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elcee: At 20, although I wasn't a problem drinker, I wasn't trying to do my part to develop a positive relationship to my parents. I took that relationship for granted. My kids took their relationship for granted with me, too, in their 20s. Building a life for myself had to become more important to me than continuing to try to "parent" kids or to have a good relationship to them. They really didn't care what kind of relationship we had for awhile because their attention was focused elsewhere. Rebuilding my own life has made that transition time easier. Hovering has never helped either one of them. Even my grandson, at 14, doesn't want me hovering. He likes knowing I'm around. He likes sharing parts of his life with me. But, he's trying to build a life for himself, too, now.
When I was first divorced, I was dirt poor, sick from the abuse, untreated codependency, not sure what I needed to do to straighten out my life and the mess I had made of it, and the last thing I wanted was my Mom and Dad trying to help me sort it all out. I was 30 years old with a 3 year old and an 18 month old. I was glad my parents were alive. I called them to talk out bad days - especially my Dad who would listen and listen and listen - but I also wanted my own life and to take care of my own responsibilities. And I still wasn't thinking of my end of a positive relationship to them. I was too involved in what I needed to do for me.
Yes, your son has a drinking problem and he is 20 years old. He is also capable of learning how to take care of himself. There comes a time when we owe it to our kids to trust they will take care of the messes they've created and our trying to impose limits and consequences if they live with us just won't work anymore. It doesn't work because they resent our trying to "parent" them when they've reached a certain age. And we resent trying to "parent" them at a certain age, too, because it isn't working. I know your son drinks. Maybe PC is right - he can't stop it or control it - but you can't either. If his living with you is a source of unpleasantness for you that is consistent, it is. He isn't going to change until he wants to change and living with you won't make the difference for him. But, it sure will and is making a difference for you. And not a positive one.
Asking him to make other arrangements for living on his own isn't throwing him away like he's garbage. It is recognizing that the both of you living under the same roof isn't working and hasn't worked for awhile. It's your home, elcee. You have a right to live in a home that is free of alcohol, violence and consistent arguments. He has a right not to go for treatment if he doesn't want it, but he doesn't have a right to inflict all his out of control behaviors on you in your home. Accepting that you are powerless over him and powerless over his thoughts, feelings and behaviors is not admission of failing as his Mom. It is seeing that you don't have all the answers for his life and you can't live this way without doing damage to yourself.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 25th of September 2013 09:08:09 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 25th of September 2013 09:53:07 PM
That isn't what I said, Bettina. I said that I wasn't concerned about whether or not I was working on a positive relationship to my parents at 20 or at 30. I took the relationship to my parents for granted at those ages. I also stated that my kids also took my relationship to them for granted when they were in their 20s and didn't focus on whether or not they were doing their part in relationship to me. No mention was made of whether or not my kids or I were concerned about what our place was in our families. We took that place for granted just as we took our relationship to our parents for granted. Since this is elcee's thread, I'd be glad to talk more about this with you in a pm if my meaning isn't clear?
-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 25th of September 2013 10:00:42 PM
I have messed up once again concerning my son and I's relationship. To recap - I asked my 20yr old son to leave the home on February this year which he did do - fast forward past the fear, worry, guilt then acceptance, a bit of peace and building bridges (mixed with a bit of enabling).
During the summer I let my guard down and let him stay the odd night and of course this has sent those old mixed messages and low and behold he has practically moved in. Well, I have been upset at this situation - have been asking him to sort out his housing issue, offered assistance but nothing changed. So, this has been playing on my mind, Ive felt bad that I have sent him these mixed messages as I don't want to do more damage to my family but my feelings have shown themselves in anger, resentment (to most people) and general bad behaviour in terms of reacting rather than acting and feeling out of sorts with my program.
This morning I woke up and wrote a letter to my son stating that he must move out. Clear and simple note with no emotions but I thought rather than give it to him I will ask my hp to guide me. Well, tonight my son was drinking and got into an argument with his brother, he left and seems to be arranging other accommodation for tonight anyway. I felt my hp was sending me help and a clear message.
