Tradition One- conscience issue... new member to board... - Al-Anon Family Group

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Tradition One- conscience issue... new member to board...

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

What do the little icons on the side mean David?

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth wrote:
What do the little icons on the side mean David?

Aha... 'my two cents worth...' aww

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh lol thanks David!!!!!!!!!!

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

as a survivor of extreme child abuse , I found it extremely offensive to see this big quote on "addiction being a family disease" where there is a list of "duties" of the child...

like the child "MUST"

obey parent (even if that parent is a monster telling that child to do the most un-godly acts imaginable)

to love the parents (even if one parent is her offender)

Sure....spend the rest of my life struggling with this "my duties" when I never ever heard any of my sponsors or any alanon/aca/coda recovery mate TELL me it is a child's "duty" to love the wicked.....

and there is the part about "not stressing the addict" so that shoots to hell anyone trying to learn boundaries if they don't know better....oh yea, lets all walk on cracked egg shells and make a HUGE omelet of confusion and despair b/c we shall not "stress the addict" by setting good boundaries to take care of ourselves...

JUST my take....Please use what you can and dump the rest.......

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

thank god, I have had enough alanon and program under my belt so as to realize that what i am doing for me, what I DID for me was the best I could do under dire circumstances......

did I ever love him??? HECK NO!!! would I obey him when he ordered me to murder my mother by drowning her at our water front property when i was only 16 years old???? I told him to go straight to hell.........did i love her??? no, but alanon did help me to understand her sickness and even tho her actions against me were unforgivable and reprehensible, I was able to lose the hate for her....i released her onto her maker for disposition......I still have to work the steps 1,2,3 over the hate for the beast....some days i do very very good...some days its back to going through yet another memory, yet another reminder and i have to go over all the slogans and steps an sponsor work again, but I SHALL overcome b/c i am worth it and deserve to be free........

so much for doing my duty......

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh Nemesha, I completely understand now. That would be awfully difficult to hear that and in the case of abuse I think you chose the right thing for you. ((((((hugs))))))) I agree you needed boundaries that protected you so I completely understand. I would not feel safe with that statement either.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth wrote:
Oh Nemesha, I completely understand now. That would be awfully difficult to hear that and in the case of abuse I think you chose the right thing for you. ((((((hugs))))))) I agree you needed boundaries that protected you so I completely understand. I would not feel safe with that statement either.

thank you truth...i am handling this, thanks to alanon, but this was a test...seeing that...it was a test.....working my program tools and conferring with trusted recovery mates, i am "good" with me......

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

There are times and some comments I don't feel safe with either. I just try to tell myself I simply do not have to agree. Then I feel free and like I have choices. That is how I try to work through it.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth wrote:
There are times and some comments I don't feel safe with either. I just try to tell myself I simply do not have to agree. Then I feel free and like I have choices. That is how I try to work through it.

if the comment is something to the tune of e/s/h like "i had this experience and i did this" no worries.....or if they said "they felt this when such and such happened" no worries again....but to see it in an essay type format, an authoritative setting, NOT based on personal story a real personal story....nawww that is different......JUST saying.....THAT is why it is stressed here, that we keep the focus on us/ our experiences/ our feelings etc.....like one of the mods said...we are real people with real feelings and real experiences..........i am real and my pain was real......i will never ever "love" the wicked and i will be damned b4 i let anyone tell me to

-- Edited by neshema2 on Thursday 5th of June 2014 10:03:00 PM

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

I believe he said it was from his experience and he had written several papers like it. I dont agree with what he has posted or the manner in which it was posted, but I lump it with "take what you like and leave the rest". I'm not going to take much of it.

Kenny

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree with you....if that is how you feel than that is right for you. I feel happy when everyone is the expert in their own life. I am okay. You are okay and well even Jerry is okay.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

I learned this from pinkchip's post about tradition #11 basically he said and i remember this, now that he mentioned it I remember that tradition #11 is about public relations based on attraction and not promotion............something about putting forth ones own publications and calling it alanon is a violation of tradition #11 which states the program needs to remain anonymous re: press, radios, tv, and film.

also may i mention tradition #2......For our group purpose there is but one authoritya loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servantsthey do not govern. MY take??? the essay presentation kinda presents itself as being an authority figure and there is but ONE---- a loving God as we understand it...everyone else is an EQUAL servant....

