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My fiance' is 3 months sober after 5 years of binge drinking practically every day. While he was drinking, he was a compulsive liar. I was constantly catching him in lies that he told while drinking or about his drinking. Whether it was a big lie or a small lie, I couldn't trust a single thing he said. He was not only a compulsive liar, but was also every emotionally abusive. He would maniuplate the situation to make everything my fault when we would fight. I dealt with this for 3 of the 5 years. It got to the point where I had a bag packed and was looking for a place to live. He got his act together and hasn't had a drop in over 3 months. We are attending couples counseling and have spoken about honesty and communication extensively. I have told him from the very beginning that I hate lying. That it disrespects me because I never lie to him. I have had a real trust issue with him, which I was starting to get a hold of while in counseling. Recently, he lied about where he was one night and that pretty much flipped a crazy switch for me. During our relationship while he was drinking, I had developed a "crazy" personality when he got into his lying, manipulative moods. I have since tried to rein that in since we are not dealing with that anymore. But this once incident just made me go crazy. To find out he wasn't at home like he said he was, made me go back into that state of terror and I got instantly angry at the lie. He was not drinking but I did ask if he did because he hasn't exhibited this behavior since before he stopped. His responses when I would not react the way he wants me to is to deny me things (I.E. A ride home from work, or use of our car that we bought together, locking me outside the apartment, etc...). I feel that he is going back into his maniuplative ways and is blaming this whole arguement on me because I flipped my "crazy switch" when I found out he lied to me. Has anyone else ever experienced this? I am not proud of how I acted but I am also trying to explain that after 3 years of lying and emotional abuse, 3 months is not enough time to heal from everything that has happened. I am also pregnant so my heightened emotions are not helping either. But it seems he doesn't see any of that. Some insight woudl be great. I hope I am not alone in this.
I certainly am experienced at lying from an alcoholic, in my case my wife. My wife is normally not a liar, hates lying, but when she became an alcoholic, she would lie about seemingly random things. Once I was able to step back and look at it, I realized that 90% of the lies were designed to be able to keep drinking, the other 10% were to keep me off balance so I wouldn't trust myself in my observations of her.
I had my part in it too. She would drink vodka until passed out. After awhile I would just let her lie down and pass out, wake her in the morning for work. But sometimes she went too far and I had my crazy times as well. Yelled a lot, never got physical got came really close just due to the frustration.
She is now in recovery, has been sober for over 5 months. But yes, it does take a while to trust again. Alcoholism is such a sneaky disease, that's why we all develop "drunkdar", most of us feel like we can tell if they've been drinking in the first 10 seconds of our interactions with them. And sometimes when in recovery my drunkdar goes off. So far it has always been a false alarm.
Is your fiancée in a recovery program like AA? Are you in a recovery program like Al Anon? All of my advances in dealing with my AW, whether she was active or in recovery, have been through Al Anon. It can help you to get rid of the "crazy switch", it certainly has helped me in that regard. We find that, after living with an A for awhile, we develop our own craziness/insanity and accept behaviors we would normally never accept, and sometimes become people we never thought we would. Just like the addicts become people they never thought they would. After all, they don't go out and say "hey, I think I will become an A, that will just be a lot of fun!". In general they are miserable. When my AW got her 2nd DUI and hit bottom, she was passively trying to kill herself.
I encourage you to find Al Anon, look around here, go to online or face-to-face meetings. It could save your life, and the life of that precious one your are carrying around. And the life of your fiancée. But don't expect that you will be able to change him, you can only change yourself.
