The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I do agree with Rehprof on the tone and attitude of the message. I also believe in the wisdom of the alanon traditions and principles. In alanon I learned to believe that the answers for each person life are to be found within that person's soul. We listen and attempt to guide someone to their truths by being truthful about ourselves and our lives. Even a sponsor is not encourage to over step this boundary. We share our own ESH in an effort to assure others that there are other choices .
Most importantly WE DO NOT GIVE ADVISE. I feel that giving advise in any form is a form of abuse. It indicates that the person is not capable of going within and finding their truth. The ODAT clearly states"To give advise to someone is to intrude to' give advise to myself is to grow." The success of alanon speaks for itself. Offering a useful alanon tool to someone empowers them to grow and seek their own answers. If someone decide to tell me theri truth about me I validate myself and my actions and refuse to accept their view.
Take what you life and leave the rest.
-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 13th of July 2013 09:05:33 AM
And for me, that is what I think creates the problem at times: Being worn down from the sneaky way the disease takes elements of truth and then uses it to bash our character. Once that has happened, it seems as if any kind of feedback that is meant to be helpful can feel wounding or abusive when it is truth that has come to visit to set us free.
The minute somebody opens their mouth and starts the "f" word going - as RP suggested - I close down - because it is so obvious where they're going and because I am sooooooooo bored with that much over-used word that my critic immediately begins asking - Do they have a dictionary? Can't they find another word to use?.
But its the subtle attacks that have contributed to my wrestling with this issue and my own false pride, too. It isn't easy to sort it all out.
Both RP's and Pinkchip's responses are very helpful. And Pinkchip - love how you dealt with the saying goodbye to your xA partner, too!
Just saw your response, too, Betty. I appreciate the feedback. That is a lot to consider. If I've done that unconsciously on this board, I am so very sorry and will pay close attention to what I've written in the future. If I've hurt anyone with that, please pm me if you feel safe enough to do that. I will make personal amends. I can't hear it and make sense of it otherwise.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 09:01:51 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 09:03:39 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 09:06:45 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 11:36:56 AM
Okay, then, PC. We're alike in many ways, you and me. I got so angry at my A many years ago, I dumped large bags of trash on him while he laid in bed because I'd had it with his drug use, druggy friends, abuse, refusal to do anything to help me while I tried to take care of a 2 year old and a 3 month old both sick with bad colds and me with walking pneumonia - the most necessary thing on that day being his taking bags of dirty diapers and trash to the dumpster at our alley through 1 foot of snow before the trash collectors came. He wasn't sick. He was staying home from work to spend his day with his drugs. That's the day I realized I couldn't live much longer with him and didn't want to do anything like that again. I wasn't witty either. I was just darn sick of the way I had allowed myself to live because I believed in a marriage vow that didn't make any sense anymore.
Just saw your next post, too, PC. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me - I've needed to see your input and your suggestions. Your being a man, your experience with your own recovery, your candid shares have not felt like advice to me but as new ways to see what I need to see.
I don't experience any one-up-man-ship in your shares - that subtle, I know better than you violence that perhaps that advice giving can sometimes be. I do go to open AA meetings sometimes just to get grounded because I need both the hard and the soft sides of wisdom.
So - from me to you - no harm in my world has come from you. And - I'm direct enough to tell you if it does although I don't think I'd do that on the public forum - I'd do it PM first.
As a postscript: In our Al-Anon groups, the not giving advice thing or no crosstalk thing has more to do with how much we have lost of ourselves in reacting to the disease. We offer (or try to offer) each other the space to hear and find ourselves again and to stop focusing on other people and their problems.
Outside the meetings, however, we do offer suggestions and depending on our particular area of expertise - some forms of advice - not YOU SHOULD DO THIS, but here's an option that is available to you or if you do that, this could be the result. But most of the folks I hang out with after meetings have been in recovery for a long time and do tend to offer more information than we might in a meeting or during questions after the meeting.
