Anxiety - Al-Anon Family Group

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Anxiety

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't think its cruel, but I do wonder if the other cats being free might have something to do with this? Again, it was the internet that I read this possible help on. I haven't had any experience with it. I know the SPCA crates all their cats when they want to adopt them out. Maybe they can help with this?

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 18th of January 2014 02:49:12 PM

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Am I seeing the cats in separate crates? I wonder if confining them in a small space together might do more good? Interested to see where Deb chimes in on it though, she's the animal expert.

mm830 · Senior Member

Hi Cathy, I don't know anything about crating the cats but wanted to let you know I care and I don't think you are doing the wrong thing, some things take time. Hang in there they will probably end up the best of friends.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

They look calm in the photo. They're used to fighting each other. They can't do it in the crates, but they still recognize each other and they still have the same temperament. At least they can't hurt each other right now.

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

When I took that pic was right at the beginning. Now the cages are trashed. Litter everywhere, food and water dumped and they are both laying in the litter boxes...

They are calmed down at the moment but when I enter the room they howl again. I think the cages need to be where I won't walk right past them all the time.

No way right now can they be together in the same cage. I will fight to the death.

Yeah I hope Deb does comment of this. She is the expert I'm sure. She helped me when one of my cats was sick.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

They're both in their litter boxes? Makeshift cat beds? Litter, food and water pitched around? Wow! They both have tempers, don't they?

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I hope Debilyn posts on the board. I have 3 cats of my own I'm going to have to figure out what to do with when I bring them all into one house. The two girls who are sisters never fought each other until they were 2 and adults. Then, the male came here and they were so awful to him after more than 2 months of trying to bring them together, I had to separate them in two houses. When I retire, I have to bring him here again with the two fighters. He's a lover.

MorningGlory · Veteran Member

When I adopted my dog from the SPCA, I didn't really know much about dogs, honestly. My friend suggested I read some books about the origin of the dog, and so I did a lot of reading about the wolf. Learned how to tap into my dogs roots. Why do dogs do some of the things they do?... Look at their ancestors the wolves. I learned that the crate was to be a "happy place" as he was a pack animal and lived in a den once upon a time. We needed to establish our "Alpha Dog" in the house, etc. We learned how to take this 120 pound dog to the floor like his mother would have when he misbehaved, grab the scruff of his neck and growl "No BAD DOG" until his breathing slowed and he gave in...then praise him and love him. He got it eventually, and turned out to be the most loving companion for 12 years.

So...I think it is much like us Al-Anoners, we need to look at our origins, our roots to understand and process this program so we know how to "behave", LOL.

I admit, I don't know ANYTHING about crating cats, but maybe reading about wild lions might shed some light on why they are acting this way? Hope this is of some help to you today ((Cathy)) and you can be less anxious.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I moved in with my partner a little over 3 years ago. He had 3 dogs and a parrot and we since got another parrot..6 animals total. Took my cat quite some time to adjust and the dogs to stop going after her. They found their own spaces. My cat has taken out her neuroses through eating though and I need to take her to OA now.
So...you have set clear boundaries for what you will accept versus not. Your cats will either fight and pee everywhere or not. What are you gonna do? Picture sick sick sick on their furry little foreheads? (Snicker) though I feel your pain.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I have a lot of experience with cats and used to work at an animal shelter. I'm afraid that crating them will not help the problem. They're both black and that would suggest to me that they're both part-Siamese (part-Siamese cats are often black), which means they will be especially stubborn and opinionated. If they're not using the litterbox and there's conflict between them, that means that they simply don't get along and they're using the litterbox issues as a way of expressing their upsetness. For them to calm down, they'd need to be out of sight of each other.

The vets have various ways of dealing with cats that don't get along, and friends have had some success with them, but they have never worked with cats I've had. Vets sometimes give them Prozac, or recommend those "friendly" hormones that you can put in a vaporizer. Those hormones are expensive and as I say, they never did a lick of good in my house.

