The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
So, you abhorred his behavior. It still bothers you. Have you reached a point where you can't move beyond the hurt and don't want to reconcile? I don't want or need an answer, of course. But that was your question and as Betty said, you will find the answer within you.
In my case, the answer was I couldn't live with an abusive addict/alcoholic who showed me no regard, care or care for our children. I meant more to me and my kids meant more to me than living with him anymore. He didn't want to change. He didn't change. We did reconcile - shortly before he died - when he finally saw his part in the relationship and what he'd lost. We made our peace then. But, I still wouldn't have gone back to him. I deserved more and needed more than he could or would ever give as a husband - and that included just basic human decency. There was much opposition to my decision. I still did it. I have never regretted it. Even with years of recovery work in Al-Anon and other supports, I still believe I made the most loving choice I could in divorcing him. Freed me. Freed him. I loved him. I couldn't live with him anymore.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 15th of September 2013 07:27:42 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 15th of September 2013 07:52:30 PM
The best judge of whether you want to continue with your husband is you. Two people sign a paper and vallah they're married. The rest is anything and everything the two agree to. My perspective of marriage could be very different than yours. Basically, I'll share a question someone in Alanon asked me when I was considering a relationship that I was in.
What are you getting out of it? In other words, what's the payoff for being in it.
Anyway, answering that question helped me sort out where I was and wasn't being honest with myself and the other.
I wish you the best with your decision.
Hugs, TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Sunday 15th of September 2013 07:47:09 PM
__________________
Surround yourself with people and elements that support your destiny, not just your history.
hi there. . .ive read your post and the following responses a few times tonight and i find myself thinking, "i know". . your confusion, the differing POV's from two highly respected sources. . i so know what you mean . i too stay with an ah. . its been a long many years and a nine year old child too. i stay yet i often wonder why and who in their right mind would. ive decided that at this point i stay, minute to minute, hour to hour , day to day. thats it. . no more promises no more gaurantees. i coukd make it on my own, i know this . . but for now, stayig keeps me with my daughter every day, there is no custody battle or lawyers. im alone ALOT and lonely some too. i too struggle with puttong the anger and resentment away, so to speak. . its there. . i wish it wrrent but it is and yes it clouds my days and my perspectives but its there, i own it. . . guess thats just where i am tonight. thinking of you
-- Edited by Theoceancalls on Sunday 15th of September 2013 08:51:59 PM
__________________
When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
The reason I felt I had to take a break from the boards for a bit was because I felt like I was always posting about 'him', the AH. I wasn't feeling healthy even though I was working my program. I think these boards became my venting place and I wanted to step away from that and gain some perspective and just 'breathe'.
So, one of the things that keeps coming up in my recovery work and work I'm doing with my therapist is the idea of: getting over stuff and letting things be in the past, not feeling the pain anymore from hurtful words or actions, etc. I realized that I have a long way to go. I find it easy to forgive but taking down walls is truly a struggle for me and I have learned that maybe my defenses are up for good reason. There's a reason I haven't let down my drawbridge yet, so to speak.
There are 2 specific incidents where AH hurt me deeply and disrespected me greatly, things that are forgivable, but I can't seem to get past them to where I want to open up to him or try to move forward in our relationship. My question is: is there ever a point in time where you just can't move past the hurt and reconcile? I've discussed this with both my sponsor and my therapist and both have different POV's on the issue, specifically about what my AH said and did. My sponsor's take is more along the lines of: he's an A, this is what they do, and he was just being immature. My therapist believes my AH sexually assaulted me and crossed some major boundaries last year that may not be able to be reconciled over. I guess I get frustrated getting two different viewpoints. Both agree my AH was disrespectful among other things, but their perspective on how I'm handling things seems spread apart. Neither one of them excuses his behavior, by the way, nor do they think I should kiss the ground he walks on and make him a steak dinner every night either, LOL!
