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I have written before about the fears I have in regard to my husband's drinking and the drinking that goes on in his family. They are all very high functioning which makes it very easy for him to sometimes act like I am some kind of prude. His brother is visiting this week with his wife and three kids. The family get togethers totally stress me out because there is always a lot of drinking. I have come up with some tools and boundaries to help me deal with that but it is new for me so still a challenge to be strong and stick to my guns. I am still finding my way.
This week I have run into a new situation. I have 3 nieces and nephew ages 8, 11 and 14. The oldest two are girls and I think they are getting to that age where they are very aware of what the adults are doing and what kind of behaviors are "adult". I have noticed the 11 year old make three different interesting comments this week about alcohol. First, she was visiting our new house and recommended we put a bar in our family room. Then, during dinner at a restaurant she commented on how quickly the adults drank a pitcher of beer. Last night when her grandmother asked who wanted red wine with dinner she jokingly said, "Me". She is obviously very aware of what the adults are doing and has some interest in emulating that.
This totally freaks me out! I don't really ever drink anymore. I don't want to not go to family functions because family is very important to us. But, I have told my husband I will leave if the drinking goes beyond a point I am comfortable with. Tonight his whole family was going to a winery together. I am fairly certain the kids were also going. I thought about it a lot and decided I was going to have to decline because I could not spend the evening at an event where the whole purpose was drinking and act like it is all normal and OK and doesn't have huge health implications for everyone involved.
I am also really bothered about the message being sent to the kids. I do not EVER want to be a part of sending them the message that the excessive drinking that goes on is OK. Thankfully my husband decided he didn't want to go this evening. I was feeling very happy, confident and stress free with my decision to tell him he could go but I wouldn't join him. But, I am now kicking around in my head the effect all of this has on the nieces and nephews. I know obviously alcoholism is hereditary and the kids have probably already seen enough drinking in their short lives to have imprinted some serious stuff in their little heads. I am just trying to figure out what part I do or don't play in all of this. Does anyone have any experience with similar situations?
I am starting to feel so strongly about not wanting to drink around other people or doing anything that would make someone who might have problems with alcohol think that drinking is socially expected. I have this thing in my head about wanting to lead by example. But, then I wonder if I am being silly. As my husband has said most people probably could care less what I am or am not drinking. Is just being present with all the drinking sending the kids a bad message of acceptance?
-- Edited by In The Forest on Wednesday 17th of July 2013 10:54:14 PM
If this were me, which it isn't, unless the kids invited me in some way to their experience for conversation, or you knew or suspected abuse, neglect, exposure to harmful substances (CPS/police reporting), I'd stay out of it. I think it puts kids in a crummy position if they feel like their aunt disapproves of their parents' drinking (which kids can interpret as being disapproving of their parents/them) and gets involved in some way. I also don't think it will make any difference to the kids if you don't drink. They'll choose to drink or not. That's been experience with siblings and their children.
As far as your husband thinking nobody cares if you drink or don't drink - that isn't true - at least not in my experience. Drinking to excess is a shame-based behavior and your not drinking when most all others are in a family creates a sense of being judged for the drinkers. My family make fun of me because I don't drink while they get wasted. One brother got exasperated one day while he and my sisters were drinking. I was in another part of my father's home while he was in the hospital. They invited me to join them. I did. Brother: "God! Why don't you get a glass of wine!!! You'd think you were a nun or something." All I did was enter the family room on their invitation and sat down. I knew they drank. I knew they were adults. I knew they'd been drinking a long time. I knew I was powerless and it wasn't any of my business. But, they knew I wasn't drinking and pelted me with insults and cruel hitting below the belt just because I didn't drink like they did. If my Dad had been home (he wasn't a drinker), they wouldn't have felt as free to drink or to be nasty to me as they were. I've never gone to a party where people are drinking and I'm not where they didn't pull away from me either. And it isn't because I'm sitting around with a prudish look on my face. I just don't like to drink.
So, for what its worth. Here's what I can share about my E/S/H on this topic.
