The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Gosh, Jack!!!! So much pain here and I can certainly understand it from your perspective. I don't know how long she has been in AA, but if only a short time - 1 to 2 years - her behaviors can change to include her family once again. It is true that being sober is the primary work of the newly recovering and AA meetings and fellowship the lifeline. The wife of Bill W also felt the way that you do and started Al-Anon because of it as I understand Lois and her experiences.
"Getting Them Sober," by Toby Rice Drews - there are 4 volumes that I have found - are a big help to read. Al-Anon meetings for you may be helpful, too, if you aren't already attending them? We need all the support and help we can get - both before, during and after our qualifiers get sober. Thanks for your honest share. You're not alone. Many of us have felt the way you do now. This, too, can pass.
As I understand it, the drinking isn't the problem as much as it is the root that is the problem. AA helps folks get in touch with that root and it takes time just as Al-Anon helps those recovering identify the root causes for their behaviors. Before Al-Anon, I had the idea that all "our problems" stemmed from my husband's issues. It took me awhile to see my own issues and to deal with them. I was sick, too, and needed to see that and deal with it. Hard to look at. Life giving to admit it. Still growing after many years. Don't think I'll ever win the perfect human being award, but I'm getting better one day at a time.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 18th of August 2013 11:02:54 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 18th of August 2013 11:26:51 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 18th of August 2013 03:44:36 PM
I get it, that she finally decides to stop drinking (after many antics, I'm sure) and now she's off spending her time doing something else. There's a big difference between not drinking, and sobriety / recovery. If she is in the early stages, the only way she may be able to maintain sobriety is to immerse herself in AA. Alcoholics are not known for their strength and self-discipline, just sayin. She may be hanging on to AA like a lifeline. Doesn't mean you have to like it, though.
It just is a tough road being in a marriage or any relationship with an A.
In time, she may be able to see beyond the end of her nose. She may not. I'm not sure AA is the cause of her issues, or if it is just another symptom of this crazy disease...
I hear your anger...and that anger will eat you up. You deserve better. Alanon WILL help you find some tools to deal with your situation, and focus on the things you can control...for YOU. You may not agree with everything you hear or read, but for the most part, people are really helpful, and man have we been there too.
It's time to get off the train to crazy town...so this crap doesn't kill you from the stress...
Oh, and if someone is harsh with you about your anger...please understand how much many of us would give anything to be in your shoes...with the A in our lives immersed in AA. So many of the folks here are watching this disease take their loved ones...so it may be difficult to be empathetic to someone who's A is in somewhat of a better place.
keep coming back,
RP
-- Edited by rehprof on Sunday 18th of August 2013 01:00:21 PM
-- Edited by rehprof on Sunday 18th of August 2013 01:01:06 PM
I read with interest the account of "James" family being destroyed through AA's infliction into his wife's life. I have had the exact experience.
I am happy beyond description that my wife quit drinking. She certainly would have met with a disastrous ending However, she has become a complete narcissist. Her only concern is her 12 steps and her AA buddies. Before she was giving and open for discussion, there is no discussion now, I have become a worthless blight in her world. We enjoyed going places, being with our kids and grandchildren, cooking out, going to movies, but no more. AA has taught her to care about 2 things, herself and her fellow travelers in AA. It is so bad that her children have asked her not visit.
For those who say alcoholism is a disease, you are nuts. It is an addiction problem, my wife has traded her addiction to alcohol for her addiction to this cult. AA claims to have its participants appeal to their higher power, the only higher power they believe in is the group.
Too bad, the cure, in my wife's case is destruction of our family.
What I hear is that she used alcohol to escape, and now she uses AA to escape.
__________________
I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
What I heard was a giant 'What about me in all this? I'm irrelevant now, I don't have a say, my family is destroyed'.... Who's really being a narcissist? You are a grown ass man and it's up to you to take care of yourself, not her. I get you're frustrated but this rant made you look very childish and immature.
Your wife seeking recovery isn't about you. it's about her. This is what she needs right now. Not to appease you and your neediness. What's stopping you from visiting your family? Taking them to the beach?....... Exactly.