Thank you for the insight. I am glad I am not the only one. Just a little background, I have never experienced anything like this in my life. I don't have anyone in my family with addiction issues so when I started dating him, it was a real eye opener. I did not want to be "one of the many" who gave up on him so I stayed with him. I can honestly say with my whole heart that I love him unconditionally. It's hard though. Because like you said, the lifestyle takes a toll after a while and even while in recovery, we turn to the defense mechanisms that we became accustomed to while they were drinking. And it seems that even though the drinking has stopped, there are lasting effects. I have not been to an Alanon meeting but I have been on the forum and website a lot. Due to my work schedule, I am unable to attend. I do attend AA meetings with him and we go to couple's counseling together. I am a very stuborn individual. I grew up being taught not to take any crap from anyone and to stand up for yourself. It's hard for me to step back and change myself when I fear I will get the same behavior in return. I have been through hell and back with this man and I feel that I deserve at least the courtsey of a "heads up" instead of a lie. This relationship has turned me into a person that I don't like to be sometimes. Even though it is going 100 times better than 3 months ago, we both still have our moments. I don't want those moments at all and it's hard. I have never had mental issues but I feel like I have slowly developed something because of this experience. It's hard for me to step back when it is effecting my life just as much as his. I guess I am selfish. I don't know. Again, thank you for your insight. It helps alot.
You aren't selfish. Well, maybe you are, I don't really know you, but in this case you aren't! Alcoholism affects everyone in the family. I'm so glad you are going to therapy and he is going to AA. Keep stopping in here as well. You will learn a lot. It takes some time to get your head wrapped around the fact that it's OK to think of yourself again. And it's OK to have life on your terms. When you say "I did not want to be 'one of the many' who gave up on him ", that is admirable, but you might want to check your motivations, as to whether you are living your life on your terms, or are reacting to a situation and don't want to let go of it because it would be failure.
I really did the same thing with my relationship. I have been married for 24 years, and when I look back on it, even though when we initially married my wife had no symptoms of alcoholism, there were other issues with both of us, and much of the reason I clung in there was because, to get out of it, would be to admit failure, which I have never allowed myself to do. So now my wife and I are here, and we are working on our marriage, and I am coming to various epiphanies because I never thought about myself too much before, and I think it is working. But both of us acknowledge that if we went back to ourselves 24 years ago we would have recommended against getting married.
Sorry to be so blunt, and sorry to ramble, I hope you take this as food for thought. And also, as we say in Al Anon, "take what you like and leave the rest". it allows us to speak more bluntly sometimes, because that is one of the ways in which we grow, honesty with love.
Kenny
-- Edited by KennyFenderjazz on Tuesday 29th of April 2014 10:09:28 AM
I am sorry that you and your fiancé are going through this, it ain't easy and I don't think that you are being selfish btw.
I too am as stubborn as hell! So stubborn that I thought that if I stayed flexible, like a birch instead of an oak tree, I would get us through all the alcoholic behaviour. I ducked and dived and let the insulting behaviour sail past me without noticing how it was affecting my own behaviour. Then one day I realised that I was, like you say, turning into someone I didn't like, and that was a wake up call for me. I knew nothing about boundaries, or how to ask for what I needed, and these wonderful boards at MIP plus a face to face meeting when I can have helped me to understand the disease of alcoholism enough to know how important it is to stay true to oneself.
I have also learnt that it is not helpful to either myself or AH if I accept abusive behaviour. Now I'm trying to learn how to turn that behaviour away with grace instead of crazy behaviour. I'm still very much a beginner in that regard!
I don't know if this will help or not .. my STBAX is supposedly in recovery and continues to lie. I want to say he's about 3 months based upon what I can tell. 3 months sober after such a long period of time of active addiction is nothing in terms of recovery and don't get me wrong .. it's GREAT he's working a program of recovery .. however it just doesn't stop because he all of a sudden has attended a few meetings or is just starting to dry out from actively drinking. It is the thinking that goes with the drinking. THAT takes a LONG time to change and it doesn't happen just because sobriety has arrived .. there is a huge difference between sobriety and real recovery work .. which is really none of my business what he does or doesn't do.
The lying isn't about me personally. I try and just stand in my truth quietly and let my actions set the necessary boundaries. I try and fail miserably at some points .. LOL .. it is what it is and that's why I'm a work in progress.
I can trust my higher power and I can trust me in terms of knowing what is appropriate and not appropriate actions for my situation. I'm with you on not taking crap from people and constantly feeling that I'm in a fight to stand my ground. Something that is true for me is that part of that stems from the fact I have felt helpless in the past and not heard when stating a boundary, when I feel that I'm someone's doormat. Now it's not so much about standing in a fighting position .. it's more about umm .. I'm not a doormat and I don't have to take a fighting stance (it is far less exhausting NOT to come into a situation looking for a fight) to make that a true statement. My STBAX has learned already by my actions I know how to protect myself by just standing in my own truth.
