I made a mess! - Al-Anon Family Group

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I made a mess!

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

Not sure how I'm going to clean up this mess! My AH got in last night and claims he had a spiritual awakening. He suggested doing a daily devotional together, just out of the blue(it was the first words he basically spoke to me in the past 2 months). I told him I needed to think about it, and then....things took a turn. The conversation got out of hand, as usual, and I got sucked into defending myself, talking about my feelings, listening to him go on and on about things I've said in the past that were 'how I felt' and how that hurt him. Like when I told him I saw evil in his eyes when he sexually harassed me. He seems to forget the context of my wording and why I felt that way, all he remembers is what I said and then throws it back at me like I was purposely trying to hurt him with it.

So, I got frustrated and, in my anger and frustration, I told him I wanted a separation. He was NOT ready for that and got ticked off. Then I asked him what he felt would be a better solution. He said that if we separate, it will only drive us further apart and that our marriage will be over. I said it's the best solution for our son and for me right now. He said that he'll abide by my request and find a place, but then came up with a whole lot of crap to throw at me in the process. The funny thing is, I didn't care anymore. I did get defensive and I wish I had kept my mouth shut at times, but I really still feel at peace with my decision.

I told him that we can use this separation as a way for both of us to get emotionally healthy. I suggested marriage counseling, AGAIN, which I know was a bad idea because it hasn't been a good thing in the past. But, I guess I was trying to compromise and show that I am still willing to work on things. I asked him what his plan is and he kept going back to 'us' and fixing us. I told him we can't fix 'us' until he continues to show me that he's working on 'him' and his relationship with God and getting right with him.

I brought up a few things that have happened or been said by him over the past year and he says he doesn't remember these transgressions, he made excuses and said that his head was in a fog for the past 2 years. I asked about the drinking and he really didn't respond, he changed the subject. And, then he wonders why I am not ready to just jump into relationship with him!? He kept saying that 'yes, I screwed up' and then, in different ways, said that he wants us to start over.

So, again, I sit there and scratch my head and think, "Seriously? This guy just wants me to forget the emotional abuse, the passive aggressive stuff, and just start over like nothing happened?" He just doesn't get how relationships work. He claims that his silent treatment of us was to protect himself from saying something stupid so he wouldn't get himself into trouble. I pointed out how dysfunctional that was and he says, "Well, I'm talking now, aren't I?" I pointed out that it's how he thinks that is also part of the problem and he looked like a deer in the headlights. I asked him what his recovery plan is, he had no response. He mentioned nothing about accountability, nothing about getting help with a counselor or therapist, nothing about committing to church again, etc. All he wants is to do a daily devotional with me? I told him that it's not going to fix anything and again he looked confused. Then he said that we should have a family meeting. I asked him what the topics would be and if we could keep it age appropriate for our son. He says, "Look, do you even know what age appropriate means? The kid's going to have to learn about what a vagina is some day, dontcha think? You can't protect them forever." UGH! And, yes, our son knows all about human anatomy: guess who had that talk with him? NOT his father, that's for sure, LOL! That was his response? Instead of answering me directly about what this family meeting should be about, he went off about my comment about keeping it age appropriate, which I felt was a reasonable question to ask since we have a teen.

Oh, there's so much more. It's amazing how crazy things got within a 50 minute car ride home. I couldn't fall asleep last night because I kept rehashing all the crap. So, now I'm up and I'm trying to figure out how I got sucked in again? Why do I even engage? I tried to not respond but I was stuck in the car and I let myself get sucked in. And, it was really hard to keep my face from showing my disdain at some of the things he said. I was so disappointed in myself and my program because I felt so much negativity creeping up inside myself and I know it wasn't a healthy place for me to be.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Makes me think of the small efforts my ex would make so that he could put the blame on me when things fell apart. "I wanted to have a daily devotional to save my family but SHE refused, so its her fault we got a divorce" type of thing. And mine would do the same emotionally abusive stuff one day and act like the next day was a new chapter, the past was the past, bygones and etc. while I still hurt from what had happened the day before.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't read you getting sucked in. I read you just reaching the point of not accepting the unacceptable.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

ILD: How did you "make a mess?" Things have been a mess for awhile now, haven't they? So, he throws out a bone of "daily devotionals" and you say what you mean, mean what you say, and from I read, didn't say it mean. I agree that bringing up the past probably didn't help the conversation, but with an active A - what can we ever say that helps the conversation? We're not talking with a reasonable person who is healthy, we're dealing with an insane disease that simply talks to talk. Tomorrow, the disease may forget the "devotional talk" altogether and be right back up in its area doing what it does best - drink.

