The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
((((Clear)))) for me using the filter of a former therapist...No one can be as open and honest as you have been here and be a fraud at the same time. You are not a fraud because the consequence of what you are doing isn't working out well for you. Someone else is in your story and you would only feel like a fraud unless you thought that the proof was in the pudding and he is your pudding. He isn't and you are ready to leave. Often time the poster comes up with the right perspective and even solution at the end of their post. I see or think that you have also done it here. He isn't the reason that you have not left...you are the reason...what iffing? second guessing? false hoping? fearing?. I won't judge you...I can only offer my own personal experience prior to the program for why I clutched and hung on to a hopeless alcoholic/addict who practiced the disease long before I met her. She had more experience practicing the disease than I ever had trying to live with it much less trying to fix it. My ego and pride were working on false evident which eventually started to appear real to me. You don't should like or present like a fraud...more practice of the program as directed by literature, sponsor and meetings and of course MIP and someday you will arrive at the chant, "Free at last...Free at last...Thank God!! I'm free at last" as I eventually came to recite. It was fear that held me captive. You are not a fraud. We'll continue to love you until you come to love yourself. Keep coming back....(((((hugs)))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Saturday 17th of August 2013 04:58:20 PM
I'd like to know what you ladies & gents think about my being here, and my situation. I feel like a fraud (again, like I did 15 years ago with my first try at Al-Anon). I absolutely love this board. It has been a life- and sanity-saver for me. I learned codependent behavior from my Mother in my childhood but think over the past year I have made some good progress getting healthy, mostly due to this board, rather than the f2f meetings.
What is bringing me back here time and again in anguish is my present long-term relationship (10 years now). I got into this relationship immediately after getting divorced from my Ex-AH. I was not healthy back then and looking back, would have seen the red flags in this relationship if I had worked Al-anon for a few years first. Present BF is teetotal. However, he has a whole host of other emotional problems that make him very difficult to live with (we don't live together), or for him to hold down a job for very long. He is also a hoarder, which makes it very hard for me to feel good about visiting him. I believe he has strong narcissistic traits which would explain why my then very codependent self was drawn to him like a pathetic, sick magnet.
Obviously there are some great areas of our relationship where we do connect emotionally and intellectually. But when I read people's experiences with their A S.O.'s here on the board, I recognize the exact same issues in my 'dry' relationship. It's kind of frustrating because I can't blame it on drink! I can't say 'It's a cunning, baffling disease that he has'. Or maybe I can? I just don't know what the heck it is. I am dealing with many things in my relationship that I know if I can ever get myself out of it (hop on the bus, Gus?), I will never stand for again: blame, guilt-tripping, secrecy, wanting to know too much, overstepping privacy boundaries, control issues (which I have learned to avoid and always make sure I have an 'out' for myself), disdain at just about everything I do, attempted gaslighting (which doesn't work on me anymore! Yay MIP), lawyer-like cross examinations (which I just extricate myself from now), and other things. There is no infidelity, physical abuse or substance abuse. I don't drink either because I hate the taste of alcohol and it makes me ill for days.
I am annoyed with myself for not having been able to end this relationship. I have actually ended it a few times but we got back together. I am trying to be patient with myself and trust that when I am ready, I will do it. But I feel stuck because I am in denial about the reality of who he is versus who I think he CAN be, if only...
So I feel like a fraud for being here but I really want to hear from any of you who may have any insights here? You all are the most emotionally smart people I've ever come across. I gave up on therapists a long time ago and besides, I can't afford it.
While writing this I am terrified that he will find it and read it.
I have made progress in the last year with telling him how I feel about anything and everything, and knowing that his angry brainstorms from my opinions are his own deal, that I didn't cause them, can't control or cure them. I have always kept my finances separate from his. I support myself 100%. I feel good about how honest I am with myself and him about my thoughts - no more cowering or tiptoeing. But I'm still in denial about the 'if only's.
It's hard to ask for advice on an internet board regarding this, because it usually elicits a 'dump the *$%*#@*' response, which is unhelpful and usually sends the OP on the defense with 'Aw he's not THAT bad after all'. This is why this place rocks, because you all know that already.
Am I a fraud for being here, or is there another board (where the members are as smart and gentle as you guys?) that can help with this in a teetotal situation? I feel like I swapped an alcoholic for a teetotaler, and that's the only difference.
