The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I would like to ask for your ESH on boundaries, especially those of you who began setting boundaries late in the game, with an active A.
For example, I had quit smoking several years ago, and asked my A to please refrain from smoking in the house. I had asked this when he moved in, then he began smoking in the house when I was at work. Finally he just started smoking right in front of me, and what did I do? I started smoking again too. Yes, that was how I reinforced my boundaries. 3 months ago, however, I succeeded in quitting again, and asked my A to stop smoking in the house, and that I meant it. He still smokes inside when he's drinking and I'm at work, or when he's drinking and forgets, or when he thinks I'm asleep. When I tell him to take the smoke outside, he complains that I always insist on making a big deal out of nothing, when I used to smoke with him in the house too...
That was an example..I would like to know more about boundaries in general. I would greatly appreciate your ESH on how to begin to choose and set boundaries. I've been pondering this subject since I began reading Codependent No More. At this point I wonder if it's worth the hassle, when the relationship with my A seems pretty dead in the water. I also know that I haven't actually asked him to leave yet.
This post wasn't supposed to be so long. The book has been helpful to me, however, it is more generalized when speaking of setting boundaries. That is why I am asking for ESH here. I would like to hear your experiences of setting and enforcing boundaries with your partner.
Any advice and examples of boundary establishment will be appreciated...thank you:)
P.S. I also do not really know about consequences for an A who crosses the boundaries.
-- Edited by Raven Juniper on Wednesday 13th of November 2013 05:46:03 AM
-- Edited by Raven Juniper on Wednesday 13th of November 2013 06:07:30 AM
Thank you milkwood, yes, my A had a designated smoking area in the back room of my house. It was agreed upon the first winter he lived here, because of inclement weather. However, of course when he's drinking and feeling rebellious and/or lazy, he smokes where he pleases. At first I tried the positive reinforcement, when he smoked outside or was considerate or helpful, eventually, he started drinking again and using weed and the synthetic spice and I was no longer on his radar.
Thank you Flinn for the support. I feel a little lost in this area of the book, since I have pretty much allowed him to walk all over me up until now, and I'm hoping for some inspiration in the stories of what others did or said to their SO.
I really have no idea of consequences. What could be appropriate consequences at this point? I don't buy his cigarettes anymore, he sleeps on the sofa...I'm really at a loss as to what to do, since he is not a child, I can't really take his game away, or ban his internet priveleges. But then it's not really about the smoking, although that is quite the annoyance, and so inconsiderate, but that would be an entire posting in and of itself;)
It's the drinking, the drunkeness (sp?), the filthy, unwashed stench, not looking for a job, not paying bills, the broken vehicle he promised to fix or look into, not helping with anything in the house, the missing dvds that he loaned/sold for beer, drugs and cigs, the ruined carpet and door, the dirty kitchen and melted plastic containers and utensils, the food left out and so on...all things that I've repeatedly allowed. Now I want them to change; what are the consequences?
Wow, now that I wrote it out like that, it's overwhelming. What's the point of discussing a dirty countertop or hole burnt in the sofa, when the whole thing is broken? I feel a little like Humpty Dumpty...
-- Edited by Raven Juniper on Wednesday 13th of November 2013 06:16:11 AM
I think that one has to accept the consequences of our boundaries. So you have asked your partner not to smoke in the house. He is ignoring this. What are the consequences of that?
We have a similar situation in our home - except I am the smoker. I actually prefer to smoke outside I feel fairly rotten when AH comments if I smell of tobacco - although it is a fair comment to make in some respects. Would it be fair to negotiate a place where he can smoke - somewhere that would be 'his' space? The more AH accepts my smoking the more inclined I am to stop btw. It is, in truth, my little act of rebellion - we are not so different after all - arragh!!
I imagine that you are feeling fairly disrespected and ignored and that it is probably having an effect on how you feel about your partner. Can you turn it round and be more positive - i.e. express your appreciation when he smokes outside? Can you tell him how much you appreciate it when he is being supportive of your efforts to stop smoking? Can you say how nice it is when the house does not smell of tobacco?
Are you prepared to boot him out because of his smoking? If not, what can you do to make it easier for yourself in your own home? Open windows? Lots of scented candles?
Re boundaries in general - not my best area - but I find it good to think about training my dog. What do I do with him and how might that translate to humans!!!
By the way, huge congratulations on giving up. It is a big deal!
Boundaries are for you IMHO, setting boundaries for an active A will only result in him/her crossing them. It is not easy, but 'Co-dependent no more' is a good guide to how to set your boundaries and Al-Anon literature is rich in this subject as well. What is acceptable to you and what are the consequences for the A? Only you can decide that, at one extreme it is ending the relationship.
Alcoholics will use and twist every reasonable request you make, it will always be you being unreasonable, always your fault - they are sad and whining children and negotiation with an active A is impossible. I know - I tried it and got fed up with the manipulation and constant erosion of my happiness as a result.
