Amen sister! I have 3 adult children..what one didn't do the other did. You can make yourself crazy trying to manage their messes, that they get themselves into. It's not as if I don't have enough going on, trying to keep my own head afloat with the AH. I try hard to stay out, but it's pretty hard when you see the little ones they have brought into this world, suffer. It's not their fault, their parents have made messes out of thier lives. Then I can work in some guilt for having them with an AH. Think maybe if they had a different dad, they would have made better choices for themselves. Who knows !

I'd really like to be where you are and I am working on it. But I still lament what might have been had alcohol not entered into my son's life. I agree with you that we should not be resonsible for our children's choices but somehow it still keeps coming back to our guilt and so we help them out 'one more time' and the cycle goes on. My son has now moved overseas so I don't see what is going on but I know he has not chosen to be sober. And that means that, one day down the road, there will be a phone call, " Mom I need help" and I honestly don't know how I will respond. If he were here, where there are agencies in place to help him if he reaches out, then I could say no much more easily. Oh well, just trying to live one day at a time right now and get me straight.

IslandTime: My Dad's father was a womanizer and a drunk. My Dad didn't have a father, but played sports and developed a relationship to a football coach in high school. That's about all the male modeling he had. His Mom tried to raise 5 kids on a pittance during the depression and after it. They were so poor, they all slept in one bed. Her MIL suggested she give her kids away to the State. My Grandmother said - no way, over my dead body. She only had a 4th grade education but successfully clothed, fed, educated and refused to pity her kids. My Dad provided for 10 children, didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't cheat on my Mom and helped wherever he could help out with tending to the needs of 10 children after getting up to get on the road at 5:00 a.m. to sell meat to feed us. I don't care what kind of conditions kids are raised in - they can make choices to benefit their lives if they want to do that. I used to feel bad about the man I chose to marry until I realized that had I married somebody else, my kids wouldn't have been born and my grandson wouldn't be the joy of my life. I realized I was only looking at my glass as half-empty, rather than half-full. When I saw that, I chose to make changes there, too.

We are not God. We are only ordinary human beings doing what we can with what we have to work with in this life. If we clothe and feed our kids, make sure they get to school, teach them right from wrong and model living decent, responsible lives - to me that is all we can do. Nothing more.

Cathy: You are making the best choices you know how to make under the circumstances and I admire your courage.

Grateful....... I don't have power over my adult children's choices.  I don't have to take on their burdens, their problems, the consequences for their choices.  I don't have to blame myself for their thoughts, feelings or behaviors.  They are not my clones.  They are individuals who do and say whatever they will.  I've also gotten to the place where I don't buy into the common thought "How we raise our kids determine who they'll be." 

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I so agree....I used to be over protective, made amends for that, changed due to my recovery and it was a new game plan...told my kids, I was gonna let them live their own lives, pay the karma for the bad, enjoy the karma for the good energy they put out, but bottom line is that my girls are their own spirits and in charge of their own lives....

I trained them the best way I can.......the african lioness is one of my totems...along w/my most powerful totem, the horse......the lioness fiercely protects her cubs when they are helpless....she begins training them how to hunt, do life, at an early age.....she takes them out on her hunts by the time they are 6 mos. old to show them how to "do it right" when they are on their own.....once they are adult,  she is HANDS OFF.....also if a cub is sick and not going to make it, suffering from life threatening disease,  she backs off and lets nature take its course, yes, she still shows love for it, but she also detaches.....if she has 2 cubs...1 sick...1 healthy and she has ONE only trip to safety from predators, she will pick up an carry the healthy cub as that cub has the greater chance of becoming healthy adult......She does this while she focuses on herself and her care so she can be useful to the cubs who are healthy and have a chance at growing into healthy adulthood.....

she doesn't "leave a cub"  out of revenge.....punishment.....she does it b/c that cub and the futility of trying to help it can undermine her health and the health of the cubs she can help ALSO fighting a losing battle w/a sick cub can undermine the pride unity....

i know this sounds "base" and "uncaring"  and it also sounds like "oh well if they aren't perfect....dump them"   that is NOT the message here.....my message is that I take what makes sense from my totems (lessons) and I leave the rest...but there is wisdom when I observe my totems and watch how they deal w/life.....