A sick person doesn't know how to tell the truth and it's not an excuse for bad behavior .. it just is what it is and part of dealing with a newly dry drunk. I give my STBAX credit for trying .. however .. it's too soon for him to try and force the fact everything is fine attitude when NO .. everything is not fine and it will take time .. I deserve that time and consistency of healthier behavior. I don't have to trust him .. he's not trustworthy .. I DO trust me .. I DO trust my HP to guide me.
I hope you are able to get to some of the online meetings here .. they are very valuable resources and while f2f meetings are where it is at .. these are good to help keep the juices going and something is better than nothing.
Hugs again, S :)
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
It's hard because I am a natural people pleaser. I never do anything for myself. And now I am getting to the point in my life where I want to stand up for myself and do things for myself. He has a very strong personality. Most times we complement eachother great but when we fight, it's brutal. He doesn't scare me and he knows I can take care of myself if it should come down to that so there are a lot of threats being thrown about in there. When we fight, we sound so disfunctional. And he is more focused on not being wrong that he will fight and fight without trying to work anything out. I was hoping that this behavior would ease off after he got sober. It has gotten better in some respects but in others, it has not changed. I just want to do what I can to stand up for myself and fight for what I need to be in this relationship yet, alleviate any battles. Rock and a hard place.
In addition, he says that he doesn't want to upset me so he lies. And it ends up upsetting me more when I find out he lies. I don't understand that logic.
Again .. it's a disease that defies logic. I have to constantly remind myself to stop trying to rationalize with an irrational person. Also .. sobriety doesn't mean the behavior stops until the thinking that goes with the behavior changes .. some people CAN do that .. and others .. they don't get there .. sometimes you take the drink out of someone and the reality is .. they are still an ass. That's a personality issue that was excused because of the drinking.
A really great read in terms of Alanon and the nuts and bolts of it is How Alanon Works .. you can get the book online for 5$ plus shipping and handling. It has tremendous information and good information in it regarding ESH and how the program as a whole works .. it is a wonderful healing tool. There is a book also called Getting them Sober Toby Rice Drews? I switch that name around sometimes .. anyway .. vol 2 talks about dealing with a newly sober loved one and allows you to focus on you while leaving them to their recovery. Another great information packed read.
For me in those situations of do I take a stand or not .. I really rely on the traditions/slogans of the program .. how important is it? is it a personality above principle issue .. if my STBAX is behaving like an A .. then I try to leave it alone (again .. I don't live with him so I don't have to deal with it constantly .. easy for me to say). I can retreat and say oookkk then .. not my issue. HOWEVER .. there are some things I'm sorry .. they are worth the fight .. .I have to decide what those are for me. Very honestly my taking a stand is NOT the same as other people's and those stands aren't right for others .. they are right for me because it's my journey to figure that out. Sometimes it gives me perspective to figure out what is my part is. At the end of the day .. my amends to make, my choices to be responsible for. I only need to know who I am.
Most of all .. it's ok .. it's ok to be where I'm at .. and it's ok for me not to have an answer today. There is no hurry and that is ok.
Hugs S :)
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Hello again Megan,
I just wanted to chip in and let you know that my husband has said the same thing about lies - it is not logical, it is an excuse. You've probably already made it clear to your fiancé what your logic is and how important honesty is for you.
I think many of us are probably people pleasers - I know I am. In a way that adds to my frustration when I feel I have to stand up and fight my corner. It is all I can do to stop myself from saying 'after all I've done for you'!!! I've learnt that actions speak louder that words with my AH.
My understanding is that it takes time for the alcoholic thinking to stop and I've been told that it takes 3-6 months for pathways in the brain to start changing. Hope this helps a little. The important thing is to look after yourself ((((hugs)))).
Thank you all for the comments and insights. It is helping alot. It's nice to know that I am not alone in this fight. That my feelings are felt by others and are justfied to a certain extent. I will be sure to follow up on any suggestions/books that were offered. Thanks again.
