Really need feedback from members with ESH. Help! - Al-Anon Family Group

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

Really need feedback from members with ESH. Help!

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I would think that is not to live in the past. But of course we learn from it, the past bolony is still facts!

As we continue fw, we naturally look at what got us here.

That is A manipulation. My AH owed me thousands. He knows it.

But when he sold his truck, I had to BUY it from him. he said oh that is the past the money he owed me. oh brother.

They do not want to take responsibility plain and simple. All I see her is your As disease trying to manipulate you.

What in the world would make you want to go back?

does he have a job, paying bills, putting money away, going to AA every day, reading literature, working a program, paying things for you, sending you things? How mature is it to not be working and buying toys?

Look at him, would you marry him as is if he asked you? His habits have not changed. Sure they can manipulate and throw some stuff away, seem mommy see what I did?

give me a break. the disease is alive and well in him honey.

Its hard not to weaken as in the beginning we were in love with them! Of course we want to believe they have changed. Its great you came here to allow us to see what your emotions won't allow.

That takes courage!

Months are NOTHING. I have seen A's on program for years that are still too fragile and not ready to take on life.

When a person truly is on program, believe me you know it. its rare. hugs honey!!

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Do you think its reasonable to look forward? He wants you to look forward to eradicate the past in order to get what he wants so his motives are probably unreliable. I think Alanon teaches us to stay in the moment, the pasts gone and the future is too far away to worry about. I dont think that means forget everything you have learned about your ex and make decisions as if he was brand new. Without recovery its unlikely that he will be making the real change that takes hard work and help from like minded people. If hes not going to meetings hes showing you that hes not committed to recovery and change.
I think happiness comes from within, its too much to expect another person to make us happy, thats your job. My ex done the very same thing, cleaned up his act went to AA half hearted and then phoned me up asking for a date, saying look how much Ive changed. I said no, its over, I meant it and he quickly reverted back to show that he had not changed, he took a tantrum like a 5 year old would and I knew I had made the right decision. Hes in AA now over 1 year and he seems really good now, hes got a grip of so many things that would have gave us a decent life a few years ago, I was angry about this for a while, I felt cheated but when im in his company for more that a couple of hours I soon find out that I did the right thing. We are so different now, Im glad hes got recovery though, even if I dont benefit my kids might.x

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

He is CURRENTLY unemployed, not really sober, not really working a program, not taking responsibility, not acting like a grown up, and not bringing much to the table? What mature, healthy person needs 6 months off work to evaluate their life? That's ridiculous. One of your concerns was that his problems would impair his ability to work. So sounds like you have valid current concerns. Yeah, you are bringing up some past behaviors, but there has been very, very little time and effort to suggest current change or that those that have been made will last? Anyone truly in recovery knows amends are not accepted on our terms. His currently being manipulative and trying to sell you on change rather than showing you more and longer also doesn't bode well CURRENTLY.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

My ESH is this .. my stbax as soon as I brought up anything such as issues that had not been addressed his statement was .. that's in the past. It became a running joke between my sponsor and I .. do I really need to address this issue because .. that's in the past .. LOL. Anyway, I like what Pink said .. he's appears to be behaving in a different way and that's great .. show me the behavior change .. show me the job, show me the meetings .. show me do not tell me what the intention is .. show me.

The best thing you can do for you .. stand in your truth (I would say this would be boundaries) know what you want and know what you don't want .. in the book Getting them Sober there is extensive talk about reconciliation I believe in Vol 4 that says many people get back together way too soon instead of allowing the behavior to play itself out.

Big hugs, I would really sit down and make a pro's and con's list of what is going on .. it may sound like taking his inventory .. what I'm talking about is measuring your boundaries against what is happening .. you stated he doesn't have a job (is that something you would consider a boundary .. spouse having some kind of fiscal responsibility .. you do deserve that kind of support). You stated he's not going to meetings (another boundary .. I won't live with active alcoholism in thought or drunkenness), you have stated that you need to be heard (the interruptions to your valid thoughts and ideas, possibly marriage counseling AFTER he has a period of sobriety). You have the right to change your mind at any point and time based upon new information.