And just a little more as I'm thinking about it: If family is important to you and most all of them are drinkers, Al-Anon is even more important for you because you can become the target of the disease's control maneuvers and abuses. That's like being the odd woman out - or can be - and that can lead to some pretty tricky situations for you - especially as you become more aware of yourself and what you want to allow and don't want to allow in your life. Meetings, literature, MIP, fellowship are all going to be very important to you if not already. The disease progresses and can affect us even more adversely than it already has. We end up being angry all the time or hurt all the time and the kids see us as the pains and the drinkers as the victims or the fun people in their lives if we don't work our program consistently.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 18th of July 2013 12:37:26 AM
if the kids approach you and ASK, you can lovingly give your experience in that you choose not to drink b/c it is not so healthy to do to excess......and unless you smell abuse and have real evidence re: abuse, beatings, anything that is dangerous, then I , too would stay out of it
As to being coerced or "funned" into drinking, I choose NOT to most of the times...sometimes I wll have a beer b4 I eat...when dinner arrives, I put the beer down, and "let me at the food"
If they (drinkers) don't like my not drinking?? Too bad...I am free to drink or not drink and I just dn't allow anyone to shame me to do anything I don't want to
I go to parties and I get "invited" "teased" to "oh have a drink" I just say "no" and "no" is a one word sentence....if they pursue it I say "no" again and as long as I have to....if they get nasty??? I leave.....that has not happened (having to leave) b/c my friends are good people and they take "no" as final and they leave it alone
but if they did pursue and not leave me alone, I would leave....OR if i absolutely had to stay, just keep saying "NO" they will tire of it and quit bothering you
as to the kids?? they will choose to drink or not drink however, sadly, it has been my experience that if a kid has "that" tendency, I guess they will drink......my parents drank heavily...she was an alcoholic.....so all my brothers are A's and one is an A and an N......
I used to drink, but it was a symptom of my unresolved pain and grief and anxiety b/c of all the stuffed emotions...I still have the anxiety/ptsd, but I use my medicine as perscribed and leave the drinking alone except an occasional beer....I fear I might have an addictive personality so I just don't abuse the stuff....I might drink 1x per month...a beer b4 a dinner out at the restaurant...that is it....
Just my take
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I am in agreement with the other 2 ladies and want to add "to thine own self be true". You will be targeted and either silently or outwardly scapegoated when you are among heavy drinkers. The tribe doesn't like "outsiders". Al anon will provide you with the scaffolding to hold true to you. Keep coming back.
My kids are 9 and 14 we have a very open dialog about everything .. my mother has been present at some conversations and has later said .. umm .. seriously? I laugh .. my personal preference is I'd rather my children know they can talk to me about anything (boundary is no talking about dad, unless it has to do with something they feel uncomfortable with OR it's a safety issue, I really have nothing nice to say about their dad right now so it's better to say nothing). They understand to a point, it's really hard to listen to them talk about him when I can't pay the rent because he's not following the court order. I've explained .. it's not them .. it is him.
From time to time I have a glass of wine or a beer with dinner, not often and if I wind up with a bottle of wine it's a glass and the rest gets dumped. Their dad drinks like he eats .. it's all or nothing. They have asked me about this and the easiest way I could communicate what addiction is was to explain it with candy.
You know how you have a big giant bowl of candy and it's sitting there on the table and you are passing by it every couple of min .. you are only allowed 1 piece a day and you've already had your 1 piece. You still want more and it's there, so what's the harm if you grab more? So each time you pass you grab one more. By the end of an hour all of a sudden you see the candy dish is 3/4 empty so big deal .. why not just eat the rest as you want it and whatever "discussion" is going to happen about the candy is going to happen anyway .. so what, big deal. Even though the Dr told you .. you can't have candy now at all .. you still want it and it's in the store, it's at the gas station, it's on tv, holidays revolve around it, you just have to have it .. now it's about the fact your body now craves it. At this point you'll do anything to get it .. steal, lie, cheat, from everyone you know and even though you wind up in the hospital you can't stop. Until you get sick and tired of being sick and tired and say .. I have to stop eating candy .. that's the only way to stop .. that's what it's like to be an addict.
At this point we giggle about it because we are talking about candy .. they get that because it's something they can relate to and understand. My eldest usually asks me more pointed questions when her brother isn't around. Her brother has said some really profound things for a 9 year old about addiction. So what I'm learning is sinking in with them. The fact they know where to go to get help if they ever needed it or see someone else who needs help .. they have resources and knowledge to say .. I understand and this is where you can go. That is as far as they need to go .. they aren't responsible for someone else's issues.
