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This is just a rant. Again. I am absolutely sick of AH and his procrastination. He is helping daughter with a school project. I asked him to help her with it 2 weeks ago. So, he is working on it at the last minute of course. Doesn't surprise me. He tells me "if worse comes to worse, she can turn it in the next day." NO she can't!! I remindEd him I told him about project weeks ago. He says she had so many other things to do that he hasn't been able to help her. That's BS. I made sure she was with him 3 days after school this week plus this weekend. There were at least 2 days they didn't even work on the project. I reminded daughter to work on it too...it is ultimately her responsibility. However, it's really hard on a child when they have an irresponsible parent. Lesson learned again...do not ask AH to help her with big projects. Hopefully when she comes home in a few hours it will be done.
Procrastination causes me a lot of anxiety. Will use Al Anon tools to cope with this.
Interesting thing I just read online. Bill Wilson said "Sloth is a 5 syllable word" ( procrastination). I just learned that procrastination is one of many symptoms of alcoholism. One reason why they do it is to be rebellious. I think this is why my AH does it. He doesn't want to be told by anyone to do anything. Therefore he is a risk taker and I feel he has oppositional defiant disorder. I am exhausted just writing about this. They also end up being angry with others when they are the ones at fault.
As for me?? I went to a great dog park today by the beach. Was really nice.
-- Edited by Newlife girl on Sunday 5th of October 2014 09:02:33 PM
Nlg, these symptoms that alcoholics have are often the same symptoms we have too. Alanon is not about looking at the faults of another person, its the opposite. Its about finding our own shortcomings and assets and working on those. Investing so much energy in looking at your husband, analysing him, trying to work him out takes the time away from looking at yourself. My recovery has been through looking at me. Thats where the real awareness comes in and its much more interesting and beneficial.
I hear you elcee. One thing Al Anon tells us it to educate ourselves about alcoholism. This is what I am doing. It gives me insight into things he does that confuse me. Trust me, I am not constantly focused on him. I just have some "Ah ha" moments, and this was one of them. When I look at myself, I can honestly say I do not procrastinate to this degree. Sure, sometimes I put things of for a day or so...and sure I have other issues..I think it's ok to educate people when I have an "AH ha moment". I think it's ok on this forum to discuss the A for educational purposes and look at ourselves as well.
Elcee: can you please tell me if it is against the rules to discuss something we have learned about alcoholic behavior? What I am realizing is...I used to look at my AH issues as "oh well...that's just the way he is" so when I find out certain behaviors besides drinking are symptoms of alcoholism, it helps me to understand the severity of this disease. It helps me to educate myself so I know I cannot fix it...it reminds me of how sick he is and gives me peace to know only his HP can help him..not me.
It's all good NLG - as long as you don't drive yourself batty from his disease and associated symptoms. With most A's there is so much dysfunction that you could pay attention to that it will literally make you lose sight of yourself. You have stated your larger issues with letting go, shame over a failed marriage, detachment, financial insecurity, loneliness, and your own resentments. Those things are probably more important for you to focus on than his disease.
I agree learning about alcoholism is really helpful for us, it impacted on my recovery. Focusing on the alcoholic keeps our symptoms alive and kicking though. Most of us would agree that being affected means we become controlling and obsessive. I was addicted to the alcoholics in my life so focussing on what im doing, taking my eyes off, looking at me and my symptoms, working the program helped break that pull my ex had on me.
Recovering, to me is about my symptoms. I would love to hear about your symptoms, how have you been affected by alcoholism? I dont mean the usual stories that we all have. The bad behaviour goes hand in hand with alcoholism. What im asking is are you still at the stage of him being the bad one and your the good one or can you look at yourself, in a loving way mind you. Its not about bashing ourselves, its just about seeing the truth of the situation, the reality.
I do believe that learning about alcoholism and how the "isms" are alive and well in both the alcoholic, and the partner is essential to recovery.
When I complained about the A, my sponsor always brought my focus back to myself and had me look within to see if I could identify the same defect hiding within me.
She always said "Spot it then You got it"!!! That was how this review was extremely beneficial for my recovery
I think it has a place, because I have been so utterly consumed by A's behaviour for so many years. It became my point of reference for everything..his thinking kind of WAS my thinking for a long time. My happiness hinged on understanding and trying to negotiate with his behaviours. So sometimes I find it helpful to look at the behaviour with my new "learner" eyes and recognise that I don't like it, and it has been harmful to me, and it doesn't have a place in my life anymore. It IS understanding myself in a way because responding to those behaviours has become so instinctive and consuming. It's good to be able to say "hey you know what? I don't LIKE that behaviour and I don't want it to play a part in my choices anymore".
I need to understand what I have been engaging in so I can disengage from it I guess.