My A (now my ex, but still an A) lied and lied and it absolutely drove me crazy. I made the same argument about my just being more upset later from the lies. But what I've realized is that alcoholics are all about the short-term thinking. "I'll just have this drink without thinking where it will end up." "I'll tell this lie now and get out from under this situation. I'll think about the long-term consequences some other time." They're compulsive and they have few inhibitions. If something seems like a good way to avoid stress for that moment, they do it.
I was also convinced that underneath, my A was a good person who valued telling the truth but now I'm not so sure. In a way he's a good person, and he certainly means well, he has no mean streak, which is not something I'm convinced of everyone. BUT he has developed from a young age into a person who uses lies as a coping skill. It's really deeply engrained. I think in my A's case the lying preceded the drinking. Lying is something kids try out, and sometimes they figure their circumstances are such that they should keep on doing it. And that's how they've learned to handle life. If they were really motivated, they'd probably be able to change. But usually I don't seem them motivated. Usually they argue as to why they're justified in doing what they're doing. We explain our point of view till we're blue in the face, but...
My son would say he lies so he doesn't make me upset. He lies when he wants help. He lies when he talks about his day. It's all part of the disease. I have learned to accept it. He's in prison and when he talks about his charges he can't tell me the truth. When I pointed out I got the charges on paper from DPS he says they are wrong.
Let go and let HP take over because your not going to change anything until HE comes to accept he has a problem.
Take care of you and keep coming back because your not alone
__________________
Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
Megan, I've had a similar thing going on with my partner. He tells half-truths and blatant lies around his drinking. When he says he lies because he doesn't want to upset you, I'm sure this is true. I'm wondering if it also means that he doesn't want to have to deal with you when you're mad/hurt... facing your anger and hurt is too much like facing the consequences of his actions?
In addition, he says that he doesn't want to upset me so he lies. And it ends up upsetting me more when I find out he lies. I don't understand that logic.
It's the same logic my son used for years, and has finally mostly grown out of. My son is 13. It is an immature means of coping with life.
Of course, he could be lying about the lying. He's lying that he doesn't want to upset you, because he's actually lying just to get out of having to deal with life. Also, my son just grew out of that. Your fiancée has just added alcohol to the mix, making it infinitely harder to separate out what is diseased thinking and what is immature thinking.
Sorry, I don't take to lying, and I think there is no excuse for it. I think that you would agree. If you think about it, would you tolerate anybody else lying to you? That was the question I asked myself when I realized how much AW was lying to me, and the answer was no, I wouldn't tolerate it from anybody else, I was just making excuses for her. That's when I grew out of listening to lies and deceit. And when I realized Step 1 of our program, that I was powerless over alcohol. In fact, once in our program, I found out that not only was I powerless over alcohol, I was powerless over almost everything. Other peoples' behavior, other peoples' drinking, other peoples' opinions of me. My people-pleasing ways had to change. I constantly teetered between passive people pleasing, and passive-aggressive manipulation.
My understanding of powerlessness made me understand what I actually did have power over. I did have power over my behavior. If something happened I didn't like, I could express my displeasure. If someone has an opinion I disagree with, I can express my own opinion. All without being mean of course.
And I could always vote with my feet as well. if AW was laying around drunk, I could choose to go somewhere else and take my son with me. I don't want him exposed to that. If AW was coming out of a drunk and being mean, I could choose not to attend every fight I'm invited to by not engaging. If AW wanted to argue about how I was not helping her get into bed when she was drunk, I could tell her so in a manner that I say what I mean, mean what I say, don't say it mean, then don't engage in the inevitable comebacks.
It has been absolutely amazing with regard to my attitude towards life to truly understand and appreciate what I have power over, and what I don't have power over. I hope you can try the first step, the step about powerlessness that restores our power.