I understand how you feel and what you are experiencing. My husband cheated and when he found recovery I "forgave" I moved on and the pain lifted. I stopped telling myself how terrible his actions were and began to accept the reality of life. Life in general and life married to an alcoholic. My expectations had to be adjusted if I wanted to stay in the relationship . My child like beliefs and definitions of love, trust, and forever also had to change If not I could choose to leave and try to find a better relationship with someone else. Both choices were mine No one could tell me what was right for me It was a choice between myself and my Higher Power. There are no hard and fast rules in all of alanon or in relationships. Some can forgive adultery some cannot. Some leave some stay.
The answer for our lives can be found within each of us That is why in alanon we do not give advise and we are urged to work the Steps, look within and pray The answer will come.
I see the 2 answers as the POV of someone who 1. has lived with alcoholism and 2. a "normal" person. I think a normal person would never put up with what we put up with. The answer of your sponsor would be more tolerant of the alcoholism and your therapist is more of a normal person.
It is more important for you to figure out where you stand. My hubby says he never cheated but the people he work with told me privately that he did. Who do I believe? I believe them, but he still denies it to me. At this point, it is between him and his HP. I don't think I will ever get past the hurt but I can keep on living MY happy life.
So again, it is more important for you to look inside yourself and determine what your answer is. It is your life.
Oh, guys, he never cheated. At least to my knowledge. I'm honestly just talking about things he's said that cut me to the core, that exposed my sorrow from my past (not things I've done, but what had been done to me) and were used against me as a weapon of emotional abuse. The sexual abuse thing was when he was trying a new tactic to get me to come around to his advances and were completely inappropriate and out of line and he knew it. He admitted he was challenging me to see if I'd take his bait. To me, it showed me a new level of disrespect and I have to admit that I didn't feel like a valued human being at that point.
Grateful asked what I thought of his behavior: If I'm honest, I abhorred it. It brought me to pain I never knew possible and to know that the man I shared a bed with for so many years was capable of saying the things he said and behaving the way he's behaved with all kinds of justifications to boot.
Now, on the other hand, I read Betty's response and that's where I have to examine MY thoughts and behaviors. I am choosing to stay in this marriage (for my own reasons) but am I being childish, am I being unforgiving, am I asking too much of another human being, are my expectations out of line and are they reasonable? Am I being reasonable? Is my own filter clouded despite the work I've done and am continuing to do in program?
And, Maryjane hit the nail on the head and I don't know why I didn't see that. My therapist works with a lot of codependent folks and addicts but sometimes I forget that she may not have the same perspective as someone in recovery. I need to remember that when I meet with her and she gets frustrated with me. Maryjane, I know how you feel about getting past the hurt and I'm so glad that you are enjoying a HAPPY life, it's what we all deserve!
I can understand how confusing and difficult it can be to know what the next right thing is. There may be more than one way to perceive and handle a situation or life direction; but, in either case, if abuse and physical harm have taken place, I would want for you to have the support and courage to keep yourself safe.
Working the Alanon program has put me in touch with many miracles in progress, so I have come to believe that, by God's grace, anything is possible. There have been times I thought I couldn't move past hurts, and, yet, forgiveness and staying have come to pass- rinse and repeat. I held on until I could not and I chose to keep myself safe and focus on myself. Everyone has different levels of tolerance of what they can and cannot handle; it took me a long time to not feel as guilty for not being able to stand by him. (still working on this)
The more I work on checking my motives and having and enforcing boundaries that keep me safe and protect my serenity, the more clarity is given to how I can do HP's will. Things go better for me when I am able to act and speak from a place of love. One breath at a time, one step at a time.
It's your decision that you can make one minute at a time. Please be gentle with you in the process.
Keep coming back. Sending prayers for wisdom and courage.
Have you considered a different kind of therapy?? Hugs p :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
'is there ever a point in time where you just can't move past the hurt and reconcile?'
only You for yourself will find the answer to that question. It will come with time, it will come with a gut feeling, you will know when you know, and the answer will be right, if and when you are able and willing to accept yourself and others for what you are, and take full responsibility for your thoughts and actions. the more healthy we get by working a good program, the more healthy these answers will be. staying or leaving, doesn't matter...the moment you are in harmony with what you think, feel and are. In my case, i needed and still need to learn to respect and love myself...and from there answers came and fell into place naturally.