I don't know how AA handles all that.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 09:32:48 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 11:46:43 AM
I had to get OUT of life with mr A before I could see how verbally abusive it was. Maybe I should vow that if I ever get in another relationship, I give myself one day out of every week where I don't see him so that I can think about how he treats me! It didn't start out as bad as it was in the end, of course not, why would I have married him if he was so miserable to start with? It started out little, small comments, I don't make coffee right, should do it this way (his way). Little comments picking away at my self-esteem over time becoming bigger comments delivered with more angry sounding force, shutting me down; worry about the way things were and thinking somehow it was my fault, that there was something I could do differently to improve our situation leading to lower self-esteem because if I were smarter, better, more capable, I would be able to figure out how to fix our life and put it back to the way it was in the beginning. It took a long time to put myself right after he left; recurring conversations with daughter about verbally abusive people - people who I wouldn't have identified as verbally abusive until she pointed out the particular way they attack and why it's verbally abusive, help me see it. I've had occasional brief verbally abusive exchanges - I'm sure we all have, someone taking their anger out on the next available person that happens to be us; but identifying it within close personal relationships is harder because we give credibility to those who are supposed to care about us, they wouldn't hurt us, right? And I don't think some do deliberately, I think its just their way of being in this world. My difficulty is, someone makes a comment that is verbally abusive and wanting to be nice, I let it roll off my back instead of being confrontational - I hate confrontation.
And, I read a great book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship, that helped me not only see the verbally abusive nature of my relationship with Mr. A, it helps identify the same power dynamics in other relationships and how verbal abuse is used to have power over someone else.
-- Edited by likemyheart on Saturday 13th of July 2013 10:26:05 AM
__________________
I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
Thank you LMH & ILD. I so appreciate listening to your experience and to your wisdom in this area. Helps me see where I might have internalized something and other ways of seeing how to recognize it outside of myself. What neat ideas you both have - especially the "in a new relationship - taking a day off to see how he treats me and reflective listening."
I no longer live with an A, but I do still wrestle with the subtle violence that can happen both in me and outside of me and that puffed up part of nature that goes with me wherever I go - that little bugger called false pride that can get me into so much trouble if I let it.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 11:24:17 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 11:51:03 AM
Verbal abuse is something most of us would probably agree is a constant as the disease progresses in our relationships. But, are there times when someone is courageous and caring enough to point something out about us that we don't want to hear or see because it wounds our pride and we call that verbal abuse? My pride can get prickly if an unpleasant truth about my thinking or behavior is challenged or a suggestion made that directly conflicts with a long held and much cherished belief of mine - no matter how erroneous or unhealthy it is. If its a much-polished and practiced belief and behavior of mine, pride can also raise up and accuse the other person of verbal abuse if not outwardly, mentally. Yet, I tend to fully trust only those persons in my life who care enough to challenge my thinking or behaviors without rejecting me or make suggestions that are totally foreign to my way of thinking.
There is a poster I saw many years ago. A rag doll was sprawled face down on a rocker - arms and legs drooping over the sides and front of the chair. The caption read: "Truth can set you free!!! But, first it will make you miserable." I'm like that rag doll inside sometimes when people who truly care about me or spend a lot of time with me point out what my pride doesn't want to see. And yet, when I allow what they have to say to penetrate my mind and my heart in reflection later (not always right when they speak), truth does its work and I'm set free a little more from clinging to an image of myself that really isn't true.
How do some of you discern the difference between verbal abuse and truth that helps set you free? Do you wrestle with this issue, too?
Good question. My ex-A was sneaky as I think many of our qualifiers are. He would say things like "You don't participate in life!" and that was true but I didn't want to hear it at the time. Then it would progress to "You are helpless and will never make it on your own." That is where it went over the line from the truth to being abusive.
I guess the defining difference is when there is clearly malice intended on the part of the person trying to criticise me. With no malice, it's typically constructive - with malice, it's generally verbal abuse or rapidly becomes so.
It is so easy for us to tell each other on this alanon board "Oh just don't listen to anything your A says.....That is the disease talking....Imagine sick, sick, sick, on his forehead!" All those saying and statements are helpful and yeah...they are tools BUT - in most cases, our qualifiers and/or people who have verbally abused us in the past either start out with elements of truth weaved in or they continue to intermingle things we know are true about ourselves (insecurities) with ridiculous insults so that we get so worn down we don't know what is true and what isn't.
Hence, your question is a really important one. And boy was my ex-A suprised when I suddenly started saying "You know...I'm not helpless. I am not lazy. And I'm marching my non-helpless, non-lazy butt out the door and leaving you!" That is when he started crying and blubbering not to leave. Go figure.
