' when the pain of living with an alcoholic gets greater than the fear of leaving them ... - Al-Anon Family Group

tortuga · Senior Member

' when the pain of living with an alcoholic gets greater than the fear of leaving them ...

SunshineGirl · Senior Member

Powerful post. Thank you for sharing you thoughts.

A lot in there I relate too, especially the fake public persona. As a child I was endlessly told how lucky I was by other to have such lovely parents! Both As. Myself and my sibs were very confused as what we saw was the unstable violent insane side of them.

My feeling is that an already existing mental illness often is then added too with alcohol. The A self medicates to ease his personality disorder, depression etc which of course then makes it an even bigger problem. So I acknowledge this and know that my loving responsibility to myself is to see this in people, and keep myself well away from them. Also not to get hooked into their drama.

I can now see the red warning flags on people, I could not before. I am very grateful for this.

-- Edited by SunshineGirl on Friday 30th of May 2014 12:08:11 AM

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

honey its the same with cheating, abusing etc. The alcohol only makes it so the alcoholic loses his compassion and his ability to hold back who he really is. a cheater and or an abuser.

When he or she is doing it, its all rage or it is to get more of a high. being an addict as nothing to do with being an abuser, the drug just brings it out in that person.

hope i made sense. Mine became a monster and I am sure would have killed me when he raged.

I am glad you are seeing you can make it and anything, even renting a room is better than living in such a horrible situation. hugs

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Debilyn can you clarify that comment?

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

does alcohol create an abuser, or is the abuser simply prone to alcohol and other addictions to deal with his own wickedness of feelings??
---------------

Alcohol lowers inhibitions and so people who lack impulse control anyway will allow their thoughts and feelings to rule them. In a moment if it looks like a good idea than it is .. fear, guilt, anxiety, shame, anger is the biggest ruler in an alcoholic/addict mind so an alcoholic abuser (I'm speaking from my experiences) will allow them to rationalize why they did what they did and choose not to take responsibility for it.

Now my question is .. why did I stay as long as I did? I saw the abuse, I knew what it was, however I continued to stay when nothing was changing and he didn't seek recovery. Yes, I can find happiness regardless if the alcoholic is drinking or not .. the reality is .. I didn't want to stay anymore it was to painful. As mine wasn't a happy drunk, .. he was mean, abusive in may ways I didn't even see in the moment. I am finding bigger clarity moving forward.

Hugs S :)

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Tortuga, good to see you

When I left our home it was because I could not tolerate the way that I was starting to think as a result of the abuse. AH sent me a text that said 'I'm not really this monster'. My first thought was 'well if it not you, then who?' I don't know why he behaved as he did, but I do know that I was close to mirroring some of his behaviour. It might have been self defence, but it was there.

I don't know the answer to your question and I'm in a similar place right now - trying not to think about it too much but definitely inclined to puzzle about what on earth was going on. I can see some dynamics in our relationship pre-alcohol that became amplified and acted out after a few years of drinking, especially when a vulnerable situation came up. It is a difficult one for me to think about because it makes me question my own judgement (perhaps not such a bad thing really!).

One thing I think I've learnt is that 'hurting people hurt people' and that includes those with low self esteem. I grew up with kind people around me and they taught me well. But even though I hate to admit it I can sense a desire in myself to lash out and hurt AH when I start feeling sorry for myself. In my limited experience AH felt very very sorry for himself!

I also think that the brain is more flexible that we assume and it can get rewired under certain circumstances - whether chemically induced or via repeated behaviour. The good news is that perhaps that works the other way around as well!

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

It goes both ways. At the extreme, a person may become abusive to protect their addiction. Abusive people are more likely to be alcoholic because of their antisocial values and the environments they come from.

There is some research on a Type 1 versus Type 2 alcoholic which might also explain this. I read about some of your qualifiers and they definitely fit that type 2 abusive, violent male type like your ex...I am sure I was the type 1:

Type 1 alcoholism accounts for about 75% of alcoholics and is characterized by the following signs and symptoms: Equally men and women and less genetic link.
◾ Onset of alcohol-related problems after the age of 25.
◾ A low degree of spontaneous alcohol-seeking behavior and alcohol-related fighting.
◾ Psychological dependence, coupled with guilt and fear about alcoholism.
◾ A low degree of novelty-seeking and a high degree of harm avoidance.