AA is a fellowship of people there to support each other in a time of need. If she signs over your house and all your bank accounts to 'the leader', than you can call it a cult all you want.
Welcome to MIP/Alanon, It is my opinion from my experience with alcoholics, that they are by nature self indulgent and self centered.
All of us here are living or have lived with the disease of Alcoholism. Recently my X husband passed away from this disease. 58 years old. I would trade places with you in a heartbeat, I wished that he had embraced AA like your wife. We were married for 26 years and most of those years drinking years. He was attending AA, but the compulsion to drink was stronger.
During this time , did you ever consider a program of recovery for yourself, being that this disease effects everyone it comes in contact with. Spouses, Parents, children, friends, everyone.
I'm going to be blunt with you, which would you rather, your wife dead or alive, because this is a progressive disease which only leads to insanity or death. I applaud your wife for having the courage to stop.
I applaud you for trying to seek answers, I encourage you to attend an open Alanon meeting and still come to this open forum to post your concerns, we have more experienced people than me who can answer and give their experiences, strengths , and hopes. There are lovely members who have been in AA and Alanon who can best advise you.
Sorry I was harsh Jack. I hope you'll accept my amends.
I have read instances where al-anon was refered to as a cult and it's not a comparison I take to lightly.
You have a family, grandkids, a sober wife, a good job, a home and a vehicle (assumption). You have it all. Yet, you still manage to feel sorry for yourself and play victim.
My alcoholic was a single father who just got his second dui. I know what loneliness and fear is firsthand.
As was recommended, I suggest checking out an al-anon face to face meeting.
Aloha Jack...welcome to the board and thank God for you angst which urged you to come here and vent. I read your post and I think of the word "alternatives" which is part of my experience also. I did and felt what you have done (vent and rant) about my alcoholic/addict wife "trading addictions" and leaving me jealous. I wanted to be the one to "fix" her and was abandoned for a group of strangers. "They" were really weird and I hated "them". Ever been to an open AA meeting? I suggest you go.
The one absolutely insane thing that I did was send my wife out of her recovery back into drugs and alcohol. I did it with my anger and my rage and my jealousy and my lack of complete understanding about the "disease" of alcoholiism. I did what the disease directed me to do under it's own conditions. My wife came home one night after a meeting in a condition of ambivilance and she did the one thing necessary for the disease to win. She came to me and asked the question "Do you think I am an alcoholic"? You know what my response was right? You would use it yourself maybe and maybe even thought it already to get back at it, them, her.
I said "no"...and the consequence was (there are always consequences to what we do and don't do) she went back out on another 5 year run. Everything that was left in our relationship and marraige including faith and hope that we would make it went out the door. There was nothing left...not even my willingness to live...I even lost that. Alcoholism is considered...Cunning, Powerful and Baffling...it is all of that.
If I had responded to that question honestly, with no grain of self centeredness and ego and pride my response would have been "I don't know. Let me go find out about alcoholism and after a time come back and attempt to answer", the outcome might have been different and then in hindsight it became what it is.
I suggest from my own expiernces (which is wide including college courses on the disease) that you continue to come here and attend open Al-Anon and AA meetings for a 3 month period of time before you so that you can some to understand some of what we already have learned and what recovering alcoholics have also before you fix within yourself that "you know". That isn't possible is it?
Good to have you here and thanks for the memory of the time when I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know and then changed it. ((((hugs))))
When I saw "When a man loves a woman", I came to understand the warnings that people gave regarding an addict, cleaning him or herself up, becoming sober.
I know my A is an addict and, obsessed with himself. Why else would he choose to ruin the family unit, correction, TRY to make the family unit about him.
I'd still rather see sober, peaceful home. One that does not require trying to 2nd guess what might happen.
I think I get you though. I'm sorry you are having a hard time with this. I don't know how long she has been clean; I haven't finished reading the thread. I do believe it will lighten eventually. I think she is probably relieved to find oneness with her addiction.
Hi Jack,
I totally understand where you are coming from. You say that you are completely happy that she has sought recovery for herself, but that now she is a total narcissist.