Good question. My ex-A was sneaky as I think many of our qualifiers are. He would say things like "You don't participate in life!" and that was true but I didn't want to hear it at the time. Then it would progress to "You are helpless and will never make it on your own." That is where it went over the line from the truth to being abusive.
I guess the defining difference is when there is clearly malice intended on the part of the person trying to criticise me. With no malice, it's typically constructive - with malice, it's generally verbal abuse or rapidly becomes so.
It is so easy for us to tell each other on this alanon board "Oh just don't listen to anything your A says.....That is the disease talking....Imagine sick, sick, sick, on his forehead!" All those saying and statements are helpful and yeah...they are tools BUT - in most cases, our qualifiers and/or people who have verbally abused us in the past either start out with elements of truth weaved in or they continue to intermingle things we know are true about ourselves (insecurities) with ridiculous insults so that we get so worn down we don't know what is true and what isn't.
Hence, your question is a really important one. And boy was my ex-A suprised when I suddenly started saying "You know...I'm not helpless. I am not lazy. And I'm marching my non-helpless, non-lazy butt out the door and leaving you!" That is when he started crying and blubbering not to leave. Go figure.
Actually G2B - I wish I were that witty and clever at the time. Yes - that was my attitude and yes...I did start answering back and sticking up for myself when the name calling and verbal abuse started. I am minimizing though when I think back to how messy it actually was. It was really really messy and I called him plenty of names too. Most of all, I recall screaming at him for "F##king up my entire life!" repeatedly. That was a consistent statement I made. I realized within a year that I let him do that to my life and that was on me also.
And I've given advice on here too many times too. I try and tame it down when I realize I'm doing it. I sometimes rationalize with myself that my direct "You should...yada yada" was just a suggestion...as if. It's hard coming from AA where they have saying such as "Yeah and it's just SUGGESTED that you get a sponsor and do the steps also! Just like it's a SUGGESTION that you pull the cord when using a parachute" People give very strong feedback in AA but I can see how in alanon it would chase a person right out the door much quicker. They also say to newcomers to take the cotton out of your ears and shove it in your mouth. Baffling at times to balance that out with alanon which is so different in that manner.
Alanon has given me a bit more tact but something I still need to work on also. But that's another topic.
For me, the difference is the way the information/feedback is delivered...
Verbal abuse was always clear to me "what a 'xxxx''
idiot? don't you know any better?"
Feedback is..."Here, let me show you the trick to doing this..."
Very distinct difference in intent...one is to wound the other is out of sincere concern...
My 2 Cents
RP
-- Edited by canadianguy on Saturday 13th of July 2013 08:53:21 AM
Well I was gonna answer then I read THIS GEM of a post......SPOT on, RP, and Grateful, you are not alone, sweetie.....I do the same thing....first I react.....sometimes I even get pissed but its more at me then the other UNLESS, like RP points out it IS verbal abuse.........
My sister does the "you are a &*(*(&(*& idiot.....you are bla bla bla" I think , also, if they address my behaviour, NOT my character its a good bet they are NOT being verbally abusive, but just giving me feeback
BUT if they work my inventory, by name calling or "you are a &Y(*(*& jerk" then its verbal abuse.
That is my take on it
WOW!!! U put some great posts.......this is TOTALLY what I needed to read so I can keep on even keel and THINK "ok is this abusive (Read RP and re-read RP) or is this to help me?????"
THanks, girlfriend!!!!!! Hope U are having a good weekend....Pool today for me and then we got cold front moving in.......it is actually gonna rain, I hear and b in the upper 80's.....what a weird summer LOL
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
And I've given advice on here too many times too. I try and tame it down when I realize I'm doing it. I sometimes rationalize with myself that my direct "You should...yada yada" was just a suggestion...as if. It's hard coming from AA where they have saying such as "Yeah and it's just SUGGESTED that you get a sponsor and do the steps also! Just like it's a SUGGESTION that you pull the cord when using a parachute" People give very strong feedback in AA but I can see how in alanon it would chase a person right out the door much quicker. They also say to newcomers to take the cotton out of your ears and shove it in your mouth. Baffling at times to balance that out with alanon which is so different in that manner.