I do drink, again .. not often and I do think about how they feel about it which is why I don't more often (being primary caregiver kind of hard to go to the hospital driving kids after a glass of wine, when they are with their dad .. I don't because they might need me to come and get them) plus I know the devastation and they don't need that again, .. they aren't responsible for if I drink or not .. that is my choice as an adult and they do get that. I am trying to teach them that you don't have to be in an altered state of mind to have fun .. that fun can be had even while others are drinking and you don't have to join in.
I encourage you to do what feels comfortable to you .. not what the masses think you should or shouldn't do. Sometimes that can be kind of scary.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Your "leading by example" is not enough to stop the genetic and social factors that may contribute to your nieces and nephews potentially becoming alcoholics or not. That will either happen or not and it has a high likelihood since this is their genetics and their upbringing. You are powerless over that. It's sad but "to thine own self be true" is where it's at. Neither of my parents were alcoholics and yet I became one. My uncle had the kind of life you describe and he was an alcoholic who drank and smoked weed in front of his kids all the way up until he got sober when they were teenagers. Of the 6 of them, I would venture to say 3 are alcoholics. That might have happened anyhow. I got the gene and I didn't even grow up in his house.
It does not sound like you will be able to change the family dynamics in play here. I doubt you will even have much influence upon your husband and the way he engages with his family (if and until he wants to get sober and at that point it will be on him to change those dynamics). Keep educating your own kids as best you can and if you nieces and nephews come to you for guidance with distorted ideas - it's a good thing to give them a sober perspective but to do it without malice or anger at those still sick and suffering with alcoholism. I don't know why God has it that some of us have to go down this road of addiction/alcoholism, but we do. Some also don't recover. That is beyond your control and mine. Be the best aunt, wife, and mom you can be and try and stay focused just on what is right in front of you in those roles - not how to make other people better uncles, grandparents, inlaws...etc.
I am in agreement with the other 2 ladies and want to add "to thine own self be true". You will be targeted and either silently or outwardly scapegoated when you are among heavy drinkers. The tribe doesn't like "outsiders". Al anon will provide you with the scaffolding to hold true to you. Keep coming back.
OMG, Paula this is so true......when I decided to come into recovery and exercise my right to "to thine own self be true" by coming forward about my past...the horrific aftermath it caused, etc. the toxic "tribe" pulled ranks against me....I was soo attacked b/c I wanted to live in truth...honesty....humility...openness to change...willingness to be better and to fight for that....not be sick b/c of secrets....expose those dirty secrets and let the cleansing begin........ i was pilloried by the entire "tribe" LOVE that word......and Yes, I am the SCAPEGOAT b/c I am the now different one....
and so here I am..."hanging" with the folks who are seeking the same better life and mental health that I seek and I will NOT stop workign on me an improving me b/c it is my only chance at a better life......thanks for this sweet little nugget of wisdom........
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Wow! Thank you all for the great stories. They are not quite what I expected but yet I know you are all right. I have really been working to come to grips with the fact I can't control all of this. Then throwing the kids in the mix was like a little trick on my mind. But, the reality is the kids are just little mini adults and I can't control them either. If they are going to become alcoholics it is going to happen with or without me! I really didn't want to go to the winery last night and I think I was trying to use the kids as an excuse in my mind to justify my not wanting to go but the truth is I just didn't want to go! I didn't want to be at an event so focused around drinking.
grateful2be wrote:
If family is important to you and most all of them are drinkers, Al-Anon is even more important for you because you can become the target of the disease's control maneuvers and abuses. That's like being the odd woman out - or can be - and that can lead to some pretty tricky situations for you - especially as you become more aware of yourself and what you want to allow and don't want to allow in your life. Meetings, literature, MIP, fellowship are all going to be very important to you if not already. The disease progresses and can affect us even more adversely than it already has. We end up being angry all the time or hurt all the time and the kids see us as the pains and the drinkers as the victims or the fun people in their lives if we don't work our program consistently.
This comment is so true. Thank you for the reminder. Thankfully there is not outward bullying towards me about not drinking. But, I definitely feel that I make them uncomfortable. My mother in-law loves to have dinner parties. I think it helps her justify her drinking because it is an "appropriate" event to be drinking at. And, I definitely think that my choice to not drink totally takes away some of that comfort for her. It takes away that everyone is doing it so it's OK feeling. My husband had repeatedly told me I should never feel pressured to drink and I don't. I guess the pressure is there but it doesn't ever make me feel like I have to do it. I am quite comfortable saying I would like a glass of water.