My hubby told me that he would forever keep his AA business HIS business and not tell me a word about it or any of his friends that he meets there. He has occasionally slipped and I have heard of some ladies that "are so grateful for his wonderful advice"..... But I have stayed out of his business. He has been in it for 13 years now. I met a few of his AA fellows when he had cancer and they came to the hospital to visit with him. They came into his room and I didn't know any of them except I had met his sponsor at a church once. They seemed very surprised that I had never heard their names before or knew that they knew my hubby.
As far as your kids are concerned.... their relationship with their mother is between their mother and them. It is HER problem. So you have to stay out of it. But keep on staying close to your kids yourself. No matter what she does, the kids don't deserve losing a grandpa too. My grandkids are very close to me.... not so much to their grandpa but it is his problem, not mine. He doesn't see it as a problem. I prefer my kids have a happy relationship with me. I love my grandkids and want to know them. I will do what I need to do to stay close to them....even if grandpa doesn't. (But he sees me happy and wonders what I have that he doesn't have!!)
You know it's not about you?! If it wasn't AA it would be something else. It is all about what she wants. It is not AA that has done this to her. It is her reaction to what is being said in her meetings. You (a normal person) could go to those same meetings and get something totally different from what is being said. She is interpreting it to be what she wants it to be.
DO NOT GIVE UP THE THINGS YOU LOVE! Yes, you may not be able to do them with her, but you can still travel. You can still cook out. You can visit the kids. You can see the movies. Do it all anyway. (Can you imagine having a cookout in your backyard with friends and having it all be your own plans? If she comes home in the middle of it then she can have her own reaction, like it or not. Who cares?)
I always say, the best revenge is living a happy life. Be happy in spite of her. Make yourself happy. It is actually quite freeing to be able to plan things and not have to work around her in your plans.
For those who say alcoholism is a disease, you are nuts. It is an addiction problem, my wife has traded her addiction to alcohol for her addiction to this cult. AA claims to have its participants appeal to their higher power, the only higher power they believe in is the group.
Too bad, the cure, in my wife's case is destruction of our family.
I am glad you found us at MIP! This is not the first time someone has called our program a cult, however no one I have met that has attended meetings regularly thinks that way now. Until you attend some al-anon meetings for yourself and some open A.A. meetings you won't get it. It is normal to be angry with all the changes going on. I hope you are able to open yourself up to finding out for yourself if this recovery program can help you the way it has helped me and so many others. Sending you love and support on your journey!
-- Edited by Breakingfree on Sunday 18th of August 2013 11:11:21 PM
__________________
Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
Newcomers in AA typically pass through a phase where they need to live in an AA bubble of sorts. It beats her dying from her alcoholism. After a year or two immersed in AA, the person then starts negotiating the rest of the world better. She's like a toddler now in terms of coping skills and emotional maturity. She was every bit as narcissistic in her drinking but it may not have appeared that way. I would say the first two years of recovery are characterized by a person acting similar to how you describe. I empathize but suggest be patient and work on meeting you own needs and go to alanon. Recovery is rocky but it sure beats ongoing active addiction.
When they first get into recovery it is "butt to the wall" work 24/7 to be sober...to re-train the mind....Be GLAD she is sober and not killing herself
If I were you, I would get into alanon, and I , too, take exception to this being called a "cult"...Alanon saved my life....It is saving me now...I was soo much sicker b4 I came here....and yea, I have discovered some "not so gr8" things about me but this program taught me how to face it, accept it, work on it.....I can only CHANGE ME....
You need to get into alanon, work YOUR program, your steps, and your meetings and discover how to take care of yourself.....
Slogan Jim said what he said tought, but he was spot on....You have much to be greatful for....she is gonna LIVE if she stays in the program and works hard
Trust me...Things will level out if you give her some time..Mean while?? Alanon and its healthier thinking await you...its up to you...I wish my A#2 had gotten into AA...We would be still together now...But I kicked him out b/c he chose a slow death w/drinking rather then a life with me....