good you are back, and remember you and only you are the captain of your ship=life
in support
Welcome back. I hear lots of confusion. First, I have worked with and been in sessions with many therapists through the years. It was not until I saw a bulldog of an addiction counselor that I felt, FINALLY, this gal gets it. I don't know about you, but I used to believe that everyone else knew best and if I could only stick with them, follow their guidance, than I would feel better...if only I could get over things, not be too sensitive, forgive, get past this, get past that, on and on and on and on. Fast forward, I don't have to do squat (unless I choose to) if it does not feel right to me. I don't HAVE to forgive, get past anything in anyone's time frame....sometimes I pray to God to have the WILLINGNESS to forgive, then I let it go. And I don't say the prayer over and over and over....God hears it once; no deafness there. What does it look like to you to get past, move forward with your husband? Picture that and how does your body feel when you envision that scenario? There is your truth. It does not lie in what others say...the truth is within you. Dorothy had the power all along to take her home and so do you. (((hugs)))
-- Edited by PP on Monday 16th of September 2013 07:21:50 AM
Hello ilovedogs,
Welcome back!
I'm in a similar place - part of the shifting of focus from AH to myself has included lots of thinking about boundaries and how I behave(d) when they were crossed.
I love Hotrod's reply - I've been mourning my own realisation that life is not a fairy tale. (Picture a childish pout of disappointment and foot stamping truculence as this little girl realises that she does have to grow up )
I have not forgiven AH and I soooo thought that I would. But it is his lack of care and consideration of my feelings that I really struggle with, plus my fury at having to tell my thoughts to shut up so many times a day! I think that part of what makes me angry is that I did not show myself care and consideration when I tried to tolerate something that I could not. So I need to forgive myself first, recognise that I did the best I could with what I knew then and that it is fairly normal to want to please one's husband - but those were not normal circumstances and I did not have a guide book.
I know that I would behave very differently now and I am try to celebrate my increase in self worth and self protection. Sometimes I find that I step into the realms of wall building and loneliness and my recognition of that is also colouring my view of whether to stay with AH or not. In other words, I am in the process of making my own mind up, my choice will be about me and whether I can be the person that I want to be, and I am gifting myself with the thought that I'm going to make my mind up in my own time.
I scare myself by thinking that I'm going to be a bitter and twisted old lady so after having taken a break from thinking about all this stuff I have been considering the question 'what is in it for me?' It is a great question. The other questions I've struggled with is 'what do I need in order to get over it?' and 'what it is going to be like if I don't get over it?'
I think that part of my answer to what I need is to see AH's basic thinking change so I have told him that I need to see him appreciating the good things in life and that I do not want to listen to him complaining about all and sundry for a while. I now doubt that will happen, but at least I've addressed my need. Another part of my answer is a recognition that I would like to find something else in life to engage me - something that I feel is worthwhile and positive. All this introspection and too much thinking about the impact of alcohol is getting tiresome! I could argue that I'm still thinking in a codependent way by wanting to do something worthwhile, but I think that what I'm trying to do is to recognise that I enjoy giving, it makes me feel good, and I hope that this time I have the tools to give in a more discerning way, without exhausting myself.
Thank you for posting a question that has helped me to focus as well. (BTW, my therapist has also, unwittingly, misguided me a few times. Apart from suggesting that I try to put up with AH's mistress (and I'm furious that I fell for it at the time!!!) she recently kept talking about AH in a session even though I expressly asked that he be left at the door - arragh! Its just an example of how difficult it is to apply normal rules to alcoholic behaviour so now I am learning to question her thinking more and to use it as another tool to see how I feel about my own stuff.)
Did you ever think that maybe it IS about him? (I know, how non-alanon of me to say so).
Maybe you are trying to make an unworkable situation workable. Maybe he is just not relationship material. Maybe you deserve better.
For me, my exAH hurt me too many times, and too deeply -- and he honestly killed whatever feelings I had for him. There are consequences for being a drunken jerk. Yes it may be a disease, but we can choose whether we want that chaos in our lives...no amount of detachment can quell the BS they cause in our lives. I have accepted that this is my history...but I refuse to have that in my future.
I look back (3 years out) and wonder why I EVER let anyone treat me like that....
