie: Two questions to which I don't need a response: Do you think the women who come to meet you on the board might be your HP coming through us to greet you with our appreciation, our tenderness, our care for you? If there might be a part of you that can entertain that possibility, could that be one of the ways your HP is involved in your life?

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 ((((((((((C))))))))))))  No..you asked so i need to "woman up" and answer.......Question #1, is a very real ,  WOW, reading it again,  YEA, that very well COULD be...i mean we are ALL spirits...ALL of the great universe....ALL parts of the Creator/creation...so why NOT come through other people to show love for me????   This is REALLY profound....Like HP using you all to love me??  in a way that i would see??? respond to????  Catherine this makes a LOT of sense.....I mean it does...Really....like in my face to face life, I am not really a "people person"  not a "hang out" type of person...I'm reserved...Selective...Extremely cautious and slow to give my affections, much less my trust, but the ones who HAVE my trust/love, etc., they truly love me...they show it all the time and I show them, its not one sided...how many times has my recovery mate who has bi-polar, depression, anxiety, PTSD , how many times has she said to me  "Rosie, when i need u the most, you call me....." like i get this "prompt"  to "CALL S....she needs you"  and S answers the phone and she thinks omg,  here you are............so YEA, what U R saying makes sense....I always tell the universe that i love being of service to other creatures, respecting mother earth, and you guys know how i fight for children, animals, old folks, disabled folks...how i absolutely grieve when i see a case of abuse to a vulnerable....its like a part of my heart is torn off.......Catherine you BET i am gonna think about what you said.....I said I would be open and i was sincere.....This really  makes sense..................Thank you Catherine

grateful2be wrote:

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You are loved, Rosie, and I'm glad you are choosing to continue the work of recovery in whatever way works best for you.

I, too, got that card and fortunately am too lazy to drive up to Sam's Club in my area. I did, however, order not one but two pair of water shoes for aqua yoga and water exercise. Did I need two? No, but I liked the blue and I liked the pink, and had to buy each color from a different supplier. God help me and my prime Amazon account. I was concerned about my daughter and decided to buy myself the shoes as I waited to hear how she was doing with an infection she's developed. So, even in retail therapy, you're not alone. If we lived close together, we could plop in front of the TV and eat some ice cream together, too. If the Golden Girls could do it - so can we.

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 LOLOL......I love pink, myself  OH and pastel yellow....pastel peach....have to laugh about the water shoes...I would have done exactly the same....hahahahaha.....and i am on amazon, too....i should have stock in that place...... yep, good old instant feel good/retail therapy.....hope daughter is ok now?? she doing better???? sending her healing energy.............and oh yea, watch TV and eat ice cream together...OH I'll bring the oreo cookies we can dunk in the ice cream.....LOVE chocolate.....in MA we had a place called "Friendly's Ice cream parlor" and they had a flavor to die for...it was a like butterscotch flavor with butter crunch candies in it??  omg...I had to get the triple dip.....best ice cream i EVER ate............You are too cute xo

"N" just gotta relate this story as it is connected thru your Indian/First Nations People heritage.  You don't have to look farther than that in order to come face to face with your Higher Power.

I was at a home group Monday Night AFG meeting and as the meeting closed the person who volunteered to close it from the week before suddenly balked and expressed to me that he could not close the meeting the usual way with the Lord's Prayer because he was not Christian and didn't believe in the Christian definition.  I wouldn't and couldn't tell him what to do and he told me he was a Blackfoot Indian from the North Dakota Nation and having no idea what to tell him I suggested that he close the meeting with an appropriate Blackfoot prayer.  His name was John and he started his prayer like this, "Oh Great Creator Father of the universe ..."  He went on to describe his Creator Father in terms of all that inhabited the skies and walked the face of the earth.   What happened to me when he spoke this prayer.  Frist off I was aware of witnessing a "conversation between this Blackfoot, John and a Higher Power who was face to face with him and I was stunned by it as I felt that G o d  was there listening to an affirmation from one of his creations who was expressing gratitude.  I will never forget that night ever because it opened the doors and took away the mist from the sight to this former Catholic man who was born a Hawaiian National and handed his G o d belief thru the experiences of others generationally.  I returned home in 1993 as a consequence of a conversation I had with the understanding of my Higher Power back then and after coming home discovered the ancient Creator Father from inside my own culture.  First Nation peoples and the indigenous peoples of the world have an innate understanding of the Power which created even before the written word and which/who was passed down thru the spoken memories of our ancestors.  The name of my Higher Power is Akua (just for me in my culture)  I can see and touch and nurture what Akua has created and I can mimic Akua's principles as I was asked to when I first found Al-Anon.  I had a God Box in early program which wasn't to put God into and to put me into so that God could confine and hold me and my concerns so I could have the freedom to breathe and grow while my problems were being considered.  I cannot define how Akua will answer me when I ask for guidance.  I know that when I listen that is the condition I must be in to hear what is said if something is said and I must keep and open mind because often the answer or solution comes metaphorically and/or from within another thought force.  HP's responses are very different than mine and always work where mine do not.