Tradition #1 goes into "common welfare" as i recall it Our common welfare should come first; personal progress for the greatest number depends upon unity. I noted "common welfare" and "personal progress" and "greatest number" that means to me if many feel uncomfortable and unsafe/triggered by posts that do NOT reflect a person's real life experience, strength, hope, it kinda calls for a group conscience

i am a bit rusty on the traditions...i am glad they were brought up here b/c i need to be mindful of them

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi David I am confused over the discussion of copyright material as I understood Jerry to say he wrote the material from his own experience

The title of your posting referred to Tradition One and so with that in mind, I thought about this tradition and see that

Tradition One states" Our common welfare should come first --personal progress for the greatest number depends on unity". I do believe that alanon offers us the opportunity to have unity in diversity and that we are each responsible for sharing our ESH in order to solve our common problem.

Since it is a fellowship of equals we are not expected to follow the leader and all march to the same drum. ( not like our FOO where we were expected to all follow the same drummer and speak the same thoughts) .

All of our Traditions and Steps have been developed so that each member is given the opportunity to learn how to use the alanon tools in their own time and space. By implementing the powerful tools of the program we can learn to go within,(not look outside ourselves), find the answers for our own lives ,and develop a spiritual relationship with our Higher Power on whom we depend for guidance and strength. In order to do this we are free to use program tools, share with each other what works and trust the process.

When a member, who has been in program for many years, attempts to use his growth to instruct others on the right actions that they should take he/they go against all alanon traditioms and principles.

Asking each member to place principles above personalities is important in order to protect the unity of the group and growth for each member.
Hope you are enjoying your vacation in the USA

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree david, I cant stick censorship and it goes against the fellowship of equals, it says I have the power and you need protecting. Surely there is simething to learn from just about everything written here. We are not children in need of saving, we dont need to be made I to victims. Censorship is surely the very last resort.

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

hotrod wrote:
Hi David I am confused over the discussion of copyright material as I understood Jerry to say he wrote the material from his own experience

karma13 · Senior Member

I just want to say I agree with David it's not not good alanon to censor our members. Just my opinion once again, my voice. I also feel the way that he has been treated has gone against tradition five.

karma13 · Senior Member

I also feel like it is assumption that those are not Jerry's own words. I feel it boxes people into a black and white format to tell Jerry he has to share in a certain way. Perhaps this is the way he shares his experience strength and hope with others .Who are we to tell him it's not the right way to share? I don't like everything I hear at meetings or on boards but I can take what I like n leave the rest and I try to keep an open mind. I do however agree with Betty on how I try to give my own esh, not as advice but as my experience. I cant fix anyone else just me;)

-- Edited by karma13 on Friday 6th of June 2014 06:57:08 AM

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks David ---- I see that indicated in the other posting. Since this is a Message Board, where we comment on each others postings, not allowing disagreements would also be a form of censorship. I believe others are sharing their experience, strength and hope on his postings and are saying what they mean, meaning what they say without saying it mean.

The posting were written in such a manner as to be foregone conclusions as to how to act in given situation. These attitudes and behavior are all great responses to the disease but must be developed over time by each member as they grow in the program. "

Program attempts to encourage each member to develop self esteem and self confidence by using the slogans, steps, meetings, a sponsor to grow and change I believe that giving "how to instructions" to new members is counterproductive to the principles of the program

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you, Betty.

Karma, the black and white thinking I see is in the essays and not in the responses of the people who have invited him to share himself. He has chosen not to do that which is his right and has chosen to ignore the invitations and the honest feedback in his first post and posted yet another which to me is trying to impose his will on people who don't know him or anything about him.

