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Giving and taking has been on my mind quite a bit! I have noticed that it seems I do an awful lot of giving and doing. These thoughts came to me after the weekend visit with my AH at the sober living house. During the course of our discussion he indicated that he was sad I wasn't sending so many letters to him each week anymore. I looked at him and started laughing and said "Don't you remember what I always say, it's one of my favorite old sayings my Mom and Grandma always said, You get what you give!" He didn't like that and proceeded to tell me how he is so busy all the time he just can't find time to write letters and I should understand that. I guess....but you got hours and hours of time on your hand to call, visit and social with your housemates and the Alumni that constantly drop in.
In a conversation with my daughter she mentioned that she has always noticed that he is never willing to "sacrifice" anything for our relationship. I had asked her what did she mean and she said well think about it Mom, he has never given you anything for your b-day, Christmas, Valentines Day, Anniversary and his excuse was always that he was broke, only had twenty for himself, was in recovery. She then said and what is all this about him not able to ask permission for you to do stuff with him, but he sure can find ways of getting permission for all of his stuff. She said even when he is using or not he can't ever seem to help you when you are sick, down, help with your family nothing. She made a great point.
I feel kind of selfish because I am not grateful for the 2 or 3 hours I see him on a weekend, I am not ecstatic that he says he is doing great in recovery. I guess it's because I am tired of shouldering all of our marital stuff by myself, tired of having to flex to his schedule. Giving and taking is a huge part of a relationship for me and I have just been keeping tally so to speak on all the giving and doing by me and then looking at his and it's so lopsided its pathetic. I have to figure out or find a way to give less I think or I am worried whenever we try him having home visits it will end up an epic fail!
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Linda
Don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will have it's own worries
Dear Linda, Your daughter sounds like a very wise, observant , honest young lady. Being kind, generous and giving with no thought of return is an important asset.
Knowing that honoring the person you love on special occasions is very important. Expressing your disappointment if you are not acknowledged and drawing a boundary for future gifts essential . Taking care of yourself and not making your needs invisible essential.
Betty, are you saying if our A repeatedly don't acknowledge special occasions, that we should make that a boundary? Because my thinking has always been, if the jerk can't bother to get a card or a gift, I'm sure not going to beg for it or be upset over it.
I guess I'm still in a place where I don't have any compassion for A because he never has any for me. He gets to live his life free of responsibilities and I get to live mine being both Mother and Father, housekeeper, gardener, etc. etc.
I know alcoholism is a disease but I cannot find it in myself to have empathy for A and I cannot bring myself to ask him to do anything nice for myself or my kids. That would be giving him power over me. Actually, these are conversations and arguments we used to have years ago. Nothing ever changed. He maybe would be attentive for a day or two but that was it. Back to sitting in the shop drinking a 12 pack every night while the kids and I live our lives without him.
Speaking from my own experience, I made all my wants, needs ,desires invisible so that I did not become hurt by the behavior of the A. That was part of my tools of denial of my feelings and pretending all was fine.
These tools did seem to keep the peace at the expense of myself. He still had power over me because I pretended I was fine and happy when I was angry, disappointed and full of self pity and fear.
Being able to verbalize my disappointments, wants and needs in a relationship is very important. When my hubby became sober he was startled about the many issues I held resentments over because as he noted: "You never said anything and I thought it was OK with you". Lesson learned.
No need to "Fight and argue "about a subject as I have found it is better to respond differently in the future. If I do not get gifts from someone, I would say:" I understand that exchanging gifts does not work so let us not buy gifts for each other in the future", and then do so and let go of the anger, resentment and self pity .
This is my opinion take what you like and leave the rest
Flower - Underneath the drug using, there is still a hugely self-centered emotionally retarded manchild. That is the nature of addiction. I feel you pain. I know first hand that when you can't handle your own emotions and are ready to freak out and use over the stupidest things, there is very limited ability to focus on others needs in relationships.
Anyhow, I do understand and totally get how frustrating this would be...Kind of like "Ok...You are sober. So when do you start acting like a grown up?" I wish there was a definitive answer for that. Some progress faster or slower and, as you know, some relapse.
This is your journey so it's up to you if you want to wait around to see if emotional maturity kicks in for him or not.