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Jack, welcome.It's good you came here to share with us. For some of us have felt or still feel like you describe right now. I guess it has to do with our expectations. We expect things to change in our favor, when A's become sober and work their program. Unfortunately, it continues being about them, they have to build up a life with new rules, boundaries, basically they are experiencing a new way of living, which is scary at times. I entered Al Anon at the same time my A entered rehab. This gave us one more year together, for different perspectives were growing on both sides.....it has been a year with up's and down's....and No we don't change our behaviors overnight, nor him, nor me. But i guess we both grew...in awareness about our actions and situation. That gave us both more possibilities towards a healthy life. Now, I don't really know where he is currently at, with his emotional sobriety. It is true he spends more time out with new friends now, more activities where I'm not included...and that's why I say, i understand what you are describing very well, I felt the same. It's self-pity. And we are actually free to choose if we want to stay in such a relationship or we are needing other things for our healthy life. what I did was, continuing working my program, exploring new techniques of getting in touch with myself, yoga, meditation, traveling...meeting new people also, those who are 'seeing' me, and love me for exactly who I am. So yes, i saw it coming and it was scary....all this meant for our couple, that we were growing apart in the process... so much that at some point I kind of refused to work on myself. But what I gained with giving myself up for the sake of accommodating somebody else, was more pain, suffering, low self-esteem, and I exposed myself to more abuse. You see, if and when we don't love ourselves and stand strong for ourselves and respect ourselves enough, our partner will kind of do the same, because he sees we are doing it to ourselves too. So i decided 2 weeks ago to take the step in the direction of my own recovery, recognizing clearly that I have wrong attitudes towards relationships. I don't want to be in the position to be rescued or entertained or been taken care of. It exposes me to a lot of clinging. and it brings out my worst qualities. What i try to do now, is trying to stick to my personality, doing what I want to do, with other people since A is not available. and just be the happiest me I can be. Lets see who will be around that person for longer. I have no idea...but i don't want o be dependent on other people's actions and moods anymore. I forget to live myself and I get very resentful for loosing precious time.
Give it a try, you are definitely worth it....and you can't predict the outcome ... you might be surprised.
keep coming back, in support.
Welcome to MIP- you're in the right place. So many here understand how alcoholism can wreck families and more. If only all of our hope and love could bring our exact expectations and desires to fruition!
I have come to understand that alcoholism/ addiction is very cunning, powerful, and baffling. There is no cure; it is progressive and only stopped by abstinence and program support that tackles underlying character weaknesses (I also suspect that your wife's narcissism was previously present, but now may have bubbled to the top). There are three choices where alcoholism is involved: abstinence and working a program, insanity, or death. Those affected who attend AA are fighting for their life- some better equipped than others- we hope and pray that our loved ones are graced with the ability to work hard at their program and grow towards a better life. Just starting to have exposure to the AA program, she needs to learn the basics. Being around sponsors and AA members who can understand her may be her best or only chance.
Alcoholism/ addiction affects everyone in contact, and, is for most of us, too much to handle on our own. Thankfully, there is Alanon! Please learn as much as you can, attend Alanon meetings; grab a sponsor and work the steps, read the MIP boards- use the search function for specific topics and keep posting here, Toby Rice Drew's Getting them Sober- is an easy read packed with helpful information. Alanon has made many of our lives better ( the steps, different perspectives, emotional support, learning life tools, etc) - give it at least 6 months and don't leave before you notice some improvements.
Alanon acknowledges that we don't all think alike. Every meeting closes with the suggestion of taking what you like and leaving the rest. I left everything for several meetings, didn't get it, and returned to Alanon many years later. It was the only place I could go. I'm so glad I did because it was then that I started hearing and understanding how to apply the principles of Alanon. The disease thing didn't always sit well with me. One of the reasons why you may hear that alcoholism is a disease is because alcoholism does change the processes in the brain and in thought patterns. At the top of the board, you'll find a sticky that has a short explanation video.... another reason is that it may be helpful to think of it as a disease- not as an excuse, but to stop the mind from unhealthy churning....but perfectly ok if you disagree
I wanted to add also that Narcissism, the word is thrown around quite a bit it seems for anyone who is considered selfish and self serving. Narcissism is a real mental disorder and you have to be diagnosed to be pronounced a Narcissist.
My first husband was diagnosed Narcissist, its a complete different disorder than what Jack is describing. Narcissists can even be borderline criminals and they are usually borderline personalities.