What is interesting to me is how what is being said by the members of this fellowship who have been in communication with each other for quite some time and have shared themselves and the painful experiences they have gone through with addicted children or beloved spouses or as children of extremely sick and torturous people have not been considered or validated but rather corrected by a few members because we didn't play nice? We have a responsibility to ourselves to say "I don't like this. I don't trust this. Something isn't right about this." There is nothing unhealthy nor is there any violation in the traditions by saying what is true for us and saying it openly in a case like this. If the poster has been in Al-Anon for 40 years applying the program principles, I'd see more a Jerry or a Betty response or introduction from the poster. Not a top down list of dos and don'ts that simply don't jibe with my experience in Al-Anon or with Al-Anon members and then a second essay post following multiple invitations to share his experience which wasn't shared - just a list of dos and don'ts.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 6th of June 2014 07:22:27 AM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

grateful2be wrote:
Thank you, Betty.

Karma, the black and white thinking I see is in the essays and not in the responses of the people who have invited him to share himself. He has chosen not to do that which is his right and has chosen to ignore the invitations and the honest feedback in his first post and posted yet another which to me is trying to impose his will on people who don't know him or anything about him.

What is interesting to me is how what is being said by the members of this fellowship who have been in communication with each other for quite some time and have shared themselves and the painful experiences they have gone through with addicted children or beloved spouses or as children of extremely sick and torturous people have not been considered or validated but rather corrected by a few infrequent members because we didn't play nice? We have a responsibility to ourselves to say "I don't like this. I don't trust this. Something isn't right about this." There is nothing unhealthy nor is there any violation in the traditions by saying what is true for us and saying it openly in a case like this. If the poster has been in Al-Anon for 40 years applying the program principles, I'd see more a Jerry or a Betty response or introduction from the poster. Not a top down list of dos and don'ts that simply don't jibe with my experience in Al-Anon or with Al-Anon members and then a second essay post following multiple invitations to share his experience which wasn't shared - just a list of dos and don'ts.

well grateful said EXACTLY what I was gonna say.....I don't trust this..don't like this type of posting (re: the Jerry posts) and I will stand to it some one mentioned "high and mighty" and i got that same impression.......whatever the mods decide, I will accept.......I don't think my thinking is black and white....I gave my ESH as I experience things...feel things...see things....and NEVER EVER do I tell another how to work their program.......I did NOT tell anyone "how to" re: their recovery.....What bothered me was some folks asking for clarification got a "alanon closing" and that was it....also invitations were issued to poster to share his/her personal story and that was ignored...instead another essay appeared loaded with more "how to's" .....

I am going to take a page from KennyFenderJazz and take ZERO b/c I did not like any of it and therefore LEAVE ALL of what was posted.....

I know it is NOT----NEVER WAS my duty to "love" a monster who sired me who tortured me and tried to get me to "obey" his wicked requests.....its god's job to love the wicked...not mine......

Thanks Betty and Debilyn for your service

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

I too, think censorship would not be productive here unless there is blatant abuse/flaming/attacking on one members part to another member, then yea, post needs to come down to stop the flame exchanges...

In this case, I think we alanons are handling ourselves quite well, expressing our ES&H on this , the majority of us are not in favor of these "essays" and we stated so and we used alanon principles in doing so.....I got triggered by some of it and I handled it by standing up for me, by stating my es&h and my desire to NOT take any of it but to LEAVE the rest or all of it in my case....

I said what I said...didn't say it mean but meant what I said and i will not change my feelings about it.....I will "scroll on by" from now on b/c I am secure that I am working my program in a productive way, I am NOT expected by MY higher power to "love" or "obey" anyone who is wicked (in my family of origin---male parent) so therefore, i am GOOD with me and that is what counts....

my best approach to a poster who comes off with "how to's" that to me are counter productive w/out offering anything about themselves is to detach.....walk away....do not respond or acknowledge.....as with anyone who is "not a match" for me re: trading esh, I just avoid them....do not respond.....do not walk in their "sand box"....