Can relate. Definitely. Unfortunately, my beloved is not in recovery--no where near it--and I am just now getting off of the "one more last chance" merry-go-round--for real, this time. LSS, I want to have a child, and at 40+, time is not on my side. I made the mistake of waiting for a man to "come around" to the idea of having a child (he never did) and there went four years of my fertility that I'll never get back. This time, I'm not going to wait for someone to get sober, as much--and as madly--as I love him. I actually just told him today (as gently and lovingly as I could) that *I* was not strong enough to do this (ie, be with an alcoholic) and I could not make him stop drinking any more than I could bid him to get up and walk were he paralyzed. Nor should I be the one to do that. Even with my self-imposed AlAnon 'immersion' program (face-to-face meetings and phone bridge meetings) for the last several months. Even 'attending" (via phone) Chapter 9 "Couples in Recovery" meetings with him (the last time we did he was obviously drunk). Can't do it.
Like you, the lying is the thing that made me almost as, if not more, crazy than the personality change that came with the drinking. This was only compounded by the fact that we're in a long-distance relationship, and most of our phone calls began with me being able to tell, immediately, that he had been drinking. ("No I wasn't/yes you were/I can tell/how can you tell/etc.") Exhausting. Had to drop the rope. I feel terrible--he is the love of my life and my soulmate--but he needs to get well. All I kept hearing in my meditations lately was "Let Me give it a try." So, God, or Higher Power, whoever keeps the Universe running, have at it.
He's lied to me about his drinking, and then said he did so because "he knows how upset I get" (ie, my fault.) He's lied to me about whether he called to make the appointment for the dog to get his rabies shots. He's lied to me about doing the laundry. That makes me crazy. Lying to me about "little" things? Why? How on earth can I trust him to tell the truth with the "big" things, then? Did the drinking cause the lying, or did the guilt about the lying cause (or exacerbate) the drinking? Dunno. Just know that I literally got physically, emotionally, and mentally tired of guessing. I'm powerless. This pisses me off royally, but it is true. Because when we're together and he's not drinking he is one of the kindest, most attentive, creative, and talented people I've known. And he loved me. We loved each other.
Thanks for letting me vent. I hope things are better or are getting better for you.
As for me, I have resigned myself to a broken heart. Any advice on how to get through this, or thoughts on whether I did the right thing or not, or what my next step should be, are most welcome.
I've learned to trust my gut, my HP, and what the As in my life do and not what they say. Alcoholism is a disease of lies and my experience is that when the alcoholic does stop drinking, they are still very immature and very prone to lying like a child might when they get caught doing something they know they want to do but might not have the strength yet to say they want to do it. And it is probably true that he lies because you get upset. He doesn't want to hear it. He wants to do what he wants to do without question or flak.
Al-Anon meetings are a very good place to get the support of others who have been on this merry-go-round and have learned how to get off it and stay off it. Keep coming back here, too. We understand. You're not alone.
Hi Megan and welcome to MIP I think you have received great responses regarding the "isms" that are reflected by the alcoholic- drinking or not As others have pointed out we also need a program of recovery. I would like to suggest that Your "Reactions " to the disease are very familiar to me and I know without alanon tools and the support of the many people in the program I would have lost my sanity I urge you to search out alanon face to face meetings in your community and attend
. AA is a fellowship of members who share their experience strength and hope in order to stay sober and grow spiritually. Alanon is a fellowship of members who live with or have lived with the disease of alcoholism and who have developed d negative coping skills as a result. Many of us can identify to REACTING in an unreasonable manner while living with the insanity of the disease. Letting go of these destructive habitsa is difficult and I found I needed support of those who truly understood and new tools and principles to live by.
Just want to put another thought out there -- I think the lies A's tell come from being "people pleasers" too. They're conflict-averse. They value keeping things calm over saying the truth if the truth would cause conflict. That's kinda what we're like when we people-please too. We refrain from saying our truths -- heck, a lot of the time I was such a people-pleaser that I never even said truths to myself. Anything to keep the peace. Of course the consequences down the line are damaging. But it helps me to understand what's going through their head when they lie, when I think that that's what's going through my head when I people-please.