Go back into your culture and talk with your Creator Father.    (((((hugs)))))   

Hey ((((((((((((((((Catherine)))))))))))))))) I am still thinking about your analogy re: HP using you ladies to give me his/her love through you all...............WOW....gonna snuggle in my nice comfy bed and meditate on that...........You really, you know how you hear something and its like you feel a "OH YEA she may be on to something" feeling in your soul????  When i read your response to me it was like  'OH YEA....never saw it that way....and you illustrate it and i am like  HP is always referred to as "love"  and so yea, it made sooo much sense....."

Just wanted you to know that i am gonna copy and past this whole thread on word and for MY USE ONLY  just keep it...keep all the great responses and THINK...meditate....on all this wisdom......If i were pure spirit and wanted to love someone, I would use a trusted mate of that person.....like my sponsor....my recovery mate....my sisters......and you guys.....if i were great spirit, I would use a trusted mate of that person I wanna love..........this makes perfect sense.........OR, anyone whom i could trust to help that person.....

I remember one time a fellow "boardie" on an old site i was on was contemplating suicide...she had the razor blades around her, sitting on the floor ready to do it..........out of the BLUE, I pm'd her , she popped in my head and I PM'd her in the chat thingy....she happened to hear the "blip" sound and saw me on the chat...she liked me and responded....we chatted...we chatted a LOOONG time....then she told me that she was gonna try life one more day and shared with me what my friendly little chat prevented her from doing......

it scared me...i thought "what if i wasn't there?? didnt' think about her????"   but i WAS there and I DID think of her.....Something prompted me...thinking of your post here, makes it understandable....it explains that....to this day, i think about that girl, who eventually disappearerd from our group and i wondered.....there was nothing i could do, i did not have her email, or phone or anything, but i remember sending her peace and love......

WOW...i haven't thought about that in a while...we were all in this MSN group and it had that chat thingy if a member was on and you hit their name, you could chat.....we had the board...adn the chat room and you could chat within the chat as i recall it....lots of people "parked" in the chat room, but she happend to hear my little  "blip" and stopped her plan.........that was a LONG time ago, like in 2004....maybe HP was using ME to help her???? where ever she is, i hope she has found peace.............

I guess i really need to just do a step 3 on this, take what i have learned today and work step 3 on my confusion or maybe i have this "ideal" that is just not realistic.........or maybe the involvement of HP and my expectations or ideals are not in sync.........Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to see....sorta like the slogan  "keep it simple"  i am the type..if my ironer    ( i never iron..wont' wear stuff i would have to iron)  goes cold, i am getting the tools out to take the thing apart to fix it when i really need to see if the freakin thing is plugged in.......KEEP IT SIMPLE  maybe not practicing that is what has been keeping me blind

Jerry F wrote:

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  First Nation peoples and the indigenous peoples of the world have an innate understanding of the Power which created even before the written word and which/who was passed down thru the spoken memories of our ancestors.  The name of my Higher Power is Akua (just for me in my culture)  I can see and touch and nurture what Akua has created and I can mimic Akua's principles as I was asked to when I first found Al-Anon.  I had a God Box in early program which wasn't to put God into and to put me into so that God could confine and hold me and my concerns so I could have the freedom to breathe and grow while my problems were being considered.  I cannot define how Akua will answer me when I ask for guidance.  I know that when I listen that is the condition I must be in to hear what is said if something is said and I must keep and open mind because often the answer or solution comes metaphorically and/or from within another thought force.  HP's responses are very different than mine and always work where mine do not.