It helped me to make a list of my needs, wants and desires from a relationship. It was an eye opener for me. I rarely expressed them to anyone, so I took responsibility for not saying what was so for me. And I began giving to myself and it felt good. I must have missed out on the guilt gene, because I rarely felt guilt with what I gave to me.
Your husband may be giving all that he can, he may always be like a 16 year old boy. That might be the truth....can one have a happy marriage with a 16 year old?
I did share my wants and needs with my x and with other active As. Their answers to my requests was always "no." As a person with codependency issues, I started asking myself why I continued to give in one way relationships or why I chose to give so much. The answers to my questions helped me know the next right step to take for me. I also attended CODA meetings in addition to Al-Anon meetings and Melody Beatty's "The Language of Letting Go" was and still is a big help to me. I could bless them (after I went through a grief process) and move on to other relationships that were more life giving for me. I learned that it isn't my job to give and give and give. It is my job to look at my motives and to move on or to change what I can change in me. I want to piggyback onto Paula's share that my 15 year old grandson does give and it matters to him how his Mom is feeling or what his Nana is experiencing. He is a teen but he is also very aware that there are more people in his life than him. I don't know that all teens are totally self-absorbed and I do know that as loving as this boy is - he also isn't anywhere near being able to be husband material. He still has a ways to go toward manhood.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 07:20:30 AM
I believe that the discussion is important in an equal partnership. I must point out that even a very young child should understand that reciprocity is essential in a relationship . They learn that in the sandbox.
Alanon has taught me to keep the focus on myself, utilize program tools and to stop trying to analyze a person or situation. I believe that if a person has no money I would be doing them a favor to not exchanging gifts so that they are not put in an embarrassing light .
I have to agree, I no longer want to argue, plead or dwell on the fact that I recieve nothing from certain people to whom i have given and given and given. But when I pretend I don't care I feel really uncomfortable, as though I am betraying myself. It doesn't matter what the other person thinks really but I feel much happier when I state it calmly and simply "I don't feel comfortable giving x, y or z to you any more because I don't feel it is valued", (or reciprocated or whatever). For me stating my truth calmly and then moving on is very empowering, a big contrast to the way I used to go about it (being silent and resentful).
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Thank you all for your E/S/H. To clarify it's not about a physical gift but coming to understand something really profound about me. I give, give, give to this man, my support, compassion, empathy whatever it is. This is a behavior I need to put into check. I am coming to learn more and more about his emotional maturity level being that of a teenage boy (thanks Pink). I have to learn to let expectations about how I see our married life working go out the window and take a look at how it is every day and only one day at a time. It is frustrating to love an addict, love an addict who is in and out of recovery and waiting for some kind of growing up to be done. It's his journey to make and I have to keep reminding myself it's not mine, only mine is mine.
Betty, I am using the tools of Al-Anon as well right now to explore this and what I feel could be a character defect in myself. I have done the hide my wants, needs, desires etc. and pretend to him it's ok, but really it's not and that builds hurt and resentment for me which of course I project onto him. I think you are right, this very well can be an issue of setting boundaries for myself.
Meliss - I am done pleading, arguing my point of view and am getting better at saying things like you state in a calm, matter of fact tone. It throws my AH for a complete loop and he pulls out all the stops to get me to take the bait and argue, I am getting much GOODER and not being hooked.
Bottom line is I need to focus on myself and be my own best friend first, satisfy only me, make myself happy and anything outside of that is icing on the cake. I love you all so for always being here and helping, helping and helping more. Thank you!
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Linda
Don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will have it's own worries
Flower, it may be more helpful to take your eyes off him and focus on yourself. If hes in recovery and your not then im not sure of the success rate. Its like your both on different wavelengths. He may be learning ways of socialising with other housemates in a new sober way, this should help him function when hes back in the normal world. He may be learning to look after himself in a healthy way for the first time and that can seem selfish. His sobriety has got to be the most important thing in the world to him. Otherwise you, family, job life really is over. Its literally life and death for them.
Maybe its about looking at what you want. Do you want a sober, more mature, healthier man that hopefully hes working on to become, well isnt that what rehab is helping with? If you really want your relationship then maybe your job is to get as healthy as he may be getting in order for you both to understand self care and responsibility better. His first job is to look after himself, thats what hes getting taught if hes in aa. If your in alanon you will be learning this too. Then the whole give take thing is more equal and if its not you will know how to step back and get the focus on yourself.