I think you're doing just fine! I think you're saying what you need to say! I think you're doing what you need to do for you and for your son. Don't let that cunning, baffling and powerful disease confuse you or make you feel bad about you. You have done all you can do to try to save a marriage. Your decision to separate is for your health and for your son's well-being. The disease doesn't care a whit about you or about your son. But you and your HP do! Much encouragement and support to you as you stand firm on what you want and what you don't want, ILD.

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

I've learned to stand well back from any "plans to be better" he makes that require my involvement, and there have been many! Basically any time he says "I've decided that WE are going to...." I just say OK sure and wait for it not to happen...I bet if it was my AB after a week he would turn around and say "I thought you said you wanted to do a daily devotional and you haven't "sat down with me to do it" (meaning begged him to do it) once!
Making "recovery plans" that require my participation are obvious attempts, imo, to do nothing and then blame me for not doing my part.
I don't think you made a mess either. You just pulled off the tarp that you had been trying to keep over it for so long

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

I hear what you guys are saying, but I feel like I didn't give him a chance to prove that he's ready to change. I just jumped on the 'let's separate' mantra pretty quickly. I had made up my mind a few weeks ago, too, but he said, "Well, you certainly have given this lots of thought because you have all the time in the world. I don't get that luxury, I have to work, a family to provide for, so I can't think about these things." Hmmm, this? Coming from the guy who printed a legal separation agreement a few months ago and carefully filled it out, hasn't given any thought to this? Give me a break.

So, I probably sound like a confused mess. On one hand, I feel like I should hear him out and see what this missions trip did for him. On the other hand (and based on how the conversation went last night), I don't want to bother. And, of course, he thinks I'm being unreasonable because he hate spending money and will not like having to support 2 households right now until I can find some sort of work and figure out what to cut out of our budget.

I'm not sure where we'll be next year, but I know I'm getting better at calling a spade a spade and knowing BS when I hear it. Yet, that soft side in me wants to see if there is still hope.

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

You can still see if there is hope no matter where you live. I know in my situation if he wanted it better, he would put the effort in without my telling him. He's not stupid. For me to keep telling him what I want out of this relationship has been said so many times....enough is enough. I treat it like the A.....show me don't tell me. He's not willing to go there and I am unwilling to keep trying. It is what it is.

Take care of you and your son and stay the course in what's in your heart. There's no right or wrong...it's your peace and serenity that counts.

(((( hugs ))))

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

You did not make a mess and you have given him years to clean him HIS messes. Give this some time, now, and proceed quietly and deliberately. Remember JADE. I say bravo to you.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

the old saying "sick and tired of being sick and tired"

I just see you have reached the point where you know you are powerless over him,, cannot to the "Fix us" adn that you are ready to detach...let go....seek a better life

that daily devotional is a joke....a carrot....a ploy to keep you in his web....

eventually as we get stronger in our program, we see...what we accept and what no longer works.....i see you as seeing that this relationship is no longer healthy for you and your child......nothing wrong w/that.....nothing wrong w/wanting a better life and it isn't possible living with an active drinker

if it was so "workable" why are people posting all the suffering, anxiety, unhappiness that i see here if living w/an acitive A can "work"???? BUT...people don't move to be their own best friend till they have had enough pain.....

my pain threshold must be low and probably never was, even b4 recovery, very high b/c when i have had enough, i have had enough and i walk away....it never about revenge or "back at ya" it is to save my sanity.,..to do things conducive to my recoverying and doing better.....

wornoutmrsfixit · Senior Member

smile Everything feels messy when you are dealing with an alcoholic. There are no rational conversations. I had that same experience last night and I too spent a good portion of the night fuming and replaying it in my head. Keep moving forward and do what is best for you and your son.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

I get the clear picture of the dysfunction and the dis-ease. I relate to both sides of the fence along with the need for a similar program of living which brings us closer...mind, body, spirit and emotions. Your willingness to continue to look at your part in it and toward solutions is what working the program is all about. A tenth step to take care of my mis-steps without justifications and blame and excuses works to level my spirit and emotions. I am never afraid today of that step...It doesn't say that I am to blame for the whole mess it say I am responsible for my part of the mess. I am grateful for you growth and humility and willingness to share it. ((((hugs)))) smile

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Sis you know how I feel .. take care abs stick to your side of the street. Hugs s :)

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree, talk it over with your sponsor and clean up whatever needs to be cleaned up so you can release what you perceive to be your part of the stuff. Gosh, who wouldn't response the way you did. I used to put so much pressure on doing things "perfectly", I was a frozen, repressed, mess! I still say bravo to you.