Type 2 alcoholism is characterized by the following signs and symptoms: Almost all men and a much stronger genetic link.
◾ Onset of alcohol-related problems before the age of 25
◾ High degree of spontaneous alcohol-seeking behavior and fighting
◾ Infrequent feelings of guilt and fear about alcohol dependence
◾ A low degree of harm avoidance and a high degree of thrill seeking

Type 1 alcoholics do much better in treatment and, because of longstanding antisocial behaviors and attitudes, Type 2 alcoholics usually need long-term structure to maintain sobriety (Woodward, 1998). Alcohol and all drugs trigger the mesolimbic dopamine reward system and the endogenous opioid system, which reward drinking. This is what addicts the brain and makes it impossible to stop drinking. If alcoholics stop drinking on their own, at the very least they are going to feel restless, irritable, and discontent. Only alcohol will move the patient back toward a feeling of peace.

-- Edited by pinkchip on Friday 30th of May 2014 07:31:41 AM

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you Pink and everyone else for the clarifications.

ClearTheFog · Senior Member

Gosh, Tortuga, I have no idea. But I do wish you much clarity along your way from this point forward, and about the only remotely relevant thing I can say here is that distance (time, space) will probably help you get the answers to these questions. That whole public persona business is a real crazymaker. I have been up close and personal with that one for a good decade, and now that I *hope* I'm coming out of being a willing participant/victim in that, I wonder how in the world I ever put up with it, even once. The fan club cheers still sting though (and I get to see some of this over an email account, which I can't really just delete), and that's when I really need my steps, slogans and Melody Beattie books.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

People are mysteries to me, Tortuga. I know all sorts of studies are done on folks and then often the theories are changed based on new information that is discovered. I do think that there are some people who just aren't good for each other. I don't try to analyze it anymore. I'm just glad to know I can trust myself enough to know when red flags are popping up and move on. When I was in high school, there was a very quiet boy in my homeroom. One of the few guys who would pick up a book if a gal dropped it. He never made any trouble for anybody. He would smile but kept to himself. After we graduated, gals would be found raped, strangled with pantyhose stuffed down their throats. It was that quiet, respectful and kind classmate of mine. I doubt anybody knew how seriously ill he really was and I doubt anybody could truly figure out all that led up to him acting out in such horrible ways. My x was an abuser and an A. His father wasn't. His mother wasn't. His brothers weren't. His uncles weren't or his aunts. Nobody will ever be able to explain him away to me because no school of thought fit him. I can't say he had a persona as much as he was just different in different situations with different people and for some reason, to me he seemed afraid of intimacy and hated women. And truly I don't know if that is even true. I'm just glad you are moving away from that life with somebody who was so hurting that he was hurtful. You are changing what you can and there may be things you will never know or understand about him. Fortunately, you are here today and able to talk about it. Not all women are that fortunate.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Mental abuse is a very dangerous one, for it lingers, even when the abuser is long gone. and we have to work through it. My question is:

does alcohol create an abuser, or is the abuser simply prone to alcohol and other addictions to deal with his own wickedness of feelings??

******************

very good ??? ok...my experience is this.....I used to be a problem drinker...numbing/self medicating my pain, but being abusive was never in my nature so even drunk, I never ever was abusive.....to me??? an abuser is an abuser...booze only lowers the inhibitions.....same for a cheater or a thief.......its there, anyway.....i have known many alkies who never abused...never cheated......my X AH#2 was one of them.....kind as a dove even when drunk........my drinking was symptomatic of my intense pain, when i got into recovery, i lost the desire to "self medicate/runaway/numb out" now i face my life with my program training.....

SunshineGirl · Senior Member

Further thanks for this thread. More 'aha' moments for me. About myself but also one helpful to me about AH.

I had great confusion about AH as I was constantly reading that As were abusive, loud, dirty, break things, etc. AH is not! He is a gentle person, drunk and sober.

I couldn't understand how he and I could quite happily live alongside each other within our own spaces in our home. We get together for a coffee in the daytime. Usually spend an hour together each evening. As part of working my Al-anon program, I have set up two separate apartments within the house. Both nicely decorated, each of us take pleasure in keeping our areas beautifully.

What we like and need is time on our own. We have each built a busy and active life that runs alongside each other. Separate finances, of course. I would guess we spend maybe 10% of our time together. Suits us both.

Prior to Al-anon, we were desperately enmeshed. Terribly co-dependent and sick in our marriage. We were together 24/7.

We were both active As together for some years. I was the angry, abusive one. Loud and very over the top. I used to start verbal fights. I found the underlying anger in me gradually left me after about a year of stopping pouring the toxic chemical into myself, then very strongly backed up with my recovery work. Clearing out the old buried anger from childhood.