BBoundaries are not to punish the A they are about keeping you serene. Not sure if you have read "getting them sober " or "Codependent No More " both are great books to get boundary ideas from. You will figure out what to do with your A when you are ready. Keep working your program, get to al -anon meetings and read al -anon books and literature. Congratulations on not smoking! Sending you love and support!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
(((Raven))) Lots of stuff on your plate to deal with right now. There is a reminder in one of our readers (ODAT) that suggests we turn our eyes away from what displeases us. Creating an assets and gratitude list might be helpful to you?
There is so much for you to tolerate with your husband, I understand your overwhelm. All boundaries will most likely be ignored. I don't recall if you have a sponsor or not....she would be a great source and support in helping you with the baby steps.
There is so much for you to tolerate with your husband, I understand your overwhelm. All boundaries will most likely be ignored. I don't recall if you have a sponsor or not....she would be a great source and support in helping you with the baby steps.
I agree with Paula...a sponsor can guide u on this "as you go" boundaries are INternal and for US.....you state the thing u won't tolerate and u state what u will do if this is broken.....and u stand to it or you lose credibility.....so the boundary is for YOU
maybe a set , designated, smoking area??? I don't allow smoking in my house or truck b/c i am allergic and will wheeze if i smell smoke...they are welcome to ride, but i tell the up front re my house or truck...NO SMOKING or you go.....
my X #2 used to smoke....I made him go out side....OR he had to leave b/c it was affecting my health...I just COULD NOT BREATHE...i would wheeze, and need my inhalor and that was not going to work.....so smoke outside or you go stay on ship........it was my LIFE i was protecting...not just the stink, stained curtains, and awful smell in his hair, clothing...I just could not BREATHE......so he went outside......our house at that time was small and there was no real area he cold go w/out affecting me......so he finally got sick of going outside and he QUIT......not all boundaries have this kind of good ending, but the bottom line, THINK b4 u state your consequences b/c u will have to stand to that boundary or lose credibility......extreme is breaking from him, but i have NO asthma when not around smoke....when i am around it, i feel my lungs begin to get symptoms.....I won't even date or hang out w/a guy or gal friend who smokes....I dont' want it around me.....i want to breathe.....
an alcoholic is the worst in breaking boundaries b/c they are boozed up and dont' care ...dont' see the need to observe boundaries....alkies are selfish with their disease and the underlying character defects that AA could maybe "tidy up" if they would work the program, so its up to you.........how important is this smoking??? can u stop if he does not want to follow protocol??? i know, u, trying to quit, it has to be hard w/a smoker.....i would get w/my sponsor and bounce this off her head..... I would think that if u really really want to stop, u could (NOT familiar w/nocoteen habit) i can imagine a recoverying alkie, working program, staying sober, living w/ a non recovering alkie , drinking, not in program.....the ones who "stay with it" just 100% detach from the other, live their own lives, detached from the alkie...its as tho they are married, living a single life b/c all their needs/wants are taken care of by the non drinker.....this has to be kinda similiar....
you can't control him....you can't change him......you can only control/change YOU.....so what other means can you take to take care of you??? another good ?? hey???? bottom line you can only control, manage, help, change YOU....not him.....an active A is gonna do what he wants to do.....they have no sense of boundary respecting and observing another's needs................so....U take care of your needs yourself......
Peace
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Wow Raven. You describe my A in so many ways, and my own feelings of hopelessness when it comes to setting boundaries.
I'll share what has been working for me but of course it might not apply to your situation and I hope it doesn't come across as if I think I know all of the answers because of course this might all be completely irrelevant to you.
I've had a little success (and I do mean a little) with some of these issues. My AB drinks, treats the house like a giant toilet, ignores the bills or comes up with reasons why he shouldn't have to pay them, refused to get a job for a very, very long time (years) and yeah, is obsessed with computer games. I wont even get into how serious this obsession is but I would actually classify it as a life-threatening addiction (ie he can play for up to 40 hours at a time, without food or movement of anything other than his finger on the mouse button, then sleep for 3-4 hours and get right back to it, he gets so worked up over them that he starts hyperventilating, he once told me he would rather die than stop playing...I could go on...)
One of the very first things I did was stop paying the bills. I know this sounds unthinkable but, I made the boundary- I will not pay the bills by myself when another adult is using the utilities/house. So, I told him very plainly, I am not going to pay any more towards the rent or the bills until he coughs up his share. And then came the hard part- I stuck to it until the phone and internet were disconnected and suddenly he couldn't play his game anymore. It took more than 3 weeks for him to have these services re-connected and in the mean-time I used my bill money to buy a new mobile phone and data credit so that I could tether my computer to it and still be online to study and entertain myself. He was MORTIFIED that I spent money that could have paid the bills on my own "personal" phone and internet but I didn't back down and until recently, he has been absolutely fanatical about paying his share of the bills. As he has now lapsed, I have again ceased paying and the electricity is due to be cut off any day. Just tonight he asked me to "get him the phone numbers so that he can have it reconnected in his name" and I stood firm. No, you're a big boy. You can look up the numbers just as easily as I can. I even had a long conversation with the electricity lady and explained the situation and she understood and gave me some expert advice on what to tell him and how to get him to connect in his own name and take responsibility. He knows he has only a day or so to complete this task or I will let it be shut down and once again, I'll use the bill-money I have saved to buy myself some fun gadgets like some lanterns, maybe camp-cooking equipment or even a little petrol generator to run my own appliances with. But he will be without and he knows I am not playing games now. I mean business. If he doesn't pay, he goes without and I don't.