Go back into your culture and talk with your Creator Father.    (((((hugs)))))   

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 you know, Jerry, I LOVED reading about your blackfoot friend..I am cherokee/shawnee and i remember reading my gr gr gr uncle Tecumseh, I am direct descendent of his great warriour sister, Star Watcher who was so powerful , it was her job to watch over and teach Tecumseh as a child...their father entrusted SW with that big job, LOL, and i remember when i went back to OK where my Cherokee/Shawnee grandaddy and the uncles, elders woudl talk and it was the ONLY time, perhaps i felt connected to any HP......Tonight i gave thanks to Great Spirit/Creator for starting this thread..confessing my confusion and my weakness, and your replies.....it felt good.....U R absolutely right in your last sentence here.....I need to go BACK into my culture and talk w/my Creator...I love how you describe your Akua.....reading your post, i was grabbing my chest and thinking "omg, this is IT...this is IT"  adn the power went off in the house....5 1/2 hours w/no electricity so i spent that time in the darkness meditating on all these wonderful replies to my SOS post which was a confession of my confusion and my losing my way and you guys replying to me......I am gr8ful my mind was open to receive this......Thank you for your beautiful reply......I am doing a LOT of RE-thinking.....here in TX there is much persecution if you don't practice the Christian way with the bible, et al, well its funny!!! I DO believe in Jesus, but through the eyes of a native, not the way these folks do.....i must look at great spirit MY way...what works for ME.......and YES....I am going BACK to my culture and I am gonna talk to Creator/Great Spirit....Just like when i was teeny child living w/grandfather and the elders....i loved their stories about Tecumseh and Star Watcher and also the stories about our cherokee side, the forced march to OK from SC  in winter of 1837-38  the traitors who sold the cherokees out to washington and how they were tried and executed in OK by the chief and sub chiefs .....oh yea, when around the sire, we were not allowed to be indians...we had to be french, and act french, etc......mom could not wear her mocassins,  I was not allowed to wear long sleeve shirts in summer or shorts b/c i tanned bronze instead of brown, i got his hair, but i got her dark eyes and her body and course thick hair....too bad she was an A....maybe i could have been close to her b/c SOMETIMES when she was sober she was nice, but she wasn't sober enough .........you are sooo right....I am "goin back to my native ways"  and to heck w/folks who disagree......................hugs of gratitude

grateful2be wrote:

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I just saw your response to the questions and since you're open to the suggestions: Could it be true that HP's heart is also torn apart when S/He sees through your eyes and hears through your ears the pain of Her "little ones" which include all the creatures and the people you have listed in your post? Is it possible that HP rose up in you to take care of that dog locked into that car when it was 88 degrees out and stood in you without bringing harm to the woman who was angry with you for looking out for her dog? Could it be that your HP invited you with that card to go to Sam's and help workers earn a living so that their children and their children's children could eat? Could that also be a way HP moves in your world? In our world?

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 YES, it could be....and YES it is possible that Grt. Spirit trusted in me to help that dog in distress....I do believe that this is VERY likely, after thinking and meditating on what u said......and YES, it COULD BE  Creator giving me that card so i could use the crap out of it an stock up on stuff for me, my pets and yea, I "smoked" the credit card, but ya know??? I didn't go nuts....I really did get stuff on my list and now i can sit back and use/eat my purchases and very little will i need at grocery..just my soy milk for my cereal and my shakes....got stocked up on stuff I NEED and everything you are saying....My mind is very open to and YES...all of what you said "COULD BE"   tonight while sitting in the dark, i did give thanks to Mishe Moneto,  (shawnee for great or divine spirit)  who has NO human attributes or gender and not personified, however my elders did communicate with Mishe Moneto or great/divine spirit......