I don't think its is good to throw that word around unless you know for sure.
After many years in both AA and Al-Anon I can say that many marriages or relationships don't survive. Why? Because to start with... neither program is a professional marriage or relationship counseling service. Many times people get sober and realize that they don't like or love their spouse any more than they did as a drunk, (maybe even less) and many times the alcoholic gets sober, and their spouse don't like or love them any more than before because in the absence of several years of sobriety based in "recovery", the alcoholic is still very absorbed in themselves and can't see past their own nose. The problems in a marriage or relationship, usually starts and escalates before either the alcoholic or al-anon entered the rooms of recovery. However, some suspect that just because sobriety comes into play, or the other gets involved in Al-Anon that the marital problems will instantaneously get resolved as a by product of it. Instead, what happens is the alcoholic is finally doing all they can to make it through a day without a drink, and staying sober "this time" by surrounding and embedding themselves in the program. Truly being committed to it, and doing what millions of others have done is like stepping onto another planet for the alcoholic. For the untreated Al-Anon, their life was and is still so consumed with the alcoholic that they don't even show up to try to live their own life. For them this would be like stepping onto a another planet as well. Instead they try to cling to the alcoholic as they did before sobriety, in so many unhealthy ways and for so many unhealthy reasons that the alcoholic does appear to desert the relationship on several levels because they realize can not get well staying in a home full of sickness and untreated "dis-ease".
One of the greatest communalities a couple can have is the 12 steps and the principles by which they are both trying to live their individual lives. Couple that with the 12 Traditions and the spiritual principles that bring us to a place of looking at the common good of the whole in regards to our relationships with others and this place called Earth becomes a pleasant planet to live on again. Maybe better than ever before.
A marriage is about sharing our lives together. In order to do that, both people in it need to have a life of their own to share with the other. They are sharing "their" lives, not his or hers, but theirs. (Plural)
In order to do that we have to have one of our own or get one of our own. Then we have something to truly share with each other.
Lastly, I note that the person who posted this thread to begin with has never posted before or since this one. Not even acknowledging the time and support so many of us has provided here for them. It appears they are feeling very neglected emotionally, possibly physically, and becoming very resentful. They don't appear to know what the hell to do with themselves now. I hope that their addiction to their drug...the alcoholic, will make them sick enough that they will join Al-Anon and find a new way of life for themselves, just as alcoholism made the alcoholic so sick and tired that they jump into the rooms of AA as though their lives or at least the quality of it absolutely depended on it. Because it does.
Complaining about how someone else was living their lives, never made mine any better at all. Looking at how I was living my own life did.
John
-- Edited by John on Monday 19th of August 2013 11:16:41 AM
__________________
" And what did we gain? A new life, with purpose, meaning and constant progress, and all the contentment and fulfillment that comes from such growth."
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a DSM IV disorder. It's a personality disorder and within the field it's debated as to the realness of the disorder as it's mostly behaviorally based and likely not genetic. It overlaps with borderline personality disorder because they are on the same cluster of personality disorders (overemotional dramatic personality disorders). Histrionic personality disorder is the 3rd one in that cluster. Other personality disorders include avoidant personality disorder, dependent personality disorder, paranoid personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder...and we do use those words in our common vernacular so...I dunno. Narcissist is just less common as would be Schizoid personality disorder - I never hear folks other than clinicians tossing around the term "Hey that person is schizoid" (basically a loner). I think there is a difference between describing the trait and labeling the person a Narcissist. For me, I have to watch out cuz the act of diagnosing and judging people IS narcissistic at times. I have not had a sit down eval and heard their side to know so yeah... Good points though Bettina. In grad school we are warned that most disorders are just conglomerations of traits and the labels are for communication puposes with other professionals. With some disorders - ie, autism, schizophrenia, alcoholism - it's much clearer what the disorder consists of.
Some people in AA develop a misconception of what recovery really is...it is not about a selfish chip or medallion...it is not about status in AA...it is about healing our wounds and being of service in all areas of our lives...
But it is not an overnight matter.
Be patient please, but above all please consider Alanon...I believe you are doing that if you're here.
I would consider Al-anon because what she is doing is maybe the only thing that will save her life. Hopefully in time she will come to realize that there is more to life than AA. but for now AA is her only hope.