I don't know if my son is an alcoholic, he is certainly a problem drinker but since I stopped enabling he has not got drunk as often. He tends to binge and get himself into trouble. I did notice that when he was forced to look after himself he was actually quite good at it and seemed more responsible. The problem for me is does Alanon give you the tools to repair and rebuild relationships and am I rejecting my son when I should actually be dealing with him with consequences and boundaries. You know - working on building a healthy relationship . I have this horrible feeling that I am throwing him out of my life like he is nothing and he is garbage. At the same time he was behaving badly - intolerable at times that tended to get worse. He can be abusive, violent and unpredictable while under the influence and I cant and don't want to live like that anymore. Im waiting on the old behaviours to surface and for the bad thing to happen, whatever that will be this time. I want a life with peace and safety but am I causing more damage? Confusion is setting in a bit again.
Right now you don't have a healthy relationship and unless he go's into recovery there won't be one. I've had those same feelings.....feelings of losing my son if I DON"T help. I will lose him. Not the case. I have found while in their diseased life they don't know what they want unless it's alcohol. It didn't matter if I enabled, cared for, loved to scream he was the same. One minute not liking me and next liking me.
When my son go's into recovery is when the relationship can start again. Right now....no. I'm just his mom....good or bad. But I love HIM enough to change. He knows this but his disease is in control right now. It will change....I know it will change but to continue what I was doing....trying to love to much to the point of killing him... that had to stop and I have come to terms with that.
I was scared if I didn't answer my sons calls something bad would happen or he will be so mad he would disown me. OMGosh...am I sick or what? A member said something that stuck with me. What does it matter he is probably drunk and he won't remember the calls anyways. I started thinking about it and he usually doesn't remember much from one week to the next...so my trying to help or enable is out the window every single time...and I mean every single time. WHY DID I CONTINUE to try and get through to him... WHY??? Because I wanted to make ME happy for whatever short time it was....that's why. He didn't care one way or another in the end.
The best thing I ever did was let him go to the streets...did not step in. He finally finally did something for himself. No it might not last but I will continue to be strong and he will fall and fall hard but he needs to feel it once in for all. It has to end.
I will detach with kindness and I will keep my boundaries and I will let God of my understand guide me every step of the way.....because this is truly the only way.
I try my best to take care of me so I can show my son, changes can be made.
I love him dearly so I will not kill him because of MY failures. that's my feeling now
Take care el-cee we love you and don't want you to disappear because you had a set back. This board is here for you and all of us to get the help WE need no matter what.
PS: I ramble I know but I try my best to get my story across to others that it might help and you are one.
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Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
Drinking like that in front of your mom at that age...it's a pretty clear sign that he cannot stop or contol it. Having him come up with plans for independence IS caring. It's not tossing him out of your life. Besides...your life and your home are two different things.
Grateful, You don't think that it matters to a daughter or son about where their place is in the family.?
Your saying that family doesnt matter to them? Maybe I'm not understanding.
I agree with everything about having our boundaries and not having all the answers. But I think that kids always want to belong to a family , sometimes they are just ashamed of their actions.
((((el-cee)))) "the only requirement of Al-Anon membership is a problem with alcohol in a relative or friend". In order to find out if the program will work out for you is to get to the face to face meetings and listen with an open mind and listen for suggestions from others who have been where you are or have been. Al-Anon saved my life, peace of mind and serenity, home, jobs, bank accounts and more regardless of whether my alcoholics and or addicts were drinking or not. The crazy thing about enabling is no matter how much you do to make things better it always comes out worse. ((((hugs))))
the hotline number for meetings in your area is in the white pages of your local telephone book.
Thank you for your feedback. I seem to go round in circles with this. Jerry thank you, I have been a member for over a year. My ex husband is an alcoholic, we have been separated for a few years now and the relationship finally ended for over 1 year but I am still dealing with the damage caused to my family, not just by him but me too.
I love the sensible suggestions, I find it hard to keep it simple. This program is simple its me that complicates it. I will be back to keep you updated.x
Your life is affected negatively by your son's drinkingthe only thing you can change about it all is youany boundaries (& consequences) are for your health & serenity.