If the cats truly dislike each other, the first thing to try is to separate the litter boxes. Have one in one room and one in a far-distant room. One cat may be attacking the other as it tries to use the litterbox (especially when you're not looking or are asleep -- they're not stupid!), and having two choices can sometimes solve the anxiety a little.

But if that does not help, the only solution may be to separate the cats. This may mean finding a good home for one of them. In my house right my upstairs cat is with me here upstairs, and the downstairs cat, who hates the upstairs cat with a passion, is happily downstairs. I have pet gates on the stairs and just have to live with keeping the cats separate.

I used to have a cat that came from a friend. The friend was moving to a retirement community where she couldn't have pets. She had three cats, and two of them picked on the other one. The picked-on cat had peed outside the litterbox for years. So my friend was able to find homes for the two dominant cats, but no one wanted a cat who wouldn't use the litterbox. So I took the picked-on cat. She never missed the litterbox, not once in all the years I had her. Once she was away from the cats who bullied her, she was fine about the litterbox. But in her first home she had been attacked while using the litterbox, and she had decided never again.

So I'm afraid this may well be a dynamic you can't solve by "re-training." That's my experience after years of dealing with cats. I predict that if you find a way to keep the two separate (so that they can't even see each other), the litterbox problems will be solved.

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

One of the cats is part-siamese and one is part-manx. She has no tail. I have tried the litter boxs in two separate parts of the house but that didn't work. I have 5 cats and Nisa is tolerant of 3 but not with Ruby the Manx. If your right my son is going to have to find a new place for Nisa to go because I can't send them to the pound....they are old and will just be put to sleep.

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Cathy,
I have some experience with cats and agree with Mattie. Some cats have an incredibly strong will and it becomes a contest of your will versus theirs... and, they have plenty of time to exert themselves...

When introducing one cat to another, it is recommended to be done very gradually... first introduce the smells of the other cat and leave around the house for a while. When bringing the cat inside, keep them separated so they have their own territory. If and when they can get along with a barrier, then is the time to let them both share the same territory. If not, then keep them separated- one in one room, one in the other.

Other things that have helped is separating the food and litter boxes and making sure there is no access to each other's things.

No one could ever love me like my first kitty, but she was not a candidate for a feline companion and another cat was not an option.

Wishing you success- please keep us posted.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm such a bad cat owner it's not even funny .. I had 2 cats and brought in another little one. It never dawned on me that there would be an issue, and thankfully the other kitties accepted for the most part the new addition. Probably the funniest thing was this .. the older kitty had been declawed by the previous owner and she would just whomp the heck out of the little one .. I never worried because she really would only pop her with no claws. It just got to the point as soon as that happened the little one would just roll over and take the submissive position and that seemed to satisfy the old lady. The one with claws has enjoyed having a playmate although lets the little one know when enough is enough. The oldest kitty did pass and now I'm questioning if I accidently created more stress than was necessary for her. I think that they just reached an understanding that this was going to be how it was and so be it. I do know that some animals are not social in terms of sharing attention affection and so on with other animals .. I live under a rock or I'm a bumble bee and our home is go with the flow or go .. I don't know if that's a good thing or not at times??

Hugs and good luck :) Deb - would be the ideal person to ask!!

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Well that didn't last long....I couldn't stand it anymore. I let them out. I just felt to bad for them. I can't crate up. I cry everything I go to SPCA and see all the animals in cages and stalls. It hurts....

I will figure something else out. I will donate the cages to a rescue kennel.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Never mind. I'll buy 'em from you. I'm willing to live it out two weeks.

oldergal · Senior Member

Maybe returning N to her rightful owner to take responsibility. ...... og

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

This is not on your main point, but many cats with missing or short tails are not Manx but part-Siamese. My current part-Siamese cat has just a stubby tail, that way from birth. It sounds to me as if you do have two cats with incredibly strong wills, unfortunately. If you can't find her a home among friends, you might look for a good no-kill shelter. (Not all no-kill shelters are good, which is why I say a good one.) You often have to get onto a waiting list, so you might put your name on now. It's a shame that it's so hard to place older cats. I always find they're much calmer and more mellow!

