The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
to me functioning means they can "appear" to be living a life....work...sorta of a family....friends......no visible medical problems as yet...no visible mental health issues as yet.......coherent enough to look "ok" in the public world....They can be either hard or not so hard to live with in a marriage and family
non functioning.......loss of job or refusal to find a job...inablilty to sustain what work they do find...inability to interact w/others in an acceptable manner.......mental and physical decline.....can no longer really co-exist in a working, living society....Usually they, at this stage, are very very difficult to live with and even communicate with (re: family) ....alcohol as a greater and more noticeable hold on him/her as evidenced by the above mentioned things...non functioning is kinda reaching the bottom...if they dont get immediate help, they will end up in a hospital in short time, usually with liver disease and other major organs damaged...
-- Edited by neshema2 on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 08:37:28 PM
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Now, this is interesting especially since those terms are used in the mental health field to some extent if not coined by it. I appreciate the information and really like having this new knowledge about those terms. Although I suspected the disease was more progressed in my son than my sister, this is the first time I've heard the term being seen by someone in the mental health field as an oxymoron and can see why. Thanks, PC, for the update.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 09:50:35 PM
They do however mention the four catagories or stages of alcoholism.
Its listed in the Big Book on the bottom of page 108, chapter 8, "To Wives"
too much to type here, but so enlightening. You might want to read it.
The Big Book is very important to our recovery. Hope you get a chance to get the book if you dont already have it.
Best in recovery. Bettina
I didnt see Jerry's 2nd post, although I'm not a professional counselor. I do have the experience of living with an
alcoholic for a number of years. And as the disease progressed, so did the drama and the problems....
I believe that drinking brings the problems, that alcoholics have no more problems then anyone else. Although they may have had abusive childhoods, I have also known people with abusive childhoods that don't drink. Also there is the pre disposition, inherited genes, which, my X, both parents were alcoholics. Which I believe plays the bigger role.
Well, thats my 2 cents worth!!
Edited by Bettina on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 10:38:10 PM
-- Edited by Bettina on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 10:39:04 PM
-- Edited by Bettina on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 10:39:29 PM
-- Edited by Bettina on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 10:58:31 PM
I think "functioning" suggests they're still going to work and still hiding their drinking from a number of people, even though those people might suspect that something is "off." As opposed to the alcoholic who has lost his job for drunken behavior, gets in regular trouble with the law, etc.
The trouble is that one tends to lead to the other.
My ex always used to claim that he wasn't an alcoholic because look, he wasn't living under a bridge like "those guys." The truth is that when you get close to a "functioning" alcoholic, you see how non-functional they are. They may be functional compared to the guy passed out under a bridge. In terms of their responsibilities, their relationships, their risky behavior, and their emotional unbalance, they're not functional compared to a regular person. They're still causing chaos and heartbreak. They're just doing it while holding down a job.
I have several siblings who drink regularly and all have jobs, pay their bills, make big salaries. To the outside world they look like they are on top of their game. But, one of them for example, starts pulling the beer out of the fridge at about 8 at night - drinks until she's totally wiped but still able to talk and then falls into bed until 12 or 1 the next day on weekends. She will not remember anything she said the night before. People love her.
She's the life of the party. She's smart, witty and gets real lovey-dovey the drunker she gets and when sober says things that can cut you like a knife. I'd call her functioning.
I have a son who can't keep a job, is in and out of trouble for various problems, whines, begs, pleads, denies, blames, criticizes, curses and can turn violent if manipulation and sweet talk doesn't get him what he wants. He's lived on the streets, in shelters, other people's homes and prison.
I'd call him non-functioning.
Both have the disease (and other siblings, too), but I'd say its more progressed in my son than in my sister.
I agree with bettina. The term is an oxymoron. All of you make valid points but an alcoholic's functioning will always be headed towards being less funtional as time goes by. Calling them functional implies they have greater control or are not as powerless when really they are just not as progressed. Functioning is also always impaired by alcoholism at any level so the term "functional" implies that there has been no loss of functioning and that is never the case.
I also agree with Bettina...I believe that the word "functioning" alcoholic is as PinkChip says an oxymoron...just the behavior of compulsively consuming a mind and mood altering chemical says that the person who is doing that isn't function...mind and mood. Don't get thrown off by hair splitting. An alcoholic who drinks and mows the lawn and goes to work and had a family that is in shards isn't functioning.