ILD....glad you're back...and this is a safe place to vent...cut yourself some slack, too...it took me years to sort out whether to stay or go...I just wish I had employed alanon tools earlier...and I wouldn't have expended so much energy trying to change him...
"I don't have to do SQUAT if it it does not feel right to me. I don't HAVE to forgive, get past anything in anyone's time frame."
I will use a metaphor...my 11 YO is stressed bc he is the shortest kid in his class. Same thing happened to his older brother (who is now 6'1") -- I try to explain to him that everyone grows at different rates...
I think that is true here too...it took me a LONG time to sort through my feelings...with everyone shoulding on me.....telling me to do this or that...and that confusion you feel is FINE...of course it's confusing! Who has a life manual?
the other issue I had was getting all up in my head and trying to solve everything with thinking...when I tuned in to my body, my heart, and my intuition...then I found I could move forward.
ILD - Love need not be so complicated. To work on trusting someone means to me the following:
You don't trust them and/or they have abused your trust.
Yeah, some of it might be your issues, but does it really matter? You guys have been married for a long time and he took vows to also be sensitive to your issues. I know of what he said to you and I also know of 50 other types of hurtful digs. These things happen when husbands and wives are no longer getting along, the husband is hurt and wants his wife to feel hurt too. It's a poor excuse but it is what leads to divorces. Not saying that is what you should do - Even if with total forgiveness, he is going to act narcissitic, opinionated, and controlling. On the flip side, I do believe he is loyal and has some respectable values too.
It he were 100 percent jerk, abusive, or a stage 4 alcoholic, it would be a bigger slam dunk and an easier decision. Instead, you have wrestling with issues of compatibility and being true to yourself. That is more complicated and harder to figure out. I never was put off by your sorting things out as he is a frustrating and opinionated man (from multiple PMs and reading all your posts). I also know he's moody as hell. I also know he's funny, witty, sometimes charming.
All the while, you are working hard on yourself and all you get are promises from him with no action really (or fake action = no program and just acting different for a week or two).
Regardless, I just wanted you to know I understand your challenges and it's not easy.
ILD reading your question reminded me of a particularly hard week I had years ago. The same week I was burgled, I was assaulted and robbed by strangers. This was when I lived in a rough neighborhood, because I thought just because I can afford to live in a safe place, not everyone can be safe so why should I? (I got over that one.) By the end of that week, I was pretty shaky. Then I started to lose it. I saw my attacker in random places, I really did find my things at pawn shops, etc. I realized they had taken from me more than my things. I was not willing for them to steal my peace of mind.
I hunkered down with the Serenity Prayer. I filed insurance claims. I had security people beef up my house. I asked my friends to help me get out of the house. We went to self-defense classes together. Things like that. I was trying to do the things I can.
I still lived in the same house, but I felt so much better.
I always assumed I was the "victim" of drug addicted people who were looking for money for a fix. I did a better job of protecting myself from being their target again.
Along the way, I came to believe deep down I was worth all the benefits that came from contact with my Higher Power. I love the Serenity Prayer. It works in so many ways.
ILD, you've gotten so many great ESH here. That's one thing I love about this place...we can bring our issues here, and receive perspectives that never even occurred to us. We all get stuck in our own brand of "stinking thinking" and it gets impossible to see the forest through the trees of our own dysfunctions. And all of our respective situations have many similarities, but also many significant differences that make it impossible to truly be able to give advice.
I think you're right to want to focus on yourself as much as you can. I was talking with a friend the other day, whose RAH was a great drinking buddy of my AH before he (my friend's H) went into recovery and therapy. For many of us, there are two sets of issues. The first issue is whether we can have a marriage with an actively drinking A, or with a dry A who is not truly in recovery. The second issue is then whether we can move past all of the hurt and problems from the past. For me, and for some others, I think, I'm not even wasting any time on that second set of questions...about whether I can forgive or move past things...because my AH is still drinking. We all have a limited amount of emotional energy, and I refuse to waste mine on someone who has no interest in getting better. I know you have many reasons for staying in your marriage right now (as do many of us), and I know you to be an intelligent, thoughtful person who has been to hell and back about 87 times. If you have decided you aren't ready to leave, that's OK. If you have decided you're not ready (and might never be ready) to rebuild a real marriage with your husband, that's OK too. All you can do is be honest with yourself, examine your motives and behaviors, and worry about doing what's right for you and your son.