-- Edited by Mattie on Saturday 18th of January 2014 10:48:58 PM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

I am mostly dog and horse training, but cats??? they can be territorial....both same sex??? if so, separate crates is appropriate and leaving them side by side so they can "see" and maybe "chat" but cannot hurt each other....some animals never acclimate, but this is your best shot....give it time...don't show you are excited and leave them to acclimate if they ever will on their own.....same sex males??? or females??? if males are they both neutered??? if not?? that is issue right there....they need to be neutered to take away that aggression..... putting grown males together can be tough, it acn be done, but sometimes it just does not work....some cats are cat aggressive and the other kitty, sensing that will react......when i was volunteering at the shelters, I would encourage same sex dog/cat adoptions IF the animals were BOTH non aggressive and especially if they were "roommates"....when i brought my cat home, my pit bull was too curious about her...kitty was not happy...the old dog she liked b/c ole fat girl was about as interested in her as an old potato.....oh she did the obligatory "hello...goodbye..." off to her food, but miss pitbull had to investigate....not that i felt pittie would harm kittie, i was actually putting my money on the kittie, lol.....anywsay, i left kitty in her crate to feel safe...get acclimated and miss pittie quit treating her like she was visiting freak show and began to show less curiosity, so one day i let kitty out of her crate.........things went well, later i found them fast asleep on the same towel on the floor, both passed out...I checked for pulses and yep...they had "bedded and crashed out" they are best friends now.....all because i did not Rush things and kept them safely separated until THEY made the decision that neither was a threat or something to be too curious about....

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Ruby has the taller back legs like a Manx. Her records show it too. I just can't give them away so I'm going to try at least getting them to use the litter box again instead of marking. I can control the fighting pretty much and I can put Nisa in the guest bedroom during the day. That is her personal space. I just can't give either one away at this point. I feel to much love for them. I put a litter box, food and water in her room and closed the door. She is quite content right now just being in her own space.

I'm also going to have to hire a professional to come in and clean my carpets with special pet urine removal cleaning equipment/solutions. Last time it cost me 700 dollars so here we go again. sigh......

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

N: I laughed my way through almost your entire response to Cathy. In fact, I'm still laughing. Between Cathy in her afghan hat and you and your animal training tips and experiences, I'm enjoying myself while watching this thread really closely and learning a lot. Thank you for posting it, Cathy. Thanks for the laugh, Rose.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 18th of January 2014 11:12:51 PM

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Rose

All 5 of my kitties are female and are fixed. I'm going to try the separating thing. I should have done that right at the beginning when Nisa first came into our home. I have had this happen before and I have had many cats.

Love your post....made me smile.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Cathyinaz wrote:
Hi Rose

All 5 of my kitties are female and are fixed. I'm going to try the separating thing. I should have done that right at the beginning when Nisa first came into our home. I have had this happen before and I have had many cats.

Love your post....made me smile.

well as you know we women can be B****es, but the old "you stay in your space...and you stay in yours, till I THINK you will be ok"....oh yea, we use stilettos, they use claws that are like grapling hooks....same unpleasent experience breaking them up....females can be territorial as well....I still recommend separate dorms till the kids learn to "play nice" .........

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I tend to allow them to figure it out. Now big Ginger, Lovey hangs out way up on top the cubboards Below is his cat tree and food, water on counter.

the other two have that neat shelve thing I got free at walmart.I put their food and water there. all have nice beds.so far so good.

don't give up!!!

Those two, emily and sam go out to go potty with the dogs then come back in with them! amazing. Lovey goes to the door. I love the dynamics. Lovey and sam are no longer fighting or cussin at each other.