Your resentment and unhappiness comes through in your post, thats your own doing, and its yours to fix, not his. I think that sounds amazing and if someone said that to me pre alanonmi would think they were nuts but its so true.
Thanks el-cee, I have taken my eyes off him quite a bit as he has been in the sober house 5 months now and we had no communication for 3 of those months. We are on different wave lengths, we are on different maturity levels and emotional maturity levels. He isn't any where close to functioning in the normal world as he doesn't really take care of himself, he is told what time to get up, what time to leave for work, what time he is to be home from work, how to participate in his groups, what he can and cannot talk about with his counselor, what activities he can do like going to movies on Sunday which they all sleep through, when to eat, when to clean his room, what page in the BigBook to read, what worksheets he needs to do in order to complete his step work, tell him to not worry about any of his responsibilities like obtaining his Drivers License when it's time to renew, paying his mortgage, his motorcycle etc. I don't see much getting better in the face of the real world, only living in the sober house and following those rules. Socializing 24/7 with the "guys" is great, but no one seems to be looking at the entire bigger picture here, he won't have drunks and addicts around him 24/7, a house monitor telling him what, when and how to do things when he gets home, and I sure as heck am not going to fulfill those shoes. It's not my job to.
His first job in his entire life has been to look after only himself, that's what gets him in trouble all the time with his Me, Me, Me attitude. Everyone in the normal world has been put through the wringer with his ME attitude and pretty much is worn out and sick of hearing about his needs and what he has going on, what his feelings are, what his life is about. Sometimes you just go to the hot burner one to many times on the stove and then you finally get it, touch it and you will get burned. I always thought it was about giving away what you have learned to others that suffer like you.
I have major concerns with this latest recovery because it is under the watchful eyes of the court and if he doesn't do it, he goes to jail. So being honest with myself and knowing how he is, I would guess it's more of a threat then a true wish to be sober. I may be coming through as resentful and unhappy, but I am really not. Honestly, today he asked me if I was still waiting for him to come home again and wasn't I excited. I told him no not really, I have my own life now that you haven't been involved in and I am not changing it just because you got sober again. I see it as a huge set up for failure for him, I told him in the world he left, the wreckage is still there although I have cleaned up quite a bit in order to save my own skin and that our relationship isn't even close to being peaches and cream and that one of the boundaries of him coming home was that we were to have had some marital counseling under our belts. That is not even acknowledged.
I am just tired of him and his recovery, that's it bottom line. I don't even believe he will stay off the drugs long after he is sprung from the house in around 2 weeks, which brings up another point. There is no plan of action for this. He says they will tell him only a day or two before he gets out and then he might come home. Really, that's nice because where am I in that plan? We have had no marital counseling, family counseling and he keeps saying that he is told his family doesn't matter at this point, he can worry about it when he gets home. So I think maybe I have anger over that and I think that is normal of anyone. He does the gig at the sober living house and they say here you go he's all better? I can't control him and his choices and I am grateful to know I for sure don't want to.
I get his sobriety comes first and it always will and I accept that, and I also accept that just as what I want to do with my life, people I want to have in my life etc. is what comes first on my list. As I have been getting healthier and looking at what I want it becomes more and more apparent that I don't want to have his immature, poor me self around me. I know though I have invested a lot of time and energy in this relationship and I do love the guy, we have had some good times together and weathered a few storms as a united couple. I just don't want to give anymore, flex anymore, accept anymore, understand anymore, be patient anymore, if feels like to me I do all the giving and get nothing back. It's on me what I do with that.
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Linda
Don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will have it's own worries
I hear you flower. The isms are hard to live with. I cant live with it, the disease of addiction. I wont live with it mainly because his isms trigger my isms. I can understand your reservatikns about how real his recovery actually is as opposed to him using it as an excuse to mentally and physically check out of his responsibilities. Learni g about what got people into true recovery means forced rehab seems unlikely, its just a means to an end. Sometimes I read the aa board here and some people there talk about being introduced to aa at rehab and it clicking for them. I hope your ah is one of the lucky ones.
I think the best you can do is work on how addiction has affected you, what damage it has caused. For me, I learned so much about myself at alanon and im still learning, now I hardly even look to see what my ex is doing. Its different, we are well and truly over but I feel free of the obsession, I couldnt stop looking and worrying about him and his life and then I realised, its my life that needs and is worthy of my time and attention. Your doing well flower, im glad your here.x