I have found it much better to not claim I unconditionally love people who, in actuality, I am desperate to change. It sucks so bad when the thing you want to change grows into a deal breaker but it beats putting up with or settling for things I absolutely am not OK with. I spent too many years pining away for partners to be different. Life is too short for that. Just speaking from my experience.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 29th of April 2014 09:02:31 PM
Alcoholics also lie because the lack inner peace and confidence. Their relationship with alcohol tells them they don't fit in unless drinking. Once they drink, they feel they can be whoever you need them to be and they start lying to just fit in rather that doing the hard work on self that it would require to develop a more grounded and authentic personality.
I just thought of something else .. LOL .. sorry this is such an interesting thread to me.
I made a comment to my STBAX and it definitely got his attention which leads me to believe he's also heard this from someone else. I made the comment it's as if he's 3 people (this is beyond the whole Dr Jeckel/Mr Hyde syndrome). He has no clue who he is because without the alcohol he absolutely is lacking in his own head who is he? So there is no authentic self to show to someone else. I shared with him that within the a 5 min time span he will present himself in many different ways (umm .. no wonder I'm always confused dealing with him .. he doesn't know who he is showing from moment to moment). He will give 3 different stories in the same 5 min. And I again wonder why I'm confused about what is being presented. Then be VERY angry that I don't automatically believe him .. LOL! Umm .. why would I?
Something that I have heard in speaker meetings is the love affair with alcohol really ethyl alcohol is that when that perfect feeling hit the A could talk to girls/boys, do things that they could never do .. basically it made them feel like a super hero .. not a super zero which is what the addiction ultimately leads to.
The lying IS a coping mechanism .. the lying IS part of the disease. The lying is NOT my fault. The lying is NOT personal. It's just not about me. That was the hardest thing that I had to get out of my own ego and figure out .. an A does what an A does to keep the disease active.
I really am trying to stay out of is my STBAX lying? Umm .. probably .. most of the time. Is it better .. some times. Do I need to figure it out? NOOOO .. to much energy. Honestly .. I go with .. chances are it's a lie .. guess what .. it's not my amends to make. I'm not the one lying to others.
The person that the A lies to the most? Themselves .. because if they have to look at what they are doing themselves .. I'm glad I don't bare that burden.
Hugs S :)
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Thank you everyone for all your responses. Like I said before, it is nice to know that I am not alone in all of this and that my behavior isn't too crazy. I often feel (and he often says) that I am making these small things into something they shouldn't be. I agree to a certain extent. It is hard for me to respond calmly when I am feeling like I am being disrespected. I repressed my feelings for so long just to survive this relationship, so now that we are on equal footing, I don't want to take it anymore. But that comes with relationships. No offense to the men out there, but they never understand women fully. He will never understand me fully. But I have to appreciate the fact that he is trying so hard to make our lives better for us and for our children. All of your comments have helped and I am going to try (really really hard) to control my behavior better. True, he didn't need to lie. But I also can't flip the "B**** Switch" whenever he doesn't communicate with me fully. It's difficul because I want nothing more than this relationship to be "normal", but it will never be. He will always have the shadow of alcoholism over him. But I am grateful for the effort he is putting in now.
OH MY to read all of this brought back memory's for me . It's amazing how much alcoholism can make a person so sick that they think everyone else is sick and there normal . I had to decide if my AH sobriety was worth staying for since he kept falling off track and became dry drunk , he became so manipulating it was incredible they now how to keep you in the whirl pool of alchol . I jumped ship , I swam this time I didn't sit and stay afloat to wait for me to drown in the pity he was tossing on me after I empty my pity pot . It took him to go to jail for a week to only get out to redo over the same crap as before , some never learn there lesson . He keeps violating his RO OP , so looks like more time in the big house will give him more time to think about his actions . I'm grateful for having alanon as a awesome fellowship to help me get to my recovery faster
So stubborn that I thought that if I stayed flexible, like a birch instead of an oak tree, I would get us through all the alcoholic behaviour. I ducked and dived and let the insulting behaviour sail past me without noticing how it was affecting my own behaviour. Then one day I realised that I was, like you say, turning into someone I didn't like, and that was a wake up call for me. I knew nothing about boundaries, or how to ask for what I needed, and these wonderful boards at MIP plus a face to face meeting when I can have helped me to understand the disease of alcoholism enough to know how important it is to stay true to oneself.