I was comfortable in OK and in CA where my EX and i lived where i was free to practice my spirituality native american style...then i come to TX, the bible belt and i want to fit in and not be persecuted and bc i am open minded, i tried to embrace their concept and it just did not work for me, then the divorce, then the horrendous work and pain of recovery and hardship that followed, I felt abandoned by Creator aka Great spirit....I was told over and over that unless i went only the Christian way, i would be not only abandoned but punished /chastised by this christian god and i would burn in hell....well i thought i was already in hell a lot of times and to get more??? and no rest from it???? .....my circumstances reflected it so i "bought" what they said....thus my growing dislike, distrust and distancing myself from ANY thing referring to G-d or HP......and  i just could not embrace a male gender, hard fisted god that they described....

thinking of all your replies, some how i jumped the guard rails of my spirituality....i lost my simple native american way of spiritual approach....i lost my concept of Creator being of love, peace, healing, harmony , etc...

I am so glad i confessed my fears, confusion, discontent of HP on this board....EVERYONE of you who replied and reached out to me had a golden nugget of wisdom for me to say "OH YEA"  and to think about......

somehow i lost my way....you all pointed out the way back...i am , as Jerry said, going back to my culture adn gonna talk to MY creator/great spirit, MY WAY......

I feel a sense of peace....my spirit feels peaceful and I am going back to my simple, native american way of spirituality....tonight i burned some sage and thanked Creator for all of you and for using all of you to help me find my center and my focus......Yea, i will have ???S the rest of my life, as to WHY so much suffering?? why so much hardship??? why is man allowed to be so cruel and ugly to the other humans and animals???  but maybe i am not to know WHY,  but WHAT can i do in my little universe to help ease that...to help the children, animals, and the vulnerable ones and to come here and share and touch lives, hopefully, in a positive way.....when i am in "know" mode i am in dangerous territory...when i am in "learn" mode, I am within the "guard rails".....lately i was in "know" mode....I must remind me to stay in "learn" mode,  Yes!! it is ok to "know" how to take care of me, work the steps and slogans , do a good job at work,  do my daily human things, but in the spirit realm, i need to be aware that i must be in "learn" mode so as to stay open, teachable and reachable so i can recycle that to those who need help, too

I hope this post made sense, i am tired...its 2:30 am, and time to return to bed............thank you sisters and brother for helping me see these ways that i had lost my way.....

I feel the same way as Grateful just expressed.  I see a deeply spiritual being in you.  Living where you do, being who you are, experiencing what you have experienced would make one extremely confused.  From where I am sitting, the confusion is clearing, making way for a beautiful light.

I can only submit that the word "God" for me means..."Get Out Defects!" or "Good Orderly Direction"  Both indicate a lessening of Ego.  I believe and have faith in a lot of things, both of a spiritual nature, and of a human nature.  I find it hard to believe that one could exist, or have sufficient value or meaning without the other to reflect from.

I spoke with a young woman long ago who was struggling with the whole Higher Power concept.  The turning of one's life and will over to an invisible entity called God, defined as a "Him", after years of abuse as a child and as a adult.

I simply asked her if she believed there were positive and negative influences or energies in the world?  She agreed she did believe in that.  I asked her, if she felt she wanted to be a part of either of them?  She said she of course would want to be a part of positive energy, opposed to negative energy.  I asked her if she would be willing to allow herself to be a vessel through which positive energy could enter, and leave... accept and distribute... receive and release... and in doing so, she would be a contributor to that universal power?  That collectively her light would add to the light provided by other positive influences in the world?  She smiled, ... "I think I just found a Higher Power that I can turn my life and will over to".  I asked her to elaborate.  "The light of positive energy exist with or without my participation, but with my light added to it, it is a little brighter and has more power, for both myself and others" I can trust and have faith in that power, and thus turn my life and will over to it without all the dogma attached to what I was struggling with."  My reply was simply.."Good Girl!" and I walked away.  

Keep it simple, Easy does it... I found I don't need to understand or examine everything or figure it all out... just become willing to participate as a part of the universal goodness.  Also, and lastly, I am a abuse survivor.  I had to come to a place of accepting that God doesn't interfere with human will, any more than God interferes with gravity.  Not even when it harms others.  What God or the Universal power does is provide a internal place of warmth, time, peace and comfort so healing can take place.  And from the most wounded come the worlds greatest warriors for justice for the vulnerable. These I call God's peeps... Angels.  You are one of them in my eyes.

Just my two cents worth...  Rose, I think you are on the right path... just stay the course and let the universal laws show you God (as you come to understand).

John