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

As I posted a few minutes ago on the last essay post, it is necessary to keep in mind the greater good and that does not just include those of us who post on a regular basis, there is a huge community on here we don't even know about (look at all of the hits). I am not as concerned about protecting the feelings of one anonymous, instigative poster as I am providing for that community the support they need in their invisibility, to come visible and feel safe. And to teach them the proven ways of al anon, which does not include an essay on do's and don'ts based on ones conclusions through ones own filters of other peoples experiences. This is way too confusing for a new person grasping for a life preserver...

ClearTheFog · Senior Member

For my part (I'm not a big, influential poster here), I guess I don't really have time to read all threads, and if I start reading something triggering to me or something like a wall of text/instruction manual, I just click right off of it again and go to something more geared towards my growth.

If posts are deleted, we don't get to see and learn what floats to the top and what sinks (obviously "Buy cheap TVs here!" or "I earned a million bucks from home!!" posts should be deleted to unclutter things). But I'm fine with whatever the mods decide, and I appreciate all the mods' hard work.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I love reading everything that is said here. There are ways of looking at this particular thing that I never would have considered on my own. I so do appreciate seeing what folks are truly thinking here. Thank you, brothers and sisters. I, too, respect our moderators and trust what they decide even if on occasion I might not agree. I don't know the whole of everything and I believe our mods have a greater view of the whole than I do. What I also appreciate is their willingness to listen to us when we might not agree and validate our thinking even when they might make a decision that doesn't "go with my flow." It isn't about me. It is about the good of our community as a whole to whom I am extremely grateful. And it takes some really honest and humble people who have lives of their own to do the work of being moderators. I appreciate all of you on this board and I am grateful to both Betty and Deb who have said yes to the responsibility of being moderators.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I am grateful, too, Grateful smile

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Clearthefog- I have been moved by your posts. You are an important person here.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

PP wrote:
I am grateful, too, Grateful

me 2.....and Clearthefog, i like what u had to say

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes, CleartheFog, your input is valued, wise and appreciated...

ClearTheFog · Senior Member

Oh! Thank you Pinkchip, Neshema and PP! Such great quality posting here from so many of you.

-- Edited by ClearTheFog on Friday 6th of June 2014 10:29:30 AM

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

CTF: You have been a big help to me in your shares - right along with the rest of the posters listed here. You are an important voice in our fellowship and I appreciate your candor, your honesty and your encouragement and support.

ClearTheFog · Senior Member

Thank you, G2B. I wasn't fishing for compliments at all but I really appreciate the votes of confidence! This is a unique place online. Most other places are minefields of unhelpful advice at best or flat out full of rudeness.

1911A1 · Senior Member

There is a peculiar phenomenon that often seems to take place on Internet message boards, at least from what I've been able to observe over the years. It doesn't seem to matter whether the focus of a particular board is recovery-oriented, or a sports blog, car blog, mommy blog, entertainment, what have you (to say nothing about a political site). It has been my observation that over time, a group of regulars, who interact with one another numerous times day in and day out, naturally develop a sense of community and a healthy interdependence (especially important when it's a recovery site like MIP) that imparts a feeling of "home" to their given message board.

However, that same group of regulars can begin to feel a sense of ownership of that message board. Newcomers are welcomed as long as they conform to the unwritten social mores of the established membership. If somebody comes in and behaves in a way that is unexpected or contrary to those mores, it's time to circle the wagons and tell the interloper, "This is OUR sandbox...get out!"

I don't know whether "Jerry Froggie" has an agenda or not, and frankly I don't care. Step Twelve calls us to pay forward, each of us in our own way, the gift of recovery we have received. Just as the program allows us the freedom of working the Steps in our own way, each of us has our own uniquely personal way of sharing our stories and the lessons we have learned; we commonly refer to those things as ESH. I found it curious that, when a newcomer came in and began sharing in an unorthodox manner, the response was, well, more reactive than responsive.

Another poster shared a profound observation earlier today (paraphrased as best as I can remember it): "Each of us has the opportunity to practice our illnesses inside the rooms as well as outside the rooms." As has often been said, Al-Anon is made up of sick people helping one another find ways to get better, and remembering that gem helps keep me teachable, and throws up the mirror of truth when I am tempted to judge another, especially when I know next to nothing about him or her.

