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I have been away from Al Anon for about a year now. I attended for about year after I ended an engagement with an alcoholic, bipolar guy. It was great to get the support for awhile, but then I began to feel wrong about my sponsor, and stuck on the fourth step, and found meetings depressing the more I got to know everyone there. I apologize for being negative, but that's how I was feeling. I eventually stopped going and felt much better. He was out of my life, and so was al anon, and I felt better.
I sometimes wonder if I "should go back". Because...what if I'm avoiding or stuck or took what I didn't like and left the rest, etc...
Which got me pondering--why am I so ambivalent about both AA and Al Anon? And something struck me: in al anon (at least the al anon I know in the Los Angeles area), we are encouraged to attend some AA meetings to help us understand the disease of alcoholism and hear some AA stories, and well, just see what it's 'like' for the alcoholic. But I've never heard of an AA member being encouraged to attend Al Anon to help them understand how the disease affects those close to the alcoholic. They don't seem to be encouraged to empathize with us as much as we are encouraged to empathize with them. If they are encouraged to go, it's because they have an alcoholic in their life who is affecting them.
Just realizing this pissed me off and also makes me wonder if this attitude is what has turned me off the 12 step programs. While I was in al anon, my friends thought I was too hard on myself--I was trying to look at my defects of character and 'my role in it', etc. And maybe I did that wrong--or was too hard on myself, etc. But I have to say I feel like I see things more clearly now that I am out of the program--but I do hold on to some of the good stuff: giving over to a higher power when I get anxious and want to find a way to 'fix' something I cannot fix, detachment, focusing on myself, etc. It's good stuff. And just because it's not a perfect program, doesn't mean it's not helpful. And maybe it would be helpful for me to check in once in awhile.
But I'm veering off course here. Does anyone know of an AA meeting that actively encourages its members to attend al anon meetings to understand the other side of the coin? Maybe not in the first 90 days or even year or whatever...but, well...at some point?
In our Al-anon meeting anyone who is affected by alcohol is welcome. It is funny you mention if AA members are encouraged to attend a Al-anon meeting as last week we had a AA member attend our Al-anon meeting. He referred to himself as the enemy, in which we all told him he was not the enemy but that he was welcome and we were glad to see him. He said he was there to see the other half and how it has helped those people close to him. Basically he was checking it out. I have not seen him back to the meetings, but he did say that he heard a lot of good words of ESH and could see why Al-anon was helpful. I also want to mention that several (4 or 5) of the regulars that attend the same meetings are double members - meaning that they attend both AA and Al-anon meetings. Some of them because they once got involved in AA due to their alcoholism and years later now attend Al-anon meetings in addition to their AA meetings, while others attend both because their spouses are AA members. We also have members who have once attended AA meetings and now just attend Al-anon meetings solely. It is a diverse group and they all have great words of wisdom or spread their magic as I like to call it. I say magic because I do not have the same experience as you, every meeting I go to I leave serene and in a much better place than when I came into the meeting. No matter the day, I'm able to take something from the meeting from one of the members to help me in my life. To me, Al-anon has been a God-send and has kept me sane in a very insane situation. I have attended other Al-anon meetings where I did not feel like the meeting was not a good fit for me. I kept trying different meetings until I found a group that I absolutely love. If you didn't feel like the meeting you attended gave you what you needed, maybe try another meeting and see if it works better for you. I found that noon time meetings fit perfectly for me. I hope this helps answer you question. Keep coming back, it works.
We did have some double winners. And one member who had stopped going to AA and only came to Al Anon. And frankly, most AA's are probably double winners in some way shape or form...
I guess maybe the guilt the alcoholic feels is very intense and trying to recover while also seeing all the pain that one can see/feel at an al anon meeting might just be too much--cause a guilt overload. Like the guy who referred to himself as 'the enemy'. But you see, by doing that, he is still putting the focus on HIM. The alcoholic 'all about me syndrome'. My ex didn't want me to go to al anon because he thought they would 'turn me against him'...it didn't occur to him to even consider the idea that I might need help and support--if it didn't serve HIS objectives, he didn't want me doing it.
Awhile back, I watched the movie, "When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story", and there was a very telling scene near the end when Lois was trying to make amends to Bill and he pretty much just wouldn't let her. He said she was fine, she had been perfect (or something to that effect), and it had all been him. And she said something like, "I'm trying to talk about ME now, Bill" And he just didn't get it. And she was silenced. And this was the END of the movie. I felt like it quietly showed that Bill had not, after all that work, been able to take the focus off himself and really see his wife as a full person, faults and all. And she was so alone.