I wish I had some ESH for you but the only thing I could say...in my relationship, I will never be able to change my SO and so it has to be my decision to make it work or leave it behind. I think I want to leave it behind.
I'm glad your back and I know what you mean about always posting about your A and not recovery. I feel I'm doing the same thing sometimes. I know I can vent or say whatever is on my mind but not sure if it helps others...you know what I mean.
But anyways I'm glad your back
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Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
Thank you all for the feedback and thoughtful responses. I want to clarify that I'm not looking for advice on whether I should stay or go. I already know I've made my decision to stay (just for today) and that I'm Ok with it. What I am searching for is the deeper meaning within myself as to what my responsibility is here. The heart issues of my own that I must take ownership of. They 'whys' of how I respond, act, and think and where I can improve.
We've rehashed the 'should I stay or should I go' thing until I was blue in the face, LOL. I know what my decision is and I know my reasons why. I think right now I'm trying to face the whole: I'm married, yes I am married and what does that look like and what does that mean? Am I expecting too much from a marriage or is my AH just not capable of giving me what I need? Am I using God(my HP) to fill those holes in my soul, and am I connecting with HP at a better level than I was 2 years ago, etc? Those are the thoughts I have had recently. Basically, deeper soul searching because no matter what happens in my marriage: I still have to take ME with ME and I need to deal with my own iniquities. Maybe I'm selling myself short? Anyway, that's where I am today. Thanks!!!
Wow, I hear you and I understand where you are at. There was almost a steady film of resentment that had - unbeknownst to me- accumulated over the relationship with my ex ABF. However, I did find it was a cycle for me. When I was told "I don't have to accept unacceptable behavior", I had to define what unacceptable behavior meant FOR ME, which will look different than what it manifests as for someone else. When I allowed unacceptable behavior to go on without consequences or without feeling like I was heard or behavior was changed, I lost respect for myself. With the A still in my life I was able to focus on their drama and ignore all the stuff it triggered in ME, that was "my stuff".
I recently returned to the boards as well and I came here with a broken heart by yet another man. My responses (codependent and obsessive to the core) were the same - as they were with the A. Different guy, same girl - same "stuff". You received a TON of E,S&H that is amazing here. You seem to know the questions that are floating around for you right now - can this man, that ou love, give you what you need? This is hard, hard stuff. We're here for you!
Thank you, ilovedogs, for posting your wonderful share, and Welcome Back! It's funny how coming back to the boards, I've run into others coming back as well. When I was on the boards before, I started feeling bad about myself because I was only posting about what my A was doing, and I felt pathetic, as if my life was centered around what He was doing to Me. I didn't want to accept that truth, and it took me several more months of denial to finally come back to that truth, the truth that I've been making my life about his problem. The upside of this, is that I realized that I have a problem(s) as well. I am a codependent, and have been, way before ABF and I met. In fact, many years before ABF, I had an AH, and many, many years before that I had another ABF(drug and alcohol). So, in my many years of existence, I've been a virtual lightning rod or welcome mat for alcoholics/drug addicts, and just now am asking myself, what does it all mean? What can I learn from this? I know that I am a codependent, and now am pretty sure I have other issues as well. At least if I ramble on about this on the board, there's a chance someone may be able to benefit from my mistakes and have an "Aha" moment, lol. At this stage in my life, I guess it's better late than never to learn, and hopefully give back to others who have been affected by this disease.
Thank you again, ILD, and to everybody here:) it's amazing to me how freeing it is to vent on here and yet in releasing the agony, so much good is gained.
wow ILD, i feel as if your words in response to all of us are my own. i so know exactly where you are and the soul searching you are doing. im right there with you. hang in. . keep searching. keep on one day at a day. . its all we have at this point. .
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When all else fails...there is Faith, Hope and Prayer.
Just wanted to come on and thank everyone for their contribution to this thread. Sending out hugs to all who are still suffering and lifting all of you up no matter where you are in your journey.