This program offers hope, healing, and tools for living so that we can change the things we can (my own thinking and behavior) and move, one day at a time, towards a better life. The longer I am in the program, the more I am astounded at the intentional wisdom revealed in almost every word of CAL, the slogans, and suggested meeting protocols. Chief among these is "take what you liked and leave the rest." I offer these thoughts in that spirit.

-- Edited by 1911A1 on Friday 6th of June 2014 03:36:37 PM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

i get what u r saying and i've seen it, and sometimes i concur..a lot of times i concur........ but two posts, both "preach jobs" was kinda off the charts, especially when we DID welcome him to share HIS story and HIS e/s/h and we were ignored and hit up with another "how to" manual......i was more concerned for the newbies seeing this then us older folks who handled our boundaries quite well....nobody was mean....rude.....attacking.....we just stated our feelings and discomfort at the nature of the posts and that was it.....yea, maybe i prolonged my part in it, but i learned something......i can say what i want to say and then drop it a bit sooner...that is what i learned.............oh well i said what i said, i am not taking any of it back

at NO time did i feel like this is my sandbox and newcomers beware...I love it when newcomers come...i am one of the first to welcome them, with their shaky, frightened, yet brave enough to walk through their fears and share, i love em....want to encourage and welcome.....

if i want a manuel to read, I will drag out the manuel ford made for my truck and read it.....i come here to share my REAL life, my REAL feelings, my REAL work as to the solution and i seek that.....

i learned , too, that i can use what works...dump or ignore the rest........

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you for your input, 1911A. I appreciate your view from your perspective of the same issue from different angles - all valid and all necessary to my way of thinking. Our experiences are different. The strengths we develop are often different. The hopes that we carry are different, too. I can say that I have never confronted anyone on this board publicly in the manner I chose until this past post. My motivations have nothing to do with what you believe to be true and yet I also see your right to have and to express your point of view even though it is very different than my own. I appreciate knowing what someone is truly thinking. I trust that - even when what is expressed is not true about me or true for me. Thanks for your candor.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 6th of June 2014 04:44:11 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 6th of June 2014 05:25:40 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 6th of June 2014 05:26:20 PM

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

As I said in my pm to you, we as moderators have rules we have agreed to uphold. It is part of our service to keep the board safe, and for it to be used as it's purpose.

John has worked hard on getting mip to be the wonderful family it is.What we do works.

We as mods have special abilities we can use to keep our board safe.

I always pm a person about being deleted. I also save it in case they choose to reword it.

Mip has worked for many, many years with the rules we follow.There are no invisible social things one must follow, they are all in the great post a valued member put on here, "Frequently asked questions." I have always welcomed new comers, just becuz we clean up their profanity, or remind about copyright laws, by no means, means they are not welcome!

(c:

-- Edited by Debilyn on Friday 6th of June 2014 06:25:34 PM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Debilyn wrote:
As I said in my pm to you, we as moderators have rules we have agreed to uphold. It is part of our service to keep the board safe, and for it to be used as it's purpose.
We as mods have special abilities we can use to keep our board safe.
I always pm a person about being deleted. I also save it in case they choose to reword it.
Mip has worked for many, many years with the rules we follow.There are no invisible social things one must follow, they are all in the great post a valued member put on here, "Frequently asked questions." I have always welcomed new comers, just becuz we clean up their profanity, or remind about copyright laws, by no means, means they are not welcome!c:
-- Edited by Debilyn on Friday 6th of June 2014 06:25:34 PM

Deb, you and Betty are doing a great job......i'm happy with both of you.......no worries here and i know you guys go out of your way to make a person feel welcome..............

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Am I the only one who took a quick look at the posts by Jerry Froggie and hit the back button because I perceived them as not relevant to MY recovery or written by someone who could be helped by anything I could offer, and moved on to read posts that were?

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Dunno. Maybe so, lmh.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Nope, likemyheart, you aren't the only one. Am I the only one who then started to take a morbid interest in the drama and reading these threads in spite of herself?

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.