Keep coming back :)

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

This is why I come here! Thank you everyone. I am not considering going back to him at this point. My life is so much more calm not living with him. I just get confused and start questioning myself when he says these things to me. Honestly, I ignored many red flags he gave me when we got married. Now my eyes are wide open.

@Pinkchip: can you explain what you mean by amends are not on our terms? I love the way you explain your recovery and what is going on in the A mind. You have helped me so much.

I guess I need people to tell me I am being manipulated. Sad but true. And el-cee I have had the same thing happen with us. He asks me to go on dates with him and my daughter and expects more and more. I've been out with him 3 times since March. Not too bad for me and my codependency. Lol. I also have to keep my emotions in check. I sometimes feel very lonely and long just to be near him...but I don't think its him that I miss...it's the feeling of feeling wanted and loved that I miss. I know that if I gave into my hormones and emotions...I would pay the price afterwards. Trying to be discreet...but this is something I need to work on. I got with my AH in the first place because my first husband left me for another woman. I just longed for someone to want me...so I jumped from one frying pan to another. I will just say it, who care...I am glad I have stopped myself from jumping into bed with him when he has asked me to. That "good feeling" won't last and it won't change our major problems.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I know what you mean, I have felt like that too and when the loneliness kicks in I remember thinking, I could click my fingers and he would be here in a minute. That feeling passed and my higher power put situations in my path where I was forced to spend time with him and my limit was 2 hours so if I phoned him for sex or company I would probably need to put up with him for longer and I know I would feel rubbish after knowing I had used him. Its hard work trying to be a better person.lol

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree el-cee. This is hard work. I am trying to remember the bad issues outweigh that brief good feeling from sex. I know what you mean by snapping your fingers and he would come running.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

NG, what I said about amends not being on our terms...A person with a solid AA program would make humble amends and let forgiveness be on YOUR time. A person with real recovery doesn't demand forgiveness and that you "forget the past." Doing that means you are not changing for real or because you really understand how bad you hurt someone. It shows you are just manipulating to get what you want. True recovery would be apology and change with NO demands, expectations, or contingencies about how, when, and even if you EVER forgive. We are told in AA that nobody owes us forgivness. We owe them sincere amends. THAT is true recovery.

So what I said about your AH claiming to have changed...maybe a little but there is no REAL recovery based on what you are saying and that is current and a legit deal breaker.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you Pink. I needed to hear that.

oldergal · Senior Member

NG, give yourself TIME, don't let him pressure or rush you, he doesnt want you to think about "things". Watch what he DOES not what he SAYS. Action speaks louder than words.

og

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

My own experience with change is that other people become aware of it - sometimes before I do and often before I do. I don't have to announce I have changed. I find that true about others, too. No one has to tell me they have changed. I will experience it.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

This is a good post and for me especially about that part of me which was willing to consider letting a crazy person try to teach me about sanity. Program asked me to look at and to change "my part in it" and part of that was what I was doing to myself. It wasn't bad and it wasn't wrong it just wasn't working and it took both of us for it not to work. When I finally arrive at allowing my alcoholic/addict to be who she chose to be while at the same time allowing my self to learn and believe that "It is none of my business, I don't even have to participate". I started to recover in spite of and without her. I learned later on a thought force which was so powerful about my relationship with the alcoholic/addict and many others in my life. "I love you...I like having you here...and...I don't need you". He will do what he is going to do for what ever reason and no one gets to judge it. You only best get to choose what it is that you're going to do and what you want to get out of that. In support (((((hugs))))) smile

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

pinkchip wrote:
NG, what I said about amends not being on our terms...A person with a solid AA program would make humble amends and let forgiveness be on YOUR time. A person with real recovery doesn't demand forgiveness and that you "forget the past." Doing that means you are not changing for real or because you really understand how bad you hurt someone. It shows you are just manipulating to get what you want. True recovery would be apology and change with NO demands, expectations, or contingencies about how, when, and even if you EVER forgive. We are told in AA that nobody owes us forgivness. We owe them sincere amends. THAT is true recovery.

So what I said about your AH claiming to have changed...maybe a little but there is no REAL recovery based on what you are saying and that is current and a legit deal breaker.