Anyway, I have been to many meetings and found two or three I really liked. It wouldn't kill me to check in. :) I can take what I like, even if it's just a cookie, and leave the rest. ;)
Thanks again for your response. I really needed to bounce these thoughts around and am not quite ready to do so in person at a meeting. I'm scared of pissing people off, or worse yet, contributing to scaring someone away who really needs the program.
Awhile back, I watched the movie, "When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story", and there was a very telling scene near the end when Lois was trying to make amends to Bill and he pretty much just wouldn't let her. He said she was fine, she had been perfect (or something to that effect), and it had all been him. And she said something like, "I'm trying to talk about ME now, Bill" And he just didn't get it. And she was silenced. And this was the END of the movie. I felt like it quietly showed that Bill had not, after all that work, been able to take the focus off himself and really see his wife as a full person, faults and all. And she was so alone.
Hmmm, yes you have raised a very interesting topic here... we are supposed to detach and care for the alcoholics in our life. But who cares a jot about us? I know some individual AA members who do, and are passionate about this... ... but over all.. like with Lois... it is us who have to take care of ourselves...
Thank you, David. Yup, it is us who have to take care of ourselves...but then we're told not to overdo the self-sufficiency thing because then that's part of the 'disease' as well. And I get that. And I suppose what it comes down to for me, is that I am responsible for what I expect from others and knowing what type of support I can and cannot receive from them, and staying in touch with reality about that...which means making some hard decisions sometimes. And facing the reality that there will be times in life when what you need just isn't going to be there at the time you want it. And the loneliness that ensues sucks. Big time. Which circles back to the higher power thing. I think.
I am glad you know some AA members who 'get' it and are passionate about it. Just knowing they're out there makes me feel better.
I like these questions, ive thought this too. I kind of thought it was because alanon was set up for the wives of alcoholic men so maybe that image is still alive. I have heard old timers talk about aa members who dont like alanon because wifes get stronger and life can get harder for them. Im not sure if this is still the case. At our local convention there was no alanon speaker and I heard that they are reluctant to support alanon, again im not sure how true this is. It makes me want to get involved this year and make sure we are represented. I thinkmits easy to see the two as seperate and divided but for me I try to think of my own needs. If I get rid of some crippling resentment and anger by attending open Aa meetings then thats what il do for me and my life, forget the politics.
No, I haven't heard of AA meetings that encourage members to attend Al-Anon meetings to understand how we're affected by the disease. What I have experienced are people who first attend AA and then later attend Al-Anon meetings because they are being affected by non-recovery As or because its been recommended that they continue their recovery work with Al-Anon meetings. I appreciate the "double winners" in our meetings who don't have an axe to grind against people who aren't As. They bring an element to the meetings that is more than helpful to my recovery and an honesty that is earthy and often profound.
I do want you to know that although I've been in Al-Anon for 35 years, I did get ticked off in the beginning because there seemed to be so much focus on understanding the alcoholic. I didn't want to understand the alcoholic. I'd had enough of him and his stuff. After continued recovery, I was so happy to go to open AA meetings because I needed to know things I couldn't have learned in Al-Anon meetings that helped me keep from helping my A when helping was really hurting him.
Aloha Kd...welcome to the board...stirring stuff up lol. The subject is very close to me in real time both what you have done (I relate) and what it was like for me. I am a double...9 years in Al-Anon alcohol free and then AA because I did my own honest assessment and got recommended to AA. I didn't like (hated!!) either program the first time around especially AA. I told them they were the biggest bunch of A--H---- in the world and to stay the hell out of my face. Second time around I was crawling around on a bottom of insanity which included rage and resentments and was suicidal and HP brought me hand in hand back into Al-Anon.
You get to work the program your way. To thine own self be true. I did most of the program as suggested my own way. We have characteristics which often times are supportive and other times seem to find the landmines in life.
Resentments kept me in molasses...slogging along in the program. That wasn't a sin...I slogged and while I did I got more and more. There was no sign at the edge of the path that said "Run don't walk". Maybe hidden resentments holding you back? Resentments against self also? You said you reached the 4th and then found yourself stuck there..."Made a searching, fearless and moral inventory of ourselves" For me it was "Damn!! Me?? Really??...she's the one with the problem" and later it came to me that what I was staying at arms length from was getting to know the one person I had lived my whole life with and never knew anything about"...Me!