Boundaries are not immovable
When I asked my son to leave I did it when he was semi-sober, sober enough to understand why I was putting boundaries in place (it was about my health and serenity..I was ready to throw myself off the nearest bridge). He knew it was said with love and that if things changed with him (ie a willingness to change, to actively seek recovery) then new boundaries could be worked on.
From that point on my son was in 'control' his life spiralled between chaos, rehab, long periods of sobriety, where he actually didn't want to live at home, he wanted to be healthy and independent..master of his own fate.
I couldn't give him sobriety but I gave him the dignity to try.
It took me a lot of work in Al-anon before I found the strength and faith to change the things I could..I just kept doing the best I could with what I had at the time.
Don't be hard on yourself. progress not perfection
Thanks for the reminder Ness - I did the best I could with what I had at the time.
I have been trying to change me but I lost my way recently and i am trying to get back on track. My program is so important for the well being of me and my family. When I keep doing the next right thing then it does work and everyone is happier, calmer. Its hard when you lose it though. I feel like its slipped from my grasp. I will just keep digging into my readings and my meetings and hope I get it back.x
I find it's not just the readings and meetings, sponsors and support. I have to dive into step 4 and start working it for real. ( with the sentence before this ) I need to find my faults....what I'm doing wrong. I have to make lists...columns with the good and bad I'm doing to/for my son. I have to see it on paper. I have to think about why am I doing this. Why I feel this way or that way. Why did I worry and cry. Why do I have to control. Why do I have to help. Why do I feel guilty.
It's called defects.....and I have many and there not going away next week. But I will use the tools I have and figure out ME. That's what I will do.
(((( hugs ))))
PS: I have stop figuring out my son. I will love him, give him hugs and let go let God
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Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
Thanks Cathy, I definitely need to do a step 4, I have not really done it properly. Pinkchip, I think when we are affected by alcoholism we get confused about normal age and stage type behaviour. For me my son went so far off the rails and boundaries that I am super sensitive to any bad behaviour which technically could be classed as normal by some families. I need some distance from my son, I know that, I feel that, but I cant do it. I feel such a responsibility to him, hes still only 20 and I get so worried that my rejection of him is damaging him further. He has been living with another family and I think that's just not right. He should be with his own family and people who love him but really he doesn't want that. He wants to be behaving badly away from the eyes of his Dad and other extended family members. Its only me who and his siblings who see him behaving badly. I think this is to do with manipulation tactics and power in many ways. He has had power over me and my son in the past and he did have control over my emotions and my reactions before Alanon. Since Alanon I have claimed back much of my power through not reacting and sticking to boundaries and mainly having more confidence in myself and self care for once but recently I have lost my way a little and I think my son sees this and takes advantage again. I know this must sound harsh and it could be evidence of my own damaged thinking but I see my son like someone would see an enemy, I feel he would harm me if he could - financially, emotionally etc and I think if he could he would take control of my home and many aspects of my life. He behaves in ways to get my attention and get a reaction in a domineering way - he has used fear as a way to control in the past and I can't seem to get over it. I don't trust him in my life whatsoever, I walk on eggshells when he is around me and I cant relax, Im on high alert especially if he is drunk. I don't feel about him the way I do about my other two. Alanon says that when I learn to love me and take care of me properly then my heart can open to others and I really want this to happen for my son. This feeling has been with me since I realised my ex ah was an alcoholic way before my son was born. I cant be around abusive people - if it happens which it did - then I cant seem to recover from it and although I have walked away from my ex how can anyone walk away from their 20yr old son?
I think that it may be time for me to really dive into the past and the damage done - accept it, write it down like Cathy said, acknowledge my feelings - forgive myself and then maybe I can have the relationship with my son that I really want. I feel better already. Thanks for listening.x
-- Edited by el-cee on Friday 27th of September 2013 02:04:47 PM
el cee: One thing I learned about my son as did his sister was this: If he truly wanted to live with us, he truly would have done what he could do to remain with us.