Grateful the mental health industry has often said that the alcoholic drinks the way they do because they have problems while the addictions recovery industry says just the opposite...The alcoholic and addict have problems because they addictively and compulsively drink and use.
From your own experience how would you answer.
If the family of the alcoholic and addict has problems because of anothers drinking and using how does the picture look like now? Why do these people not drink because of that problem? I'm from the addiction rehab field and had hundreds of clients most of which didn't have anymore problems than anyone else when they stopped drinking and using and because they had rid themselves of their mind and mood altering chemicals came to a much higher degree of self management than when they were drinking and using. My experience. (((((hugs))))
After reading Bettina, PC and now Jerry, I just learned a HUGE lesson and it makes sense....
I stand corrected.....You 3 make perfect sense....and yea, I was trying to split hairs., like saying one cancer isn't as bad as the other, when we know cancer destroys healthy tissue and both will kill...maybe not at the same time, but if not treated they both will do the person in, either fast or slower......................WOW....Live and learn.........Thanks everyone............
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
B & J: I accept what is said about it. I'm just surprised since the mental health field has seemed to use those terms most often and are the most noted in my location. I don't use them - except in understanding what each term has been defined as meaning - and citing examples in my post. My own thinking is that the disease progresses and my family displays different behaviors depending on the stage of the disease they are in. My Alanon groups never use the terms. We just use the word alcoholic in context. In real life, I tend to think of an alcoholic as a person who has the disease of alcoholism/drug addiction. Still, I was very surprised to read the new information since the old terms have been used for quite awhile in my locale. Its fairly common place language when speaking dispassionately in groups (not Alanon) that are connected in some way to my work.
Thanks, Bettina. I've had the Big Book for many years and read it through several times. I don't use it for my own recovery now. I use the Al-Anon books that are circulated in our groups. Been in recovery since 1979 - Al-Anon & Coda - in two states. We have never used the Big Book for our own growth work. I wonder if different locations/states/groups depend more heavily on the Big Book and others - like ours - the others?
I'm not all that interested in the distinctions, since I don't use the terms, just had a working understanding of the definition, but I was surprised by both terms being an oxymoron. Boy! Its just so much fun to learn new things.
(((HUGS BACK, JERRY))) It's kind of sad to me that the mental health industry seems to get more notice than the recovery field unless you are in recovery - at least I've found that true where I've lived and worked.
J: This might explain why students in social work classes don't often learn a working vocabulary inre alcoholism/drug addiction. I've had social work students do their practicum at my place who have absolutely no knowledge of things as basic as symptoms of alcoholism/drug addiction though they have very high grades and its their 4th year of obtaining their degree. I'm also mystified by the lack of education in this field since it is a backdrop to so much of the dis-ease that occurs in families and to me should be part of the curriculum. I'm no longer mystified. Thanks, Jerry.
B: Thanks for the information about your groups in California. We don't even hear anything about the Blue Book in our groups (and this is true for multiple groups and multiple years in Alanon) unless it is used in the context of a loved one's AA recovery or we have a double-winner in our group who refers to it in their shares. Only AA people use the big book for their recovery here. So it does appear to me to be a location thing maybe?
By the way, I was in San Francisco in 2007 for 3 weeks. I was amazed at the number of Alanon groups going on throughout the City every day of the week and at multiple times at multiple locations. Where I live - there are nowhere near the number of groups or days or times - good luck finding a meeting for Alanon on a holiday - that were in San Francisco. My favorite was a Sunday night candlelight 11th Step meeting. Gives me shivers just thinking about it.
Thanks for the shares, Bettina and Jerry. I'm going to use my new knowledge about the terms when talking with students or therapists in the mental health field. What an eye opener. I think I'm going to carry this message into all my affairs. Smile.
To be fair - there are groups within the mental health field in our locale - who do believe that until their client can stop drinking, they can't get to the underlying issues. But again - that's like the reverse of what is being said by those in recovery or in the recovery work field.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 1st of August 2013 08:59:47 AM
From my experience working in the field of alcoholism and drug addiction recovery I chose to work as a behaviorist. I didn't do much real therapy work using mind and emotions. We had lots of mental health professionals from BAs to Phds using those titles after their names. Most of the Phds were directors of programs and departments and the programs and departments needed the worker ants...the grunts that got the work done and the addicts and alcoholics to enact reasonable recovery behaviors in order to meet program expectations. Their family members were also led toward more successful responses and behaviors which the disease would have greater difficulty getting over or passed.