I drew the boundary a year ago that I would go to family events but when my husband's drinking gets to a point I am uncomfortable with I will leave. I have only had to do this once in the past year. I think after the proposed winery event I am also going to have to have a boundary that I will not go to a drinking establishment (winery, bar etc.) with his family. I think the anxiety of that would just send me through the roof. Thanks so much for your help! It is hard finding boundaries that take care of me and are healthy for me and my relationships. I worry about the boundaries I make being harmful, divisive, isolating etc. in regard to my relationship with my husband most importantly but our families also.
Lake in the Forest: I don't know about yours, but my codependency issues can contribute to my trying to find the right words so I don't hurt anybody's feelings, tick somebody off, etc. I complicate things when I let this people pleasing part of me (something that needed to be there to save my life in some pretty awful situations) get the upper hand.
My young grandson at an early age was one of my finest teachers for this. I'd ask him if he wanted to go to a movie, spend the night, go to the pool or something else. In a very gentle voice (he's 14 now and still does it), he'd say, "No, thank you." That was it. "No, thank you." I've gotten better at saying "no thank you," and even that down and dirty, honest, no holds barred - "I don't want to do that. Can we choose something we'd both(all) enjoy." Even in situations where I'm fairly certain the other person is going to have a fit (either inside or outside) if I'm not willing or able to do what they want me to do - I've learned to say "That won't work for me."
I relish the simple serenity of just saying what is true for me and letting the others think, feel or do whatever they choose.
I'm really glad that you are recognizing things that you truly don't enjoy and are willing to say so and not go. That's the Serenity Prayer at work, isn't it? Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change (what feeds me/what drains me), courage to change the things I can (saying a simple yes or no) and the wisdom to know the difference.
Sounds like you are growing through some challenges and getting stronger, too.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 18th of July 2013 08:42:55 PM
quote Thankfully there is not outward bullying towards me about not drinking. But, I definitely feel that I make them uncomfortable
people feel threatened as I get better within me....my supporters who are healthy and wanting the best for me are cheering me on
the unhealthy ones, or my detractors b/c they want me in their sick muck hole, and its easier for them to rip me down then to face themselves and maybe lift themselves up??? OR , too, folks attack those are "out growing" them and getting free of their ability to manipulate and control me.........big bio sister hated me anyway, but hates me more , now b/c her head games on me are OVER....she cannot manipulate, drag me down, insult me , push my buttons b/c I took me away from her
yea, the ones you don't need are the ones NOT in your corner, cheering you on for your recovery.......keep up the good work on you
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Grateful2be, you are SOOOOO spot on! I must admit I do not 100% understand what codependency means. I know it is the need to take care of others. I don't really feel like I am that person. But, I guess maybe I am because the people pleasing thing is me to a tee!!!! It does make things more complicated! It is interesting because I was seeing a counselor for about a year before I met my husband. I didn't have anything major going on but I just wasn't happy and we spent a lot of time working on assertiveness training which is related to all of this people pleasing stuff!! I feel like I made SOOOO much progress while I was seeing the counselor. She was great! It was amazing how I realized that I could be out with friends and getting hungry and not want to speak up because I might disrupt their fun by wanting to get some food. How crazy is that!!! But I started becoming aware of these things and gaining lots of skills to get better at dealing with all of this. After seeing the counselor for a little more than a year and a few months into my relationship with my husband I stopped seeing the counselor because the counselor and I both decided it was time.
I really felt like the counselor helped me be in the right head space to have a good relationship with my husband. I can't imagine how much harder this would all be without having had the counseling. But, I apparently still have more work to do. I still struggle with the big things. I can let people know I'm hungry and want food but saying I don't want to spend time with your drunk family is much more challenging!!! Thankfully my husband's binges with alcohol are far and few between. His brothers live quite far away so the really big family events that lead to a lot of the drinking don't happen often. But, unfortunately, that also provides me few opportunities to practice setting my boundaries, staying strong, saying what I mean etc. I was feeling so confidant about saying no to the winery the other night that I was kind of disappointed I didn't get the chance to practice and say no I don't want to go. I have learned it really does take practice.