Going to Al-anon will help you realize what YOU are going though and how much help you need. Two separate lives that need understand and love to come together again.
Take care and keep coming back because you are not alone....
__________________
Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
This reminds me of a pity party I had when my husband was going through IOP (intensive outpatient program. I had al anon, but did not have this forum. I required surgery shortly after my husband sought treatment from multiple substances...the timing sucked but it was what it was. Our HP's work in ways we do not understand. Anyway, my surgery occurred and I returned home with strict restrictions. It involved hormonal issues, so on top of the surgery I was whacko from the hormonal stuff. So, there I was sitting day and night alone, trying to tend to my basic self care needs and not being able to lift, sneeze, cough, go to the bathroom etc without incredible pain while my husband worked all day and attended treatment at night. I had two adolescent kiddos at home, who were totally self absorbed and, since, I was still a martyr, I would not ask for their help. I was one pissed off hormonal woman wallowing in self pity. So, I decided that I would show "them"! One day, I grabbed my blanket and pillow and headed to my wrangler jeep (I was not supposed to drive and my jeep was a bumpy ride) and off I went; intending to sleep in my jeep. On the way out, my son says, "you aren't supposed to drive"...I said "watch me!" I went to the library, fell asleep on one of the chairs until it closed, then I headed to Barne's and Noble. I was hurting and sick, but I so wanted to punish my husband for not taking care of ME. If I had been able to get to my meetings and get support through this forum, I believe I would not have made this recovery time so difficult for my husband. He needed to take care of him, not me, during this time and he did the best he could. I see that now.
Your wife is doing the best she can and so you are you with the tools you are accessing. You now need different tools....reach for those tools of recovery for YOU. Those tools have been well spelled out here. keep coming back...it works if you work it and you are worth it. (((hugs)))
At around 3 monthish - maybe sooner - sober... It hit me like a ton of bricks. First it was all about me and my drinking. Then it was all about me and my recovery. I did my 90 in 90 and got dramatically better. I focused on letting him heal - and staying out of it. That alone took support - because I was the healthier one at this point. Over time, with both of us working our individual programs - and sometimes working our program in support of each other together (yes we talk about recovery stuff and support each other and help each other), we have learned where to step and where not to step. Things are going along very smoothly for the most part. We had a bump in the road about a month ago when a tragedy struck our family, but we each had our programs and sponsors to turn to when we realized that we weren't going to be able to be there for each other very well until we did our own stuff with our own 'people'. Then after a couple weeks, we were able to come back together in love and support for each other, and share with one another where we were and what we were doing about stuff, and what we could do together... a basic check in with each other - offering love and support for each other because we had sufficiently took responsibility for our own stuff so there was some now to give to each other.
The key factor in all of this - and the real turning point for both of us, was to get involved in both programs. When that happened about a 9 months ago - we both started learning to walk our own paths and be responsible for ourselves. Now, we are a compliment to one another. We know how to be happy without each other, and we know we'll be okay no matter what's going on with the other person. We know HOW to be okay - and let each other just be the cherry on top the cake. NOT THE CAKE ITSELF.
Once I got started regularly doing AA and Alanon - and he did too - and we started doing open meetings together, we became team mates, and there was no more US AGAINST YOU on either side. We were just a part of recovery - no matter which program we were in. Steps are steps. Meetings are meetings. Recovery is recovery no matter how many letters are on the name at the door. We show up to see what we can offer, not what we can take anyway.
I go to more alanon meetings when he is having trouble with his program and spiraling backward or when I'm going to be hanging around my Dad when he's drinking. This has been HOW I have been able to stay with him, love him for who he is, where he is - and accept what is. He would say the same. I'm grateful I came to alanon, I doubt I would have been able to stay married if I hadn't - and it's been better than ever - and better than I could have dreamed.
Thats ok, I was also referring to Jack who also called his wife a narcissist. Just that Narcissism is much more
than that. I grew up with it, being my Mom self indulgent and self serving, but now that I caretake her that stuff gets magnified, I feel she is a narcissist and I didnt notice it when I was young, because I detached at an early age.