If I just say "I'm not going to think about A or anything he says or does or ever said or did because I only think healthy positive thoughts now" then I am leaving some pretty messy knots inside myself. I'd prefer to untangle them, when I come across them. Not obsess over them, but not ignore them either because they won't just go away.
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
I always was confused by "is it the disease? Or is it just a guy thing?" My answer is that I - I - I - Me, Me, and ME would obsess over if it was an alcoholic thing or not. And the answer was in most things it is the amount of how much of it is done, or the degree of importance, or the amount of the time spent obsessing (for me) and whatever I was looking at in him.
With your looking at his procrastination, it is crazy how close to the wire the alcoholics want to play..... but it is also crazy how we notice how crazy they are.
It is what it is. Don't drive yourself crazy over it. Protect yourself from it..... yes, you do have to identify it before you can protect yourself from it.
Nlg, why are you asking me if its against the rules, what are you trying to say? Why dont you just say it out loud for everyone to hear? You dont value anything I have got to say and im sick of it. Stop making out im something im not. Im not putting up with it any longer.
Elcee what I am trying to say is that we all need to write about what is on our minds and in our hearts. Al anon does tell me to learn about alcoholism. I understand the focus is on me in Al anon. I have talked here many times about my disease in coping with my AH. I am becoming less and less obsessed about what he does. I just feel criticized by you in how you write. Maybe it's not coming across the way you think it is. I don't know. I tried to explain to you privately that I was extremely angry last night because I am the primary parent for my daughter and I had to deal with AH not finishing her project with her when it was already 10pm on a school night. Instead of going off on him, I came here to vent about it. It prevented me from wanting to choke him to be honest!! So, I feel as though you don't understand that some of us come here to work on ourselves, but we also come here to rant about the A who might still be affecting us on a daily basis! It helps me cope! No matter what I do for myself, no matter how hard I work on myself, the AH will always be in my life, unfortunately, because we have a child together.so...how has the disease affected me? Let's look at me now. I have some PTSD symptoms from living with an alcoholic, I have depression and anxiety, I feel ashamed for having 2 failed marriages and 3 daughters who have losers for a father. All because of ME!! All because I LOVE to ignore red flags with each man I married. I stayed in a marriage for way too long hoping he would change. I am Have been weak and ignorant. Finally, I am becoming strong because I have been in Al anon and decided to leave his ass!! I've been through multiple episodes of cops being called to my house and yelling in front of kids. So now I am changing my life. I posted this to talk about how much procrastination bothers me. I procrastinate very little, so I will not put myself at his level. I am no longer a doormat. It's as if you want me to not mention a thing he does that affects me and my child. I have been to multiple meetings where people just need to vent. I will not tell myself oh I shouldn't mention he is a terrible procrastinator, because I might be too. I guess I have it wrong? I don't know. We all have a story to tell. I use the program tools...progress not perfection.
And yes, I admit I have been at time extremely obsessed with his behavior. But I am working with my sponsor and learning how to look at today...not yesterday or tomorrow. I accept he will probably never get a job, I will lose my house and I am getting a divorce. I just sit back in awe of it all is really what it is. It's just such opposite behavior of what I would do.
NLG I appreciate your share and clarification. I am sorry that there seems to be confusion regarding the sharing ES H. It is sometimes difficult to convey intent while posting to the Board. At meetings where there is NO CrossTalk it is clear that a person is permitted to share without suggestions, advise and choose what ever topic they need to speak about
On the Board it is different, as we invite others to comment on our shares Since we are all dedicated to working the Al-Anon program , and know that treating each other with courtesy and respect is an important principle of Al-Anon, I believe all our intentions are honorable and should be based on Al-Anon philosophy.
Just recently a member, who had been away for a time posted a share that she was upset over the advise giving on the Board. She felt that only alanon tools and principles should be used to respond to shares. Many objected to her posting.
I have seen other members just wanting to vent on the board and they have clearly stated that they did not want any direct comments on the share. That seemed to work well for them . Please keep coming back
Also...here are some of my defects: anger, whining, obsessing, fear, low self esteem, controlling behavior, etc etc etc
Hot rod...I think what I should do is just ask for what I need when I share. Sometimes that's just a friendly reply that says " I get it. I've been there" this is why I asked Elcee should I not even mentioned things my AH does that drives me insane? There are ALOT of people on here that just talk about their experience with the A. If I do that,I'm usually follow it up with a comment about what I've done for myself...like I mentioned I took my dog to the beach to get my mind off the A. I also post here to keep my anger in check. Maybe I need to find another forum?