Mellow out lady!! Its more about your ability to shut them off. Pru princess piggy keeps biting the dogs bums,takes off to be behind me!!! lol animals have their own way. dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd oops fell asleeep.

serenity, we gotta choose it. I have eight dogs in here, three cats, four guina pigs, sulcata and box turtle and Pru and dickens, in the morn augs comes in for breakfast!

they all have to figure it out if hey want to live at eden. got me rules don'tcha know!

hugs, you are so cut! debilyn

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Its not the cats, it's us.YOU are the alpha, let them know that! Glory horse loves augie and he her. but she will go into lets lick augie and bite him! Just a little. augs cries, hurts his feelings. I go out and make it clear I am the boss/alpha around here. I talk to them as I would my kids or just kids! When y ou have a giant horse and giant piglet you gotta be strong, but loving.

Hold the ones who have been there first. He needs to know his place.

remember I had up to 30 rescues, if some one was being naughty they got a talking to and put into their area!

deep breaths, drop your elbows, work on YOU mellowing out, massages, go to a poool and float, beeeeeee the water! hugs

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

Our cats cat make the most awful noises can't they? Lovely when they purr but ghastly when they want to register their discontent - just imagine them as complaining customers in a restaurant!!

I agree with Melly - you are the boss. I imagine that the cats need to work out what their pecking order is and where their 'spot' is in the house. The spraying is ghastly though, you have my sympathy. Just out of interest have you tried putting each cat into a separate room (not cage) for a while with their individual litter trays so that they each have their own space and are out of sight of each other? (does that sound familiar?!!

)

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Good Morning Everyone

Thank you so much for the help. I'm now going to try the caging Monday when I go to work so I don't see them in there. I can control the fighting but I have to do something about the marking so I'm still going to try the cage thing so they have to use the boxes.

It's going to cost me to get this house de-marked as you might say.... I can handle the fighting but not the marking. No more. I wish they could go outside but they would be coyote bait. You don't see cats around this area. Not even dogs roaming.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Fortunately, cats sleep a lot! Howling lasts for a short time. Sleeping can last for hours and hours. Here's hopin'.

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

I feel for you Cathy.
Our cat causes me so much anxiety; if I keep him in he yowls at the door non-stop and shreds the flywire on the screen doors and windows and pees on my stuff (my bed the other night, GRRRRRRRR) and if I let him out he gets into fights and makes the crazy cat lady send me nasty letters about how neglectful I am.
Someone here at MIP suggested I put some water, food etc in the garage and put him in there when he is driving me insane and I have been doing that...interestingly he behaves himself much better for several days afterwards (even following me into the toilet and peeing on the newspaper I leave on the floor as a show of his remorse) so maybe over time it will be a useful way to teach him to behave nicely?

BlueCloud · Senior Member

By happenstance, I came across a great show "My Cat From Hell" available via netflix. The title is obnoxious, but the information is VERY useful. I plan to implement much of what I learned with my own two cats. It's a reality show by Animal Planet in which a person with a problem cat (peeing all over the house, fighting other cats, being aggressive towards owners, etc.) is at the end of their wits and the show brings in the animal behavioralist to help figure out the problem. There are several seasons but you might be particularly interested in season 3, episode one which features two different cat problems - the first attacking the owner and marking in the house; the second, one cat viciously attacks the other. The solutions the animal behavioralist proposes are generally simple, low-cost, and very effective. He explains everything from a cat's perspective and helps the humans create the best, cat-friendly environment. I found it very useful for understanding my own two cats. It also gave me the idea that there IS such a thing as an animal behavioralist who can help diagnose problems and bring peace and harmony into the cat-human kingdom.

BlueCloud

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

I've seen that show and agree, it's very helpful.

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Jackson Galaxy.....Musician by night, cat whisperer by day. Good show and I've seen many of them.

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

Well, one of us needs to get him to come and do a show about OUR naughty cats

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