I had no idea I would be happy with such a quiet, calm life that I now have. I had always lived manically before this. We raced around together. Insanely over-busy, then collapsing and drinking together.

I agree that alcohol magnifies the traits already within a person.

I am thriving with having my own healthy level busy life. We both now 'mind our own business'!! I wasted so much time fixating on what AH was doing, insanely trying to change him, lecturing him, trying to control him (and vice versa). I used Al-anon to make the changes to how I was, then as always happens, the dynamic round us changes. I changed so everything else did!

Whilst I realise this is not what marriage means to most people, it is right for me. I am the happiest and most content I have ever been.

Feels good to write this out.

Thanks again for the shares. It prompted me to move forward in my understanding.

-- Edited by SunshineGirl on Saturday 31st of May 2014 02:39:20 AM

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Great post, I think your questions reveal a depth to your recovery journey, working things out until they are understood and clarifyed helps untangle the connections that were unhealthy and kept it all alive. Some things, in my experience dont ever have definitive answers, they are not black and white and they become unimportant too eventually. I understand that alcoholism has symptoms like immaturity, sensitivity, low self esteem, self pity, feeling uniquely miserable and victimised etc. I had many of these symptoms too and I think unhealthy thinking leads to unhealthy relatiknships and dysfunction and chaos can lead to increasing abuse. The norms are pushed further and further in this kind of setting until it is so far from healthy that the people in it cant see the dysfunction anymore, life is just one big mess, going from crisis to crisis, reality becomes more and more blurred that denial is the only way to survive.

I think for every abuser there is a victim, 2 roles, 2 sets of responsibilities. The victim remains a victim when they believe the responsibility for it to stop lies in the hands of the abuser. I think this is only true for children and adults who are particularly vulnerable like the elderly. For me, I had to see that I played a part, I allowed it and by allowing it, it continued, I approved it and it esculated. I couldnt really see it for what it actually was, I thought it was my fault so I tried to control it with different types of behaviours. This was my part in it. I think all the ingredients that make an alcoholic an alcoholic have the potential to make them an abusive too. In a way all relationships that have an alcoholic person in have the potential for abuse, the alcoholic is not in control of his senses so how can he possibly treat those around him or her with respect?

Anyway, great question, I dont have a clear answer for you, I dont think there is one, I will continue to ponder it. Thanks.x

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Before dealing with the aftermath of my relationship with my A, I didn't know what a malignant narcissist or gas-lighting was, had always thought psychopaths and sociopaths had to be serial killers, etc. My research of different personality traits/types not only helped me gain understanding and sympathy for the person my A was; it helped me to identify personality disorders in other people as well. I have more solid footing to stand by my new-found resolve to hang back and watch how people are rather then letting them try to buffalo me with their charming words.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

el-cee wrote:

I think for every abuser there is a victim, 2 roles, 2 sets of responsibilities. The victim remains a victim when they believe the responsibility for it to stop lies in the hands of the abuser. I think this is only true for children and adults who are particularly vulnerable like the elderly. For me, I had to see that I played a part, I allowed it and by allowing it, it continued, I approved it and it esculated. I couldnt really see it for what it actually was, I thought it was my fault so I tried to control it with different types of behaviours. This was my part in it. I think all the ingredients that make an alcoholic an alcoholic have the potential to make them an abusive too. In a way all relationships that have an alcoholic person in have the potential for abuse, the alcoholic is not in control of his senses so how can he possibly treat those around him or her with respect?

Anyway, great question, I dont have a clear answer for you, I dont think there is one, I will continue to ponder it. Thanks.x

oh wow, this resonates w/me...being a survivor of child abuse, the abuse against me lasted into my adult years and further b/c i was a trained victim...i kept , (as a child there was no "allowing" b/c i was a helpless child) but as adault, b/c i was trained as victim, i kept getting victimized, abused, taken advantage of, accepting the crumbs of others, i didn't respect me so therefore did not demand respect.....thank god for recovery....i am literally living my 2nd and healthier life....i am no longer anywhere near a victim..i have strong boundaries and i maintain/defend them....noone abuses me now....i stop em dead in their tracks or even cut them out of my life entirely.......so yea, after i left the house of horrors, my abuse continued b/c i was the "victim role" and my "responsibility" was to people please out of fear of rejection /abandonment...now i don't give a damn if someone dumps me...if they don't want me??? fine...leave....its ok.... GREAT thread here....learning a lot on this

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