I am not sure what the Alanon stance is on "venting." I do know that if the crap hit the fan in my life, I would safely vent about it in the rooms and on here. BUT - I also know that at some point it all comes back to me. I have to be the one to work the steps on my issues. No matter what anyone else says or does or how they treat me, I am left with how I'm going to deal with it. If I let venting turn into complaining, that is just going to bring me back down. Not saying you complain here, but whenever anyone asks "What is your part in this?" or if they say "He/She is going to do (insert behavior), what are you going to do?" it is not meant as a criticism or an attack. At first I did not like this part of AA and/or Alanon because I would be like "What is MY Part in his BS?! None! Didn't you just hear me? HE is the one that does that not me!" So yeah...it's challenging and sometimes I want to slap people that ask what my part in certain issues or problems is, but I know it's not meant to be negative or even if it was, I'm not trying to perceive it that way.
In Alanon, we keep the focus on ourselves and not on our As. There really isn't in meetings I've attended the venting we do on MIP. Usually, it has been my experience in Al-Anon that I reach out to individual members or to my sponsor when I need to vent. Generally, the member or the sponsor does find a way to help me focus on me and not on the A.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 6th of October 2014 03:45:38 PM
I try to remember that everyone is here because something in them was broken and al-anon is helping them get well. I anticipate I will be growing and learning and working this program for the rest of my days because it's the only kind of thinking that makes any sense out of the mess I started out with.
Sometimes I say stuff that triggers people's isms, sometimes they say stuff that triggers mine. Learning to not react to what another person seems to think about me is a huge part of my journey, within al-anon as much as outside of it... I'm not very good at it yet, but I'm getting there.
If people didn't share about the A in their lives and how it affects them I would feel like an alien here because sometimes it is so completely freaking insane, and if it cant be understood here, then where else? I like feeling safe to do that, and I like being gently reminded that I have every right to feel bad, but I can also choose to work at feeling good.
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
I am not sure what the Alanon stance is on "venting." I do know that if the crap hit the fan in my life, I would safely vent about it in the rooms and on here. BUT - I also know that at some point it all comes back to me. I have to be the one to work the steps on my issues. No matter what anyone else says or does or how they treat me, I am left with how I'm going to deal with it. If I let venting turn into complaining, that is just going to bring me back down. Not saying you complain here, but whenever anyone asks "What is your part in this?" or if they say "He/She is going to do (insert behavior), what are you going to do?" it is not meant as a criticism or an attack. At first I did not like this part of AA and/or Alanon because I would be like "What is MY Part in his BS?! None! Didn't you just hear me? HE is the one that does that not me!" So yeah...it's challenging and sometimes I want to slap people that ask what my part in certain issues or problems is, but I know it's not meant to be negative or even if it was, I'm not trying to perceive it that way.
Thanks for clarifying. I will admit to being very sensitive lately. I can handle the way some people respond to me, and sometimes I can't handle other responses. I will try to speak less of the A. I just find it interesting that my AH is not one of a kind...that he has a disease that encompasses many problems. I guess I am starting to see the light regarding that.
I try to remember that everyone is here because something in them was broken and al-anon is helping them get well. I anticipate I will be growing and learning and working this program for the rest of my days because it's the only kind of thinking that makes any sense out of the mess I started out with. Sometimes I say stuff that triggers people's isms, sometimes they say stuff that triggers mine. Learning to not react to what another person seems to think about me is a huge part of my journey, within al-anon as much as outside of it... I'm not very good at it yet, but I'm getting there.
If people didn't share about the A in their lives and how it affects them I would feel like an alien here because sometimes it is so completely freaking insane, and if it cant be understood here, then where else? I like feeling safe to do that, and I like being gently reminded that I have every right to feel bad, but I can also choose to work at feeling good.
I agree with you totally. The A can cause insanity...and we can talk about it but I know I also need to use Al anon tools to cope.
In Alanon, we keep the focus on ourselves and not on our As. There really isn't in meetings I've attended the venting we do on MIP. Usually, it has been my experience in Al-Anon that I reach out to individual members or to my sponsor when I need to vent. Generally, the member or the sponsor does find a way to help me focus on me and not on the A.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 6th of October 2014 03:45:38 PM
I guess I go to meetings with a lot of venting...which is usually followed with the tools they used to cope with the issue. That is what I am trying to do here
Our experiences of meetings are very different. That is very interesting to me.
At mine, newcomers might vent about their As for awhile, but for the most part our members share their e/s/h based on the Step, Slogan or Topic for the meeting. Generally, we just share how it was for us and how it is now or what we've learned in our recovery process. Sometimes, people refer to their qualifier or their A but only as it relates to how we used to think about something or behave and what we've learned that works better for us now. We don't share on what the A is doing or not doing in meetings very often. Generally, I don't even know the relation of the qualifier to the speaker because the A is seldom referenced.