I'm in my forties and don't really care any more about meeting Mr. Right.
Thanks Working and Mimi! One reason I keep flunking out of Al-Anon is that I feel like I have no reason to get myself a sponsor! But I think there is someone I could ask. It's kind of nerve-wracking really. Not being involved with a stumbling around, falling-down drunk, I feel like I don't really have it THAT bad, or not as bad as others. But I should work on that, and see about finding a different meeting to go to. One that I feel better at.
I see what you mean, Pinkchip, and I do very much appreciate your input. It is a very limited type of emotional availability. It's like a flood of the same kind of emotion, with little room for tolerance, grace or generosity. (I just reread what you wrote again and it really helps. Managing rather than supporting. Wow!)
Ok I'm going to go write myself some things I can repeatedly come back to instead of going in the same circles.
Thank you all so much.
ETA: I just reread all the replies and made some great notes to think about. Thank you all.
-- Edited by ClearTheFog on Saturday 17th of August 2013 10:15:58 PM
Hi and thanks for posting and reminding me of the simple truth, that as a codependent I had a sick attraction to narcissists.
when I got involved with a narcissist 3 years ago I was at a very fragile place. I was coming out of denial about my family At Step 5. I was told, "You won't be done until you're done and I hope you don't have to relapse over it." Unfortunately no one around me had the wisdom to see why I was doing what I was doing and I certainly didn't get it myself -- why I could not just STOP.
Melodie Beattie says when we rescue people we are really about to victimise ourselves and there should be a huge STOP sign in front of us.
What I was doing was trying to recreate unfinished business with my parents through this guy. I was using the guy and trying to change him because I couldn't change my parents. That was my selfishness.
i needed to stop confusing my parents' faces with that of this guy's face. I needed a little help in ACA to find compassion for my parents and ACCEPT that they were harmed by others but also use Alanon tools to deal with them today. I needed to FORGIVE my parents and stop wishing it had all gone down differently. I needed to ACCEPT that they still try to harm me so they could no longer affect me (even though I still put up with their stuff.) I needed to LOVE my parents, not be in a dishonest "relationship" with some guy who just kept my misery secured.
when I said I was going to end it with the narcissistic guy I kept going back until he got psychopathically violent. Please don't do that with this guy. End it and go NO CONTACT. Email me if you need to. Heal, sister. God has while waiting for you you can't even imagine.
Hmmm...this is my take on this one... we suggest to new members that they take in 6 to 8 meetings to see if Alanon is for them.
I think that new members should do this also to see if they qualify. Alcoholism is a cunning baffling illness and we often do not see this at the beginning.
Mostly we do think that we are the problem, or something else...
...I also think that it is best to do Steps 1,2, and 3 in the group... to learn to bond, to trust and to identify- and yes I think the next four steps require a sponsor...
Someone that is a hoarder also has serious emotional issues so the theme is dating and dealing with emotionally immature and possibly emotionally unavailable men. After the A, my next relationship was with a lying sex addict. I tried to make him into longterm relationship material but it wasn't meant to be. No you are not a fraud. Just human like the rest of us. It is hard and scary to know when to compromise vs when to draw boundaries vs when to move on. None of us has all the right answers.
Deb, you have the best criteria, loving the board and wanting to be here. The wanting to improve your situation and your
open mindedness thats all you need.
Hi, CtF: Many folks (especially women) often fear that if people found out who they really were, no one would love them, so often we wear masks. I don't think that makes us frauds when we notice we're afraid of being ourselves as much as it makes us aware that we need help to become more true to ourselves and let go of trying to adapt ourselves to every person or situation we find ourselves in. As we grow, we can also outgrow relationships that were once very important to us and we have to let go of those, too. That doesn't make us wrong or a fraud. It just makes us healthy and aware.
My own experience in relationships has been that of learning more about a person after dating them and finding out that I'm not interested in them for long-term, but do see they have qualities that I like and that help to pull forth the best in me. I generally have to tell myself the truth first, feel my feelings, ask for guidance and then courage to mean what I say, say what I mean and not say it mean. It is kinder to be honest with somebody and stick to that honesty than to keep returning to somebody out of loneliness, fear, second guessing or even pity and sets both parties free to walk that path that is theirs to walk.