Thanks again. You have so much knowledge on this subject. I am so grateful to hear your wisdom and I am so glad younare here helping me!!

yanksfan51 · ~*Service Worker*~

NL G:

Great post--I too, have heard many times, statements like: "Okay I have told you about a thousand times I am sorry for...." or "Once again I am sorry for anything unpleasant that you lived with...." and as far as sobriety goes--"I know being sober is what I need, I am not above getting help (but never actually has sought it), I have been mostly sober etc etc".

I have heard here and at meetings, to look at actions, not words. I think it is tough for us to do that, at least in my case I was accustomed to hanging on every word. As are master manipulators and the disease is stronger than 10 men--the difference started happening for me when I didn;t listen to it anymore.

Wishing you much strength and support. You are not alone.

M

sad_dog_mommy · Veteran Member

Hello nlg

When I kept scratching my head about my ABF's behavior my therapist suggested that I read about the characteristics of a narcissistic personality disorder.

It explained so much about why he cannot keep a job. Why he thinks 'everyone' is jealous and out to 'get' him. Why he is unable to admit his wrongdoings. Why he continues to buy himself the latest and greatest electronic gadgets when he doesn't have health insurance. Why he refused to do physical therapy after knee replacement surgery because 'he knew better'.

Most importantly I now see that anyone with this personality disorder lacks the humility or ability to be humble enough to really work a 12 step program. He would rather eat poison than make amends to the people in his life he has let down. He went to a few AA meetings but he would come home and say "my problems are nothing compared to THOSE people".

Alcoholism + narcissism = bad life partner.

For me, once I finally understood the 'beast' I was in a better position to begin to plan my (single) future. I am still the process of getting 'my ducks in a row' but I have hope for myself now that I did not have before.

(((( hug ))))

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi NLG,

Words - BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. As Catherine said, when he changes you will know it. It won't be by him making promises, telling you he really isn't drinking right now, telling you he will get a job soon. Those are all the rantings of a 16 year old boy.

I knew my AW had changed because she was doing everything that her AA and inpatient advisors told her to do. I knew she had changed when we had an argument on visiting day at rehab about how I've got to change some things or she will go right back to drinking, and she called a couple hours after I left and said that she and a counselor had discussed that conversation and she was WAAY off the mark, that she had shirked her responsibilities in that conversation, and sincerely apologized. I knew she had changed when she called me yesterday freaking out about a stressful imminent appointment, cussed at me for something I had screwed up having to do with that, then called back two minutes later and apologized, and texted me later saying she was really sorry. Those are things that have changed in her life. I can see them. They are real.

She hasn't sat there and told me how she's going to turn her life around, and she isn't drinking this week. She doesn't complain that the people at AA are sicker or less sick than her. I can tell that sobriety and recovery is the most important thing in her life.

So I definitely can see the change. And it has very little to do with words, or at least with vague promises.

Also, as far as don't bring up the past. I think that is a guide on how to converse with an A, not on how to think. You want to use past experiences to help you live, that is learning and wisdom. However, continually bringing up the past with my AW when she was active wouldn't result in any change in behavior, just a lot of circular, pointless arguing. Once she was in recovery, it served little purpose because, at least to me, that is putting my nose in her recovery. She needs to work through the past herself, if she needs my help she will tell me, and she has a couple of times. That is part of working my side of the street.

Kenny

-- Edited by KennyFenderjazz on Thursday 22nd of May 2014 10:09:32 AM

-- Edited by KennyFenderjazz on Thursday 22nd of May 2014 10:13:38 AM

karma13 · Senior Member

I would try to stay in today as much as possible..not in the past or the future. What is true today? what feels good today? and how can I take care of myself today? What is flat out in my best interest? list of pros and cons great idea and then I would put a lot of prayer and meditation around any decisions I make and listen for that quiet voice within me. No one else can fix me or tell me what is right for me. That is between God and me.

SunshineGirl · Senior Member

Really useful shares here, thank you everyone.

My AH will usually say what he thinks I need to hear. Is meaningless as he is so numb from his disease, he doesn't know reality.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.