In my home meeting, there are still a few people who vent a lot. I am actually getting better at not doing that. I have been going to other meetings to experience more ESH. I am going through major life crises right now and I appreciate coming here and just being heard. I am realizing more and more I can't whine as much as I want. But the reason I do it is so I can help control my anger over the situation by coming here. I should journal more than air my dirty laundry in public.
Focus on self with this crazy making disease is difficult and for me was impossible. I learned that I just can't live with it and I can't focus on it either for very long. I truly had to "get away from all things alcohol" as Jerry has often said and that included spending much time with either of my As and removing myself from what they were doing or weren't doing. It was helpful to me to journal, too. I could get things out of my head and onto paper and that helped me make some big shifts that were necessary for me. Sometimes, I could see where I had focused my attention better that way and I'd see what I could change and what I couldn't change, too.
I remember the first time I actually shared about something that had nothing to do with myAW. It was a few months in. And my wife was in recovery and not causing much chaos. I was pretty happy when that happened, I noticed it and mentioned it in my share.
Go easy on yourself, you will rant for awhile while this takes hold. I have seen much growth from you in the past few months, you should feel safe to rant here some as well. You will look back someday and realize how little you talk about him, but for now you are still going through some painful growth.
And of course we will continue to point out when you take the focus off yourself :)
NLG I personally find it more beneficial to share what i am thinking than to journal it. That's just me...when i know people are listening I sort of listen to myself more and hear my own words and then I can grow from them. When I journal I tend to just bash out my ugly thoughts and then forget about them because they aren't nice and I'm not sure what to do with them. Some of those feelings are pretty hard to feel on my own, that's sort of the point to sharing in a safe place? You don't have to keep the ugly feelings a secret and they feel less ugly when you put them out in the light?
To be honest I haven't thought that you vented too much until the topic came up in this thread. I still don't. If everything you posted started out like this thread then maybe, but it isn't. You share about lots of stuff and you are often very positive and encouraging too. I don't think it's a big deal that you shared your thoughts about your exA's procrastinating or even that you were a little "A-focused" when you wrote it. We all have days where the A behaviour gets under our skin. Seems pretty normal to me.
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
NLG I personally find it more beneficial to share what i am thinking than to journal it. That's just me...when i know people are listening I sort of listen to myself more and hear my own words and then I can grow from them. When I journal I tend to just bash out my ugly thoughts and then forget about them because they aren't nice and I'm not sure what to do with them. Some of those feelings are pretty hard to feel on my own, that's sort of the point to sharing in a safe place? You don't have to keep the ugly feelings a secret and they feel less ugly when you put them out in the light? To be honest I haven't thought that you vented too much until the topic came up in this thread. I still don't. If everything you posted started out like this thread then maybe, but it isn't. You share about lots of stuff and you are often very positive and encouraging too. I don't think it's a big deal that you shared your thoughts about your exA's procrastinating or even that you were a little "A-focused" when you wrote it. We all have days where the A behaviour gets under our skin. Seems pretty normal to me.
The first three meetings I went to in another state, there was a lot of venting and cross-talk was very much a part of it all. And there was always at least one AA who had come to AlAnon with the express purpose, it seemed, of spreading the light andf straightening us out, using AA boot camp methods. The last meeting I let myself be run out of, a man made a sexist joke at my expense. He felt really bad, I could tell, poor rhing. But I'd already been pretty much deflated, and just couldn't take myself back there.
I think that the first time I ever heard the term cross-talk was on here.
The last meeting I attended, here, 3 years ago, there were two people who were just hurting and bewildered and they were venting. But people didn't cross-talk there. And it seemed strange to me, with my experience of other meetings, that nobody offered any comfort or suggestions. I wanted to say, "Let him lie there--maybe a cow will step on him and he'll figure it out!" Or, "If he is that well off, get a lawyer and find out what you'd have to work with!" Or even, "Oh I'm so sorry you are going through that, and things can get a whole lot better." But I chewed trhe insides of my cheeks and said northing. And I realized that the woman with the most recovery didn't vent or mention that there was an A in her life. She spoke in such generalities that I didn't pick up on much but that she seemed very serene.
There was a sad back-story to that meeting., It's in the daytime, mostly older women, very few of them, and most of them drive from the next town, even the one with the very ill husband, because a different group of AlAnons has kind of taken over the meeting there and they "just want to talk about sex all the time" and these women aren't comfortable with that and feel powerless to change things, apparently.
Not everybody is lucky enough to find a sponsor right off, and it seems to me that on here, for instance it could be a real relief to be able to say "This is happening to me," and hear back, "We know what you are saying." And people on here are so good to give support and to model growth and recovery and after the member gets help and her life improves, and even during the time she is learning to cope, she gives support to others.
And that is just my opinion and as is obvious, I am not at all well-schooled in how things should be done. Just how it feels to me.
I love us,
Temple
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It's easy to be graceful until someone steals your cornbread. --Gray Charles