I've learned that focusing on myself rather than the other person ie what is important to me in a relationship rather than what is wrong with the other person is also kinder in the long-run for both of us and helps me keep my side of the street cleaner. And I couldn't always do that. I can now.
WTI: Please define what you mean by 100% spiritual thing? The word spiritual can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. What does it mean for you as it relates to this share? If you don't mind defining it for us?
. I got into this relationship immediately after getting divorced from my Ex-AH. I was not healthy back then and looking back, would have seen the red flags in this relationship if I had worked Al-anon for a few years first.this place rocks, because you all know that already.
Am I a fraud for being here, or is there another board (where the members are as smart and gentle as you guys?) that can help with this in a teetotal situation? I feel like I swapped an alcoholic for a teetotaler, and that's the only difference.
I'm in my forties and don't really care any more about meeting Mr. Right.
Dear Clear
I copied the above statement because it is your ticket to claiming your chair here ,at MIP and in all the alanon rooms throughout the world.. Alanon's 3RD Tradition states that "The only requirement for membership is that there is/was a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend. . You qualify.
Thanks, WTI. That would be the Al-Anon program which is a spiritual program with traditions and principles for us to practice, practice, practice as Jerry says? The program has helped me grow in relationships. And Clear-the-Fog, as Betty says, keep coming back and sharing. You're part of the MIP Family and with f2f meetings you'll surely experience what Jerry and others are saying - you'll come to love yourself as we already love you. A fraud to me is someone who says and does things for mostly materialistic gain. You are seeking help in growing through the effects of this disease.
Two different things to me. (((CTF)))
Thanks everybody so much for the replies. I feel touched. There are certainly some things here I need to keep coming back to, such as knowing that I can't fix him or change him, and neither should I want to. The three C's was the first thing I learned and yet it's the easiest thing for me to forget from a point of view of actions. That is, I'm saying "I didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it" while I'm doing something for someone that they can/should be doing themselves.
Well I feel somewhat lost, but less so now from all your wonderful replies.
My ex-AH was the definition of emotionally unavailable, but my present BF is the exact opposite, in an overbearing, too available, too sharing, too in my business kind of way. I hesitate to say 'controlling' because everybody can be perceived as controlling by someone, so it's subjective. I have solved this problem by keeping him at arm's length but this also means there is no living-together kind of future here. I am a coward for not telling him that. He is supportive of me going to al-anon. It's not all bad, but it is about 50-50 terrible/great. I just wish I could get myself out of this mess.
Clear, one of the hardest things I've had to learn is to stop calling myself names, and quit judging myself so harshly. Maybe you need the same thing? If you are looking for help that is a good thing. A number of years ago I attended a CODA (Codep. Anonymous) meeting online. That was a great help also. Help is good. Be nice to yourself, Lyne
ClearTheFog: This is such a honest and open share from you. There is another Al-Anon slogan that I find helpful: When in doubt, don't. If you aren't ready to move on from this relationship, you just aren't. That's okay, too. We tend to do things when we're really ready to do them and not a minute before. Please keep coming back. You're part of our family.
Thank you for the kind replies. Yes ok. No more self-flagellation. .
I have definitely been following the "When in doubt, don't" advice for a few years now.
I need to get back in touch with HP.
I may look into some CODA stuff. I think I did but for some reason found Al-Anon more fitting for me, maybe due to my 13 years of sweeping-it-under-the-carpet marriage.
I'd say a super contolling person is also not that emotionally available cuz they don't give you room to go through your stuff and they want to manage rather than support. At ends of extremes you find similarities.
Hello CleartheFog - I find the 12 steps useful in a lot of areas besides the alcohol/alcoholism one. Defining my powerlessness in a situation can be pretty liberating. And the concept of learning and understanding my own boundaries, my own wants and needs and not filling my life with people who are counterproductive to my achieving my goals is useful so much further than just "not dating an alcoholic". It isn't just a non-alcoholic I want in my life; its an honest, chivalrous, grown-up man who likes to laugh at the same things I do, understands that I need my space to be truly happy, knows that just because I don't talk doesn't mean I'm mad.... ; I want a non-smoker, non-liar, non-____________; whatever boundaries and qualities I choose in order to get someone who is right for ME. I want to be able to identify the problems with someone and brainstorm the solutions with humor and kindness and love. I read posts on here and it helps solidify my thinking about my life and what I want in my whole life, not just in the alcoholic areas; and, it helps me understand that I am worthy of getting exactly the kind of man I want!