Yes they had thoughts and feelings and we had to get the booze and drug out first because otherwise their systems were upside down. There was a thought pattern we had to deal with for a while which was "If we change their thoughts and feelings their behaviors will change....I worked with "if I help them change their behaviors their thoughts and feelings will follow the change". So often the BA and MA and Phds would asked me..."How do you do what you do"? I never found them so deeply interested in what I did that they would want to make some basis belief changes. Too bad...they wouldn't change their behaviors either. At times there was conflict and for me it didn't matter when the patient was changing and growing and meeting the program plan. They began to be regularly functional. Yay!!
I have only gone to Alanon in Los Angeles and a short time in Anaheim, what a meeting that was, powerful, in a warehouse with
300 women. Anyway, yes the blue book was a requirement with the sponsors I had. And used frequently.....
I havent been to many face to face meetings in the last 5 years, so maybe they don't use it as much now.
I love the Big Book , there are suggested prayers in there that I find very useful.
And I find so many therapists and social workers in my area that simply have not entered any type of formal or recovery program for themselves. I don't work in the mental health/recovery field - but do rub heads and shoulders with those who do. In my Alanon groups, there have been some therapists, etc who join us - but its mainly made up of people who actually work, live or love an A on a consistent basis and see what they're doing isn't working or they're hurting badly and can't find understanding or support. I guess - the same reasons we all get into recovery for ourselves. Blessings, Oldergal, for your post. I learned some new stuff and I like it. Tentative conclusion for me that recycles itself periodically - there are no true experts in any field - just folks with experience, strength and hope to share which to me is wisdom.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 1st of August 2013 11:46:16 AM
I guess you could look at someone's life and think he is functioning because he has a job and a home...... But I always think of the story of a close friend of mine, who had a baby over 40 years ago. While pregnant they discovered she was RH negative, which meant that when her baby was born, they would have to give her a shot to prevent further complications with any other babies she might have had. Well, my friend was never even told at the time that she was RH negative and after the baby came was never given a shot.
Why??? because this Dr. was an alcoholic and his memory was not functioning very well.
When her 2nd baby came, she was told she was RH negative and asked if she was given the shot. My friend freaked out. Come to find out, they tested her husband and he was also RH negative, so it worked out for my friend. But what are the odds.
That was a lucky alcoholic Dr. and how many airplane pilots are tipsy while flying ?? How about the boat accident in Italy, where the Captain was partying and coked up, running the ship aground.
I was a claims adjuster for 30 years, and most of the fatal accidents with body parts all over the road and a mangled car were caused by drinking or functioning acoholics. Even your friendly hairdresser, I use to have this young hairdresser, not even 21 who was a great little hairdresser, but always wreaked of alcohol. Finally 3 months down the line, she was no longer at the shop and out on medical leave.
Most alcoholics are not the homeless walking the streets, that is last stage most likely. Just think of all the alcoholics in your environment without you knowing. I guess the question is at what level are they functioning.?
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts. Bettina
-- Edited by Bettina on Thursday 1st of August 2013 02:19:58 PM
-- Edited by Bettina on Thursday 1st of August 2013 02:20:45 PM
I work at a University with BA's and Phd's etc. and I do respect them for the knowledge in their field, but just because they have letters after their name doesnt mean they have common sense or have really worked with drunks and alcoholic families. It is usually in a policy driven establishment. It is just like management, so many times they are in their office away from it all and don't know how the "workers" really feel and what they are really capable of. Not sure what this has to do with my original question, but this is where the posts took me. lol oldergal Just like Pinkchip, I'll bet he has letters after his name, BUT he has "been there done that".
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I totally agree that there really isn't such a thing as a "functioning" alcoholic, but I do think that people use that phrase to describe people who manage to keep a job, maintain certain relationships, etc. Oftentimes we (the loved ones) refer to that as functional alcoholism, while the alcoholics themselves just use the relative "normalcy" of their lives (and the fact that they aren't homeless junkies) as "evidence" that they aren't really alcoholics. As far as I can tell, in an alcoholic's brain (at least, MY alcoholic's brain), there is a constantly shifting line that divides what is "normal," non-addictive behavior and what would qualify as alcoholism. Funny how that line has moved farther and farther away from rational behavior as his disease has progressed...
by the word "functional" I would assume that most people are talking about external stuff; ie: environment, economic circumstances, ect. but when it comes to internal stuff, there isn't a such thing as a functional alcoholic. By most real standards the functional alcoholic still has a very strong enabler support network that is still in deep denial of the suffers condition. This is what allows them to "appear" functional.