As to the smoking inside and treating the house like a rubbish-dump- I came up with a way to combat this a while ago and it seems to work well in my situation. (Oh and I also had to stop buying him cigarettes, food etc and he LOST it. Then he smoked my butts from my ashtray for a long time (eww how gross does it get) and eventually he gave in and got a job).
Anyway, I handled that by taking over a room in the house that was off limits to him. I set up my computer, a TV, a comfy couch etc in there and also a little dining table and that was where my daughter and I lived, ate, played for months. It was a bit depressing but I just let him trash the rest of the house and we kept to our room and ignored him. He grew very upset, wanting to know "what we were doing in there" and I just told him- we are enjoying our God-given freedom to relax in an environment that isn't filled with smoke (I smoke too but not around my daughter) or the sounds of angry ranting or computer-games. He REALLY didn't like it and started to complain that he was lonely, we were "pushing him out" etc and from there we were able to negotiate some ground rules. When he felt that he didn't want to be clean or civilised any more, he retreated to a room of his own and now the tables have turned and he confines his revolting behaviour (for the most part) to his room.
Having managed to defend those boundaries (and believe me, he crosses all of mine; he's a disrespectful slob) I feel more confident and slowly I gain more ground in having my own standards and expecting that they be respected. I'm not trying to suggest that we have a good relationship or that he doesn't still behave horribly or that it will ever be good but I did find that I had a great deal more power than I thought I did by standing up for myself and suffering a bit of discomfort over these issues. I think the key is to identify what consequences you CAN live with, how you will live with them and take it from there.
Sorry that this has been such an excessively long response but your description just spoke to me and I felt so angry and frustrated for you and couldn't contain myself :-/
Some boundaries I put around myself and carry with me...such as smoking...with that one on the outside I can and will walk away and protect myself that way...in my house there is no smoking and I don't ask people not to I tell them not to. I can and will inforce my boundaries easily today after years of practice...When you state your boundary both verbally and non-verbally (body language) others understand and follow thru. My boundaries are not unreasonable...they are simple and often times they are stated with a simple nicely said "No" or..."Don't". I no longer go into longer stories about why, don't need to. Practice, Practice, Practice.
You can reconstruct boundaries also with ..."I changed my mind" cause you get to do that also. If the crossed boundary isn't working; change it. (((((hugs)))))
My boundaries are not unreasonable...they are simple and often times they are stated with a simple nicely said "No" or..."Don't". I no longer go into longer stories about why, don't need to. Practice, Practice, Practice.
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my boundaries are not unreasonable either and i do NOT justify, argue, defend or explain them....like this writer says....."No" or "Don't" is enough.....
Melly you are waaay more patient and tough then I am...and omg, so resourceful on the boundaries., i had to smile at some of your crafty ways to "sustain the boundary" ...all that struggle for this boyfriend......one thing I would like to suggest.....when daughter is old enough for alateen, I hope u get her into it b/c this is NOT healthy for her to witness this and live this way, even tho you are taking great care of her....she knows things are waaay screwed up and kids are not stupid......this child deserves to have an outlet to share her feelings in a safe, understanding environment (alateen) and structure and safety in her home or 20 years from now we will see her in AA or alanon or ACOA with me.......i just wanted to suggest that b/c kids absorb a lot from the elders they are around all the time......
I feel soo badly for the kids in all this bc i see me....i see little "me's" in all these little lives....breaks my heart.....ALL children should have a decent, healthy place in which to live.....i know my big sis's kids, even tho dad (my BIL) was a great dad and good man, his self inflicted suicide (un treated alcoholism) had an impact on these kids.....my sister told me that she wishes she had "cut him loose" long b4 she did when she saw he would never get into AA b/c of the kids.....but oh well....she didnt' understand this and he was a good man.....sooo sad.....she has made amends to them and they *seem* to be "ok" but i know the oldest child, my nephew, is hurting, watching his daddy slowly die..
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I re read my post...didn't want to give you the impression that you have to tolerate anything, because you don't. I know what I would do, but stating and reinforcing boundaries has become easier as a result of spending a lot of time with those that could show me how to do it....and I watched, listened and practiced.
I feel fairly rotten when AH comments if I smell of tobacco - although it is a fair comment to make in some respects. Would it be fair to negotiate a place where he can smoke - somewhere that would be 'his' space? The more AH accepts my smoking the more inclined I am to stop btw. It is, in truth, my little act of rebellion - we are not so different after all - arragh!!