Your post also makes me think of the phrase "waiting for the other shoe to drop" (not being able to enjoy the good thing because you just know the shoe of doom will drop anytime soon).
If you are here because you get something from being here, that's good enough for me!
__________________
I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
Ilikemyheart...thanks for the comment. Yes, there's a lot of waiting and shoe-dropping going on. Sadly the wait isn't usually all that long. The list of things you want in a partner are very nice but I think at my age my opportunities are rapidly diminishing, so I'm not banking on ever finding that. It's really ok. I'm totally ok to not be in a relationship if I never meet such a person who is also available. Anyway there's no reason why I should choose to be around difficult people like that in other areas of my life, so thanks for that reminder.
Thanks, Workingthroughit. I am looking foward to getting to a meeting. The one I want to try is on Wed nights.
I'm sorry if I didn't mention everybody's name in response to your kind responses, but I do appreciate every one of you.
Cheers Clear - at my age (53 next week) I COULD worry but I choose not to because having no one is better than the having wrong one (and not knowing how or being able to get rid of him). I'm overweight, not a physically great catch except for being terminally cute, but I'm smart, nice, lively and fun; I try not to get caught up in thinking about living the next 40 years alone because projecting my future makes my HP laugh. What I won't do is settle for less just to have someone.
__________________
I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
The best partner I've ever had in my lifetime is my HP and I have known friends who married in their mid-60s and 70s and are very, very happy. We just never know, as lmh suggests, what is in our future but with HP we can trust it will be good. Glad you're going to go to a meeting, CTF. You are taking the next step into your new life however it will unfold.
Some of us will have that union in marriage and maybe children while others of us will have to lay down our human desire for that and accept that Love will come from other places.
And we always have that main Source.
As for wanting a man, I have to only focus on allowing God to help ME reach my ideal state. When that happens it is then HE will choose my partner for me and put him in my path.
I do not focus on men, I focus on my own growth and when I'm spiritually matured enough through the 12 steps I will remain open to it.
Actually I remain open anyway.
Because I not ready, He has not sent me anyone.
I've only been sent people by lucifer! LOL!!!!!!!!!' And I MEAN that! Trips and traps for my own growth!!!!!
You are not a fraud...No more then I am....No I am no longer married to any A's, I distance myself from my brothers, both A's....
so why am I here?? because I was impacted by alcoholism, but even if I wasn't...I was impacted by dysfunctional people, as a child...adult....and the lasting affects nearly killed me....Alanon saved my life....
you belong as much as I do or anyone else....you were impacted by someone who has problems...Really, I think the whole world qualifies for this wonderful, life saving program...
So PLEASE stick around....
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Thanks, Neshema. I agree with you about the whole world qualifying! When I think about it, I do have a sister who is alcoholic, but we live continents apart so I am not affected by it daily. My Maternal grandfather was the one who started it, as far as I know. He drank to forget what he saw in Italy in WWII. This affected my Mother, who affected all her kids.
I think it was BreakingFree who posted this the other day:
God, today is Your day.
may I be who You would have me be.
may I do what You would have me do.
may I go where You would have me go.
and say what You would have me say.
You've received great responses. I would like to add that it took me a long time to come to understand that I was married to an addict (alcohol and drug). So, while I knew there was dysfunction, I didn't know to come to the 12 steps of Alanon for help. I think that it is a blessing that you are here.
Please do attend face to face meetings and get a sponsor and start working the steps. Give it a chance and see how it can make a huge difference. I had left Alanon years ago, only to return and start the work. Initially, I didn't think the program was for me- for a million reasons. The truth is that it is the only place I can go to learn and be understood. Different meetings may become more empowering than others... and different people will show up over time- it's worth it and so are you.
One other thought here if I may...ask God to bring you a loving sponsor with a Solution then keep your ears and heart open to one who transmits it...it's kind of like light or energy.
If you get one or two at first who don't work out, don't give up. If you are willing to keep trying God will
Provide.
E. I believe that the only qualifier we bring into Alanon is ourselves...
.