Now I KNOW  for a FACT....many parents disagree w/ and even have turned away from me over my decision to  give daughter #2 over to her maker.....I did that b/c of the futility of my trying to work w/her only to be abused, lied to, sabotaged,  etc....

where I have the "other cub"  (D#1)   who is working her program,  doing her best to over come her coda and who could use my *guidance*  NOT interference in her studies and her step work and slogan practice.....

my attention to the other cub  (D#2)  whom I had to detach from, finally , was taking me away from the cub that I CAN guide and encourage and yes, loving detachment as I guide her, but she IS coming into great progress w/her program.....

I was spending so much energy on the child I cannot help...cannot do anything with....cannot even enjoy....cannot ever trust....cannot have a relationship with , that this time spent on her was taking me away from daughter #1 who WANTS to help herself.....I guess that is the end bottom line......WHICH of my kids wants to help herself and how much SENSE it makes to try and encourage the one who is trying to help herself....

I made amends to D#1  over this disproportionate expenditure of my energy on the cub that does not want help......and kinda "not having enough in the tank"  for the kid who WANTS help...I took responsibility for my stubborness in that I saw the hand writing on the wall, but chose to resist and fight it and try to "force" a relationship w/a cub who just does NOT want to be in my life unless it is to use and discard me....

that will change....it has changed....lesson learned...grieving going on at a healthy pace............take care of myself and the ones who WANT to help themselves and with peace and love,  leave the ones who do not want help

I am sure I am being judged harshly for breaking contact w/D#2.....I am sure that displeases a lot of people, the HARD decision I had to make to  LET GO....give her back to her maker so as to preserve my sanity, serenity, my peace, my equilibrium AND to not be so "wasted" of my energy that I am useless to ME and the ones whom I CAN guide and encourage.....

I don't care what others think about what I did for MY recovery and for MY taking care of me.....Yes, I had to "let this cub go"  I had to separate....it took me quite a while to come to this unhappy yet necessary choice....It was MY decision and it was a GOOD decision for me.......and I am my first priority....

I am not running for mother of the year....I know when to give up now....I know when to detach and turn over now.....I know when my efforts are only creating more sadness/anxiety for me and nothing changes........I know, like the lioness in the wild, when its time to walk away,  yes, I looked back at her and softly purred to her that its not punishment or revenge......I have to walk away b/c I need me....the universe needs my wisdom and ESH,  my healthy daughter who DESIRES to help herself...and I underline the "help her self"  part....There are better places to put my compassion and love.....

So call me a bad mother for knowing it was time to let go and finally following through on it.........call me cold for giving her over.....call me unfaithful for not wanting to continue to bash my head against the wall and get only a headache, never a victory.....call me whatever judgemental thing you choose for having to let go of her, detach from her, disconnect from her abuse,  but until anyone walks in my shoes they know NOT my pain.....

my being  "pained out" and STILL trying and trying w/her only to get slapped down again and again.....I was always unhappy.....depressed.....sad....envious of other moms who were being treated "ok" by their kids.....

I was dreading the holidays b/c at last minute she would sabotage my happy plan and hope  to share holiday w/her and then after she sabotaged me AGAIN,   she would  then bounce over my house a day or two later to ask me if I had a good holiday.....now WHO does a thing like that???? 

this year will be different....there will never be any plans w/this girl.....I will go on and do volunteer work or visit my close friends here.....I will be alone if I CHOOSE to, not b/c it was put upon me last minute.....I will spend Xmas with friends or I will be out volunteering......the grand kids don't  have to "suck up" to me b4 Christmas  so I will spend money on them b/c  #1, I don't have it.....#2, if they ignore me all times except their birthdays and Christmas they can stay away....

This summer when they thought I was getting a pool, they all of a sudden showed interest in me....when I had to put off the "pool research" until next year,  they disappeared out of my life.....

oh yea, its lovely being used by your own family and worthless when you don't have any money to give them.......I only had $$ enough to take the oldest kid to a pawn shop for video games for his birthday.........had to go used b/c I just do not have the $$$ for new......he was mad at me for not taking him to a "new place" for his video games...wouldn't even talk to me in the truck.....when I explained to him that these games are just as workable and usable an he gets tired of them quickly anyway, it made no difference.......he wanted NEW.....