John
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" And what did we gain? A new life, with purpose, meaning and constant progress, and all the contentment and fulfillment that comes from such growth."
does the person have problems that CAUSE the drinking????
or both???
I am kinda lost on this......
I used to drink to self medicate b4 recovery...I drank beer to "de stress" I did it a lot b/c of my unresolved pain...Drinking was the only way I could "stand" my life....Really...I had to get a buzz to be able to stand life....
THEN enter recovery..Boooy did that change me in a lot of ways......I go out to eat...go to a social function....drink a beer, but its the FOOD I am more interested in.....I dont' want to run away from my pain w/self medicating....I want to face it, confront it, work it through so it does not keep "invoicing" me over and over....thus the drinking has changed...
I just don't care about the stuff.....IF I can afford to go out to eat, I will have a beer waiting for my food...When food comes, I ask for water and never go back to the beer as I eat and enjoy my meal...
So my drinking, according to the mental health people I talked to was "symptomatic" of the deep...Unresolved and horrendous pain eating at me from the inside out...
So , for me, I gotta wonder, do they drink and get "wrecked" b/c they are running from something OR is the drinking the cause of their problems.....I am really confused about this...
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
If you look further up on this thread, you will see that Jerry discusses this very same issue. You might find some answers
there.
-- Edited by Bettina on Thursday 1st of August 2013 04:56:45 PM
I did read it and I am confused.....implies that the drinking causes the problems....I am NO expert, ..I just know for me when I got into recovery and worked through my pain, rather than numbing it out, I didn't need the drinking escape anymore....Like I don't hate life anymore so I don't wanna "wash it away" with drinking beer.....Now when I enjoy a beer it is a b4 dinner thingy or it is a visit at a neighbor's house and we sit , have a beer, chat and thats it....
Maybe I am an addict personality b/c although the beer drinking is "not my thing" anymore I did have an "issue" with certain chocolate treats like girl scout thin mints or reeses butter cups or nestlie bars.....now with all the gmo's in foods, if i can't get organic chocolate, I pass....but yea, I could sit and eat a 1/2 box of thin mints at one sitting b4 I found out all the bad ingrediants in them......
Since going organic and "cleaning up my act" food wise, I can go to grocery and stare at the chocolates and not want any of it...the reeses or the nestlie choc bars do nothing for me now b/c I think of all the junk sugar and gmo stuff in them...
There is a Whole Foods market near where I used to work...They have "sun dial" like their rendition of M&M's only theirs are organic......now THOSE I could be tempted to "indulge" in.....I remember how delicious they are...but WF is so far away from me now, I don't see myself getting their organic M&M's....Its ok...sugar is not that good for ptsd, so I hear......
I've talked w/other coda's and "food or chocolate" issues are common...Like getting comfort from that rather than my program and healthy support.....So really...Program is my life line...I even eat better/ healthier b/c of program....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Here I go again with chiming in on CAL and what kind of literature gets used in Al-Anon meetings.
AA's Big Book, while awesome and full of wonderful knowledge that can provide insight not just for A's but for their loved ones, is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature (CAL) and thus is not used in Al-Anon meetings (at least those meetings that adhere to the Traditions and Concepts.)
That said, my sponsor is also a huge advocate of utilizing AA's Big Book in my own Al-Anon recovery and I've pulled it out on many many occasions while doing my step work. However, this is done on a personal level outside of meetings.
Thanks, Aloha. I knew my Al-Anon groups had never used the Big Book or even suggested we use it. One just happened to fall into my hands by somebody who asked me to keep it for him and then he never reclaimed it. I used it as a source of knowledge and understanding and have also used it for reference at times or loaned it for reference, but didn't use it as a tool in Al-Anon. This explains why.
AA describes alcoholism as a spiritual disease and that the drinking is but a symptom of the disease.
Ahhhh , Hey Aloha, my Sponsor said something like this....I remember her mentioning "spiritual disease" and drinking is a symptom....That explains why when I got into program for alanon and coda , my needing to "escape" from my pain got less and less and also my "can't stand life" feelings got better.......Thank you....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