One time, my son was very angry with me because I wouldn't give him any money. He begged. He pleaded. He tried to guilt me. He tried to scare me with everything he knew to use - or his disease knew to use - to hook my fear for him. I stayed with my no. I told him the truth when he was dry. "If I do what you want me to do, you will resent me and continue to resent me because I believe that no man really wants his mother to take care of him. I also believe that you are capable of earning money yourself and you are capable of listening to that little voice in you that tells you the next step to take. You may not understand what I'm saying right now, but you will."
Of course, he sputtered and fumed and protested. He'd stopped cursing me because he knew that would result in me walking away and he wanted me to stay and visit with him. Fast forward some really bumpy months for him. Nobody gave him a thing and an opportunity to earn money opened up to him. He didn't think he was "too above" doing what the job was. He didn't turn up his nose about the amount he would be paid. He did it. He earned money. He started paying for his own things but only what he could afford. He didn't have a safety net. He told me about his job. He told me about the money "I earned!!!!!! Nobody gave it to me. I did it myself!" He told me how he was spending his money - what he could afford and what he was trying to save to purchase. He was proud of himself, elcee. He also remembered our conversation. He understood my "no."
His maturity level isn't and wasn't much different than your son's is now. It wasn't going to improve no matter how much assistance I gave him because he'd spend more time trying to work me or somebody else than he'd spend working on his own life. On the surface, he appreciated the help. Down deep, he never felt like a man or like an adult learning how to be a man. It is true my son is not in a recovery program and he is still out there "bumping along." His life is a challenge as most all our lives are a challenge.
I can understand not being ready to let go, elcee, and I can also understand that when we see our own child as an enemy - something has to change and that change has to come from us. No judgment here, elcee. Just knowing what that all feels like and looks like.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 27th of September 2013 04:02:40 PM
I also get what grateful is saying - 20 to 25ish is an age of sowing oats while also establishing identity away from the family. At that age, it's not uncommon to be totally focused on going out, partying, having relationships, and I definitely took my relationships with my parents totally for granted. But then again, I am an alcoholic. I think more normal 20 to 30 year olds are doing the partying and often taking for granted their parents, but they are typically also investing in making their own way in the world as far as college, job, and securing a living place is concerned.
Elcee - your son sound like he's emotionally stuck at about age 15 or 16 (likely when he started drinking/using), which would explain why he fights with his brother since they have the same age mentality and why he isn't really progressing into adult responsibilities. It explains the childish tantrums too.
My mom would not have liked the amount i was partying at 20. None of my friends moms would have been keen on the way we partied (even my friends that didn't wind up as alcoholics at that time) but we at least progressed enough to not do it in our parents' face. If he wants to have those vices, he has to be independent enough to get them out of your face. That is common decency - even though at 20 to 25 (or around that age) it is normal to not be so concerned about how we are affecting our parents, it's also normal to want the distance and to not worry mom/dad and have our business up in their faces. Letting go will be easier for you when it's not in your face. He might have gotten the message that it's okay for this to be up in your face since your ex-A had it up in your face too. Not your fault...not all the Ex-A's fault. It just is.
One thing is for sure, you can't love the desctructiveness and immaturity out of him....or the disease (if he has it).
You think you are needing to reject your son. No No.....that's not right. You need to detach from your son. You need to detach from his problems. If that means keeping some distance between you two for a while so be it....but both you need to figure out your own problems not combine them together. You need to stop and make some good sound boundaries.
Boundaries are not rejecting him
Not getting involved in his problems is not rejecting him
When I set a boundary, like you can not drink here and if you do you can't sleep here. That is NOT rejecting. It's giving HIM a choice... I let him make that choice. He got it when I got serious and not wishy washy.
For me it took some distance between us for me to get a grip on what I wanted out of this relationship and my son is realizing mom loves me but will not put up with my BULL**** anymore. I had to work on my fears of losing him......and guess what I haven't lost him yet and I don't think I will. He knows I will be there when he's ready......it took us a some time to figure it out but boy are things changing at least for me. And I pray for him.
(((( hugs ))))
__________________
Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