I've since done 6 forth steps...each one more searching, and fearless and moral (the difference between good and bad) with awesome sponsorship. I got in the second time and stayed because of the first promise I ever heard in a meeting..."If you keep and open mind...you will find help". I NEEDED HELP!!! and so I got it. AA isn't the best thing going. Most of the people in my Saturday/Sunday AA by the Bay home group have long sobriety and keep coming back to help others. All are welcomed. What is interesting is those meetings were founded by two doubles and a addict/alcoholic and we don't just do drunkalogues and horror stories we do the gammut because we live in the gammut....and we don't drink. Yesterday an old timer of 40 years share that when he first got into the program he only worked the 1st step for 10 years and you could almost hear some of the "pure" alcoholics groan yet the rest of the room was very interested in listening him talk about working the "principles of the program" for 10 years before the next 11 steps. "Principles of the program" is almost exclusively Al-Anon speak here and where I got into recovery.
Go back for you...do your 4th...lead meetings on doing the 4th get as much ESH...bring up the 4th step here and get feedback. You're okay...you sound like you've learned a lot and have some grounding. Thanks for your share. (((((hugs))))) in support
-- Edited by Jerry F on Monday 17th of March 2014 09:52:50 PM
My first experiences with alanon (as an alcoholic) led me to think that you guys put up with a whole lot of bullcrap when you should just leave or cut off the A. I got frustrated because AA is so solution oriented with a clear goal (Don't Drink). With alanon I was like "So what is it? Put up with this crap or not?" I was not seeing the complexity of it. I was not seeing that people who step into alanon have been systematically worn down over year and need more of a safe haven to have esteem grow, develop a support network, and that the process of them caring for self evolves more organically here. I would worry that if more alcoholics came to Alanon when they were not ready, they would think the same things I did and they would just be pushy and obtuse. Aside from that, I come to realize alanon has nothing to do with the alcoholic really....encouraging them to go would have them thinking mistakenly it is all about them....which is already a bad thing with alcoholics. Just my random thoughts.
Interesting question. I have a very dear friend who has been sober in AA for some 40 years. He has shared so much over the years about his journey and what he has learnt and I would consider him to be one of the kindest and most together people I have ever met. (I also know for sure that he wouldn't mind me sharing about our conversations as we have discussed this in the past). Yet one day he told me that his wife (who had joined alanon and eventually divorced him some 40 years earlier) still treated him coldly, even though he'd "paid her the money she was due and settled everything fairly and eventually done the right thing by". He just couldn't understand it. I asked him...is it possible that she loved you and stayed with you for so many years because she wanted you to get well and have a future with her? Maybe you broke her heart. Maybe it hurt her to have to leave you".
He looked shocked and said "do you know, I never thought of that".
A few days later he reported that he'd talked to her about this and I had been right and they had tearful conversations and I guess he had a chance to make some amends.
Isn't that astounding. All of that recovery and healing, years of service work and just generally being an awesome person to everyone he met, and it never occurred to him that he had hurt his wife in any way other than financially and materially. That blows me away.
But it isn't a competition, I guess. Just because they will never feel our pain doesn't mean we have to keep feeling theirs.
-- Edited by Melly1248 on Tuesday 18th of March 2014 11:16:38 AM
Melly! Wow. Just...wow. That was exactly what I needed to hear today. It hurts me intensely at times that I had to leave my A. Oh, and I had to, maybe I'll share why here later.
And the rest of the replies--thanks so much. I am at work and can't respond more fully right now, but you all have been very helpful and I will check back later today.
But wow, Melly. Thanks so much. The entire story and then your last sentence...thank you thank you thank you.
I was in AA for 12 years before I realized my codependency was killing me.
A wise man in AA told me, "if you have any alcoholics in your life (hello! Inwas surrounded by them!) then you might want to think about a little Alanon help."
The next time I spoke to him he said, "if you have any alcoholics in your life - including yourSELF - you might want to think about aite Alanon help."
Over half if us in AA are codependents and many of us are suffering not knowing this, feeling ways like something is missing but not knowing what. Thinking we're different and feeling ashamed.
12 Step fellowships are changing with the world as it needs to. There's a lot of cross-fellowshipping on both sides now, and thank God.
Were not always that different, and while AAs can make Alanons crazy, Alanons can make AAs awfully freakin thirsty. :-/