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

OK... maybe some of your feelings came out sideways but maybe some of these things needed to be said and released. For me, stuffing feelings only builds even bigger resentments. Now you both know where the other is at. I use to think when I had more recovery, I would express my angry feelings so calmly and eloquently that I would always speak in a civil way. I thought my emotions would be balanced. My anger wouldn't escalate nor would I sound condescending. No such luck! I'm human! I have my moments like anyone else. I don't know if any of this will be of help but... I try to think of what I said and remember that the other is a child of God and ask myself if the words and actions I communicated were honorable. I then make the amends I need to make for the sake of my own recovery and serenity, forgive myself and move forward. As far as the other person, I try to remember that their part is their business. A relationship with a higher power is a very personal one. What they do after the dust has settled is their business. I learned not to expect amends or change in anyone. I need to continue to work on myself Even in the closest of my relationships, the other person is still on a separate spiritual journey and the lessons, teachings and growth will come in their higher power's time not mine.

Speaking for myself, I can sometimes be amazed how a simple statement by someone or request can spiral out in a dozen unhealthy directions. Sometimes it can be to such an extreme I can forget what the original request was. I usually need to journal about it after and pick apart why I was so reactionary. Is the request reasonable? Is it something I can do or would be willing to do without expectation? Ahhhh expectations! wink

From your post, the conversation started with a simple request from your husband to read daily devotions together. If in your heart you feel you would like that, you can always invite your higher power to sit between you. ((hugs))) TT

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I dont think you made the mess. You have described the insanity that is alcoholism. The manipulation that will be used to keep things the way he wants them is unlimited. My ex did this when I ended things too. He claimed total innocence, turned it all around on me which to be fair worked for him for years, so of course he pulled that one out. He played on my guilt, or guilt he perceived I had but little did he know that I had enough time in alanon, I had my armour on so nothing worked. When he realised this, which took a few months, he skulked away never to be seen again. Pathetic, really a good representation of our relationship.

If you want this relationship to be over, you may have to take action, otherwise he will think its an empty threat and work his magic, like they do. You sound like you want him to start with the promises, you want him to promise counselling, church etc. You want change but you want him to make the changes. I have learned through the steps and readings that we have no control and that includes his desire to change, you cant make him be ready for recovery and change. You can work on you to accept his not being ready and maybe never being ready but I dont think it works the other way around.

I know how hard this is, taking that step is scary. I felt practically forced into it and I done it without the plans and everything coming together nicely. I just left. I wouldn't recommend it, im not sure it was the right thing for my kids but it was the right thing for me in many ways. Maybe you need more time to work on a plan of action. I left everything behind and started again but if I had taken the time to get legal advice etc then maybe it could have been different. Less upheaval for my kids.

All I am saying is maybe you are not fully done with your relationship and that is okay. Alanon will support you with whatever you decide to do. There are many women who stay and they detach with love enough that the alcoholic in their life has no power over them. Take your time and know that we are here for you.x

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

You don't need to give him any chances at this point. He always has a chance to change things whether you formally agree to it or not. He can start energetically working a program, doing daily devotionals on his own (they don't need two people to work), committing to change. He can do those things whether you're together or separated, whether you agree or don't care. I'm hearing that old refrain, "I was just about to start working to improve us but then you bailed!" He has had years of chances to make good on his promises to start changing.

Also, we all know how much the promises are worth. It's the actions that make the difference. If you had given him more time to tell you what he was going to do, that wouldn't have made any difference to whether he went through with those actions. If he's going to do it, he doesn't need to explain it all to you to get started.

It's so tempting to believe that some experience has made someone see the light. But the answer will become clear.

He's claiming that he is about to start changing or would be if you'd only give him a reasonable chance. But in everything he said and did during your conversation, he's showing that he's in the same old chaos and insanity. He doesn't know that he's giving that away with all his actions. But are those the actions of someone who understands recovery? Or are they manipulative, denying, excuse-making words? It looks like it to me.

You're taking good care of yourself. Hugs.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey may I remind you, you just shared you asked him what his plan was and he had NOTHING. If a devotional whatever that is it, doesn't sound like he is invested at all.

Plus for me his language and how he put things sounded grossly immature.

I agree with you 100%. In a separation things become sooo sooo much clearer. They may for him also. There is nothing wron g with a time out. I see you as finally taking a step to making a better life for you and your son. I am sure he has had enough too.

You are going to see what a strong good woman you are. I can see you thriving in ways you cannot even think of right now! Plus you are giving the A a chance to think about his life, and he will see you are a strong person and mean what you say.

time for getting out, Getting Them Sober out! volume one. Neither of you are going to grow if you stick around in that sick peetrey (?spell) dishe!