All of this also leads me to having a lot of pent up anger towards my mother in-law. She is very controlling and dominating of the entire family. She always expects things to be her way. Her husband and three sons just lay down and take it and let her run things. I also see her as the queen or root of the drinking. She is the one who creates the events where there is alcohol, always filling everyone's glass. She is the one who has created this atmosphere that all this drinking is acceptable. One thing I learned when I was in counseling is that people who don't accept your no when you say it are being disrespectful to you. No means no. I see all of her controlling as completely disrespectful and not honoring other people's desires. I know she has her own issues but that doesn't mean we all have to fall over doing what she wants just to make her feel better even if it makes us unhappy. That makes me want fight back and say no even louder because I have worked too hard to get this far to let myself be beaten down again by someone like her who won't accept no.
Well, that was a bit of a rant on the mother in-law. You obviously touched a nerve. I've been reminded to say what you mean, mean what you say and don't say it mean. I have been trying to remember that. It has helped. And, I LOVE "No thank you" and "That won't work for me." So simple! Yet so hard! "I don't want to do that. Can we choose something we'd both(all) enjoy." could really work with these difficult family situations. Even though most times it seems to be my way or the highway. It makes me sad for my husband because he has lived his entire life under this control and domination where he gets to express no opinions and desires of his own. It's always someone else's agenda! I try to remember that and give him opportunities to "have a say". Thank you for these suggestions! I really needed that reminder that it is OK for me to say these things!
(((ITF))) I am so glad you are on the board. I'm sorry to say, I don't remember if you are in Al-Anon groups in your area? If not, they are certainly going to benefit you. If so, they are certainly going to benefit you. Smile. The family situation you are describing sounds pretty difficult on one hand and yet on the other it sounds as if you like the family, too (previous post). As far as the meaning of co-dependency - well - for me it has meant that I would deny my own needs and desires for the good of another when that wasn't in my best interest or in theirs. And it can mean that we are some of the most compassion, caring and insightful people around. We just get confused sometimes as to what is our part in a relationship and what is everyone else's part? What is our business to mind. What is theirs?
As far as how many people have this problem - I'd say all of us based on my own 64 years of living. Its just that some of us are in Al-Anon now. Much support.
Thanks! I am not in a group right now. There are only 2 meetings a week in town and one is when I am usually at work (middle of the day). I am trying to get up the nerve and find the time to go. My husband is actually an addiction counselor which kind of makes me nervous about going. As someone else said to me I don't want to "out" him. I'm trying to get involved here and go to online meetings here and take things one step at a time. I do like his family when they are sober. And quite honestly I could handle them drunk if I knew he was by my side sober and dependable but when he is around them that isn't guaranteed. I hate the alone feeling of being in a room with all these drunk people who feel like strangers, making no sense and can't remember our conversations. Mother In-Law has the control issues but I could deal with those if the drinking issue wasn't thrown in the mix to. I like your description of co-dependency. It makes sense to me. When I hear people talk about needing to take care of others or looking for people to fix that doesn't make sense to me. I don't feel I am that way but I do think I am the way you described it. Thank you for your wisdom!
I have a hard time being with my own family when they're drinking. I can't imagine what its like to be with in-laws when they're drinking. So good to hear from you. Hope to see you at a meeting.
Even in situations where I'm fairly certain the other person is going to have a fit (either inside or outside) if I'm not willing or able to do what they want me to do - I've learned to say "That won't work for me."
I relish the simple serenity of just saying what is true for me and letting the others think, feel or do whatever they choose.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 18th of July 2013 08:42:55 PM
I just LOVE this post.....as a "in remission" people pleasing coda, it is nice to see another alanoner tell about her breakthrough.....I, too, have learned that "NO" is a one word sentence....depending who is asking and what our relationship is, I , too, don't always give an explanation...Its not compulsory..
Or and I do that too "that won't work for me" or "I am not comfortable with that" or just plain, "No, I am sorry, I can't go/do/give ................" I don't feel badly if I am righteously taking care of me...not being unfair or something.....I used to give give and do do till i was worn out and resentful....I am not anymore ...I am fair, generous, but I don't give if it is not healthy or good for me....I accept, now, my limitations.....and I don't feel I have to explain myself ......
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
, unless the kids invited me in some way to their experience for conversation, or you knew or suspected abuse, neglect, exposure to harmful substances (CPS/police reporting), I'd stay out of it. I think it puts kids in a crummy position if they feel like their aunt disapproves of their parents' drinking (which kids can interpret as being disapproving of their parents/them) and gets involved in some way. I also don't think it will make any difference to the kids if you don't drink. They'll choose to drink or not. That's been experience with siblings and their children.