.so what did I do???? I took him home and we bought NOTHING.......that was his "reward" for being so negative w/me and too proud to buy from a pawn shop where I could afford a game or two......his uppity attitude caused me to take him home with NO gift......

I am done with  being looked at by them as a bank, or a present giver, or a computer repair person, and never a family member....I am to be used when they need me at their convenience, not mine and when they have no use for me, they have no desire for my company......

NOT all relationships work out............Some do and they are called a "lifetime".........the others bear a lesson.....when lesson is learned, they fade from my life......

I am changing....I am not the same pathetic coda who wold abandon herself to "earn" the love of another........I am not the same person who would dole out her money, or be up late on a work night, fixing an ungrateful person's computer......I am not that person anymore......the universe has a use for me and i will answer that call and I won't feel used, unappreciated, and un cared for doing it...

the animals I will help will lick my face and smile as they trot off with their new owners....the owners will be happy to have a loving pet......the shelter folks love me b/c I bring them towels, bleache, toys and if I can afford it, food for the pets.....I enjoy giving from my heart...but to give and be spat upon is unacceptable....I am closing the door on that...

I give from my heart w/no expectation of a return, but there is giving and letting go and there is giving and being crapped upon for doing it......so WHEN did I come to the "I give up"  point???   years and years of being used and discarded took its toll....I thought with my family of origin that was over with.....it continued on w/this daughter.....now it will stop......the buck stops w/me and noone else.....nobody is going to teach me what is best for me but my HP and myself....If I don't learn, and keep going back to the same flame who burns me, then it is my fault....Not daughter #2......

I own the  ongoing abuse I suffered at her hands.....I allowed it.........I kept 4giving and reconciling w/her...hoping each time that  "this time she learned"  ,...no...this was MY doing....MY lesson....MY wake up call to  "HEY....take care of YOU first....so you CAN be useful to the ones who deserve and will benefit from my love and compassion and experience"

so all the ones who are turned off by my painful decision, its OK....I am not here to be popular, I am here to IMPROVE myself....to stop being codependent or manage it at least.....to stop being a victim which is in MY area of responsibility......to stand to my boundaries......to grow and become a better person.......to place my love and compassion where it will do the most good.........to become self aware and love me anyway..........to be able to hold up MY end of a HEALTHY relationship.......

I wasn't going to post today, but saw this thread and b/c I am still grieving over the  necessary "release back to nature" of one of my "cubs", the one I had to walk away from, I decided to post here and just give my feelings

I had a sense of sadness begin this am when i saw the old lady up the street walking w/her grown daughter, holding hands, and laughing together as they inspected their newly planted adorable , kinda peach colored flowered shrubs....there they were , mother and daughter enjoying the little treasures their landlord was nice enough to plant for them,  and I felt a twinge....it suddenly occurred to me.....I am b/c I will not be abused anymore------------Childless---------at least here in TX......

Praying that D#1  and I can get the $$$ together for her visit......she lives in MD....sometimes it feels like she is in Russia.......we have such a good relationship......i miss her.....but i am grateful she and my beloved SOL are OK.......

thanks for letting me post......now its on to filing my doggies toe nails b/c that is the only way they will let me to their manicures.....today I will enjoy my 4 legged children

((g2b))  So much power in your post and I am standing beside you....got myself all suited up in my "Mom Power" outfit!!!

Loved all your responses. If we don't stand up for ourselves as women and as mothers - many of us having to struggle on not enough income or support to barely make it while being put down by neighbors, teachers, church members, professionals and even kids who have just learned to button their own coats (slight exaggeration here) - who else will? I'm glad my post was supportive to you. We need it. I know why women say that if they'd known what was going to happen, they'd never have become mothers. It isn't so much our kids, its all the outside ridiculousness that comes with the word "Mother."

I will see what I can find and get back with ya!

Thank you.  I just love the various walks of life our members come from and the knowledge they impart.  I do hope there is something about it.  I've never seen these birds in a group in my garden eating those seeds.  I have had cone flowers out there for a number of years.

After what I have experienced in the last 24 hrs, I needed this. Thank you so much, grateful2be.

Thank you grateful2be for your ESH. You have helped me more than you know.

You rock!!

Dear Rose and Ignutah: Much encouragement, support and understanding being sent to you - Mother to Mother - and many prayers for your children, too.

I would never get this ESH in AA.