Hugs, I invite you to get a journal or tablet, write down your plan, thoughts, what is important to you. love,debilyn

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow! Thank you all for the participation in this thread. I was at my son's tennis tournament all day and came back tonight to read all your responses! I am humbled. I got home tonight and asked AH to tell us about Haiti while we ate dinner. He actually was the most verbose I have seen him in months and very excited to share his story. It was weird to hear him talk of praying over these women who were washing clothes in washbasins, when I have never heard him pray out loud nor participate in any kind of prayer with ds or myself. If he could continue this kind of communication with us, I can see how things could be workable or possibly fixed. Unfortunately, AH doesn't have a strong track record and has abusive attitudes about women and relationships, in general.

Only time will tell if his change is real and will last. Since I told him I wanted him to move out after the holidays, I am not going to address the issue frequently. I left the ball in his court and in the meantime, I will be calling my lawyer to double check the law and make sure I cover some bases. I see the good man I married when I hear his stories and my heart softens. Yet, there may be too much water under the bridge or it may take too long for him to mature enough for us to be able to fix this marriage.

One of the other things he said last night that really ticked me off was when he called me a frigid Christian woman and then made a derogatory comment about women and sexuality. As usual, he just doesn't understand how to communicate without offending someone and it reminded me of whom I'm dealing with. Debilyn's comment about immaturity really does sum it up, he is arrested in his emotional development. But, so was I, before I started recovery. I can only let AH do what he can for himself and with his HP's help at this point. I love the fact that I have no control, it lets me be free to move on with my life no matter who I am with or NOT with, LOL!

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

And, now I just got an email from him being extremely compliant. He said he's researching apartments, sent an email to a therapist, and is looking into pastoral counseling for us. He made suggestions on where to cut on some finances and offered to help take care of the bills, etc for me. It's really weird, because every other request I've ever made of him has been met with wall after wall and empty promises. I'm not sure what to make of all this. He says he's changed, but one week of prayer and worship just doesn't seem enough to me to change a person's character. Yet, I hate to question God's sovereignty and HPs ability to work miracles. UGH!

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

For my self protection, I still, at times, listen with the possibility that I am being manipulated...now it is more unintentional with my hubby, but there is still manipulation. He does not have the tools of al anon to (I want to rephrase, he does not use the tools al anon has to offer) recognize his manipulations. I recognize them, because I once used the same ones. I watch, I listen, I watch, I stay with my gut, I listen and watch more. During these times, I say very little. No harm in watching and listening, as was stated, with your eyes, until it is safe to engage the heart.

-- Edited by PP on Monday 25th of November 2013 11:03:57 AM

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Listen with your eyes not with your ears; that's great that he's willing to do this however unless he actually follow through .. nothing has changed and its lips service. He's your spouse and I know I always wanted to believe mine .. it's ok to sit back and see what action happens. You will know if he means what he says. Hugs s :)

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

ILD: What is your HP saying to you? Ask for clarity and guidance by practicing Step 11. I'd note what he isn't saying. He isn't saying he will stop drinking. He isn't saying he's had enough of being led around by this disease. He isn't saying he's going to get help for his addictions/alcoholism. Pastoral counseling isn't going to help the marriage unless he stops drinking, ILD. To me, a miracle could be him entering a formal program of recovery and staying in it. My A said all sorts of things "godly" and continued to drink and drug. That doesn't mean your AH can't get help and can't experience a change in his behaviors, but its usually a long-term change that requires the participation of the A.

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you ladies for the gentle reminders! I am going to step back and watch and try hard to not get caught up in the emotions! That's the hardest part because he's being so nice right now. He's reading his Bible, I see him writing notes, etc and I wonder how long it will last and if it's all for show? Then, I go back to our conversation on the way home from the airport and I see not much has changed and I literally wish I had it recorded so I can listen to it and remind myself that this might be manipulation at it's finest or it might be real change. Only time will tell!

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I wanted to add to what PP said about engaging the heart I like that .. one day, two days, two weeks doesn't undo the dishonest behavior. It takes time and consistency to make things better. Alanon taught me to trust myself and my hp before blindly trusting my spouse. My reality is he doesn't deserve my trust. I feel incredibly sorry for him as HE created that distrust and thinks if he does something once it makes up for the hurt. Now I am working on forgiving him .. I have to forgive myself first. That is a tall order in my case. He wants to be compliant that's fine no need to create a crisis. I have to know what my boundaries are and what is and is not acceptable behavior. I don't have to do anything today in terms of this is my choice no one else's. Hugs ..

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