Alanon has given me a bit more tact but something I still need to work on also. But that's another topic.
Pinkchip PLEASE DONT CHANGE, unless, of course you want to, LOL....You woke me up to something I am doing to myself re: the resentments and staying angry thingy, remember????? You told me the TRUTH......PLEASE be yourself b/c to me??? I NEEDED that gentle nudge and feedback to SEE that I need to work on letting go the resentments......I "tell it like it is too" but I never, at least I hope to God not, ABUSE the person, i just give firm feedback b/c I CARE....Like YOU care!!!!!!
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
LMK, that's how it started for me, too. It was little criticisms about how I vacuumed the floor in the wrong pattern or how he was appalled that I didn't know how to do hospital corners on the bed when making it. Then, it turned into blame. If something broke, then I must have done something to weaken it or misplace it or I accessed something on the internet that made our internet service stop. I'd spend countless hours trying to prove him wrong. I called the internet service provider and found out there was an outage in our area and he wouldn't apologize. That's when it crossed the line to abusive in my mind. The crazy making, the blaming, the jabs, the 'I'm too sensitive and can't take a joke'. Sarcastic barbs that were meant to raise my hackles, so to speak. I knew then, over many years that it was abusive.
If ah were to say, "Here's how I would do this", and then let me choose how to do something for myself, I wouldn't have a problem. But, he usually says, "Why are you doing that like that? You should use this tool, or do it this way. You'll never succeed doing it THAT way." That's where it crosses the line from helpful to abusive for me.
As for the comments being truthful. I believe that when it comes from an A, it is their truth. It's their perception and they're allowed to have their own perspective on things. When I know my truths and when I listen carefully, I can discern for myself whether it's true for me, too. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't and sometimes I'm not ready to hear the truth. But, being open to it and willing to meditate on it is a big step for me. I no longer shut down, I give thought to the painful messages because I want to know if there is truth to them FOR ME or not.
I think what "did me in" so badly re: verbal abuse is b/c as a child I had NO "filters" to discern what is BS and what is the truth, so I bought all their terrible assessments of me, in that I had no ability, was too young to say "well that is their evil reality, not mine" and b/c of that I was mind "jacked" so bad, it has taken 11 years in recovery to be able to "filter" what is truth...what is their abuse and BS
It is a job, when it happens to a child, but it is reversable, and its slow...hard work....lots of 1 step back, 2 forward...
and I slip and have to begin again , over and over....I still get down on me b/c of the brainwashing and programming me to fail that they did, but if they can "hit and miss" "jack my mind" I can do a lot to reverse this by focused, determined, conscious and deliberate and dedicated RE-programming my mind and my perceptions of me
I see progress big time but as they say "i am no where where I used to be....but I am not still where I want to be"
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I would load the dishwasher..he would come behind me and do it the "right way" -- and it wasn't until I was out of this relationship for about 2 years that I realized the depth of his abuse...and how much I had actually taken over his insults...by my self-talk. Now I try very hard not to abuse my character and blame myself when something goes wrong...instead of saying "Gawd, I'm so stupid" when I break a glass, I say "well, wouldya look at that..."
He had me so conditioned to keep things just the way HE wanted them that I found (and continue to find) myself doing things and saying things to myself HIS way...even now that he not in the house...
And RE: advice...I tend to want to solve things too...but honestly...I like suggestions...it helps me expand my choices when people say here's some options...
Thanks, Paula, Nemesha and Betty. I think I've thanked everyone else. As I said earlier, if I have unconsciously stepped over a line with you somewhere, I'm very sorry and PM me if you'd like. I will make an amend. I have to say that based on my experience on this board it has been loaded with stories, opinions, information, guidance and feedback, but I've never felt emotionally abused or that anyone has taken my inventory. But if that has happened to you although I really try very hard to follow what others do without telling folks they should do something or taking their inventories myself, that doesn't mean I haven't done it and I don't want to continue to do it either. I'd like to make it right if that is appropriate feeling to you. I haven't really been all that concerned about it in my own heart until this discussion and sure don't want to continue making this kind of mistake if I have been and truly didn't know it. My understanding of advice or emotional abuse doesn't include folks giving me information, suggestions, guidance or feedback and I haven't learned that in Al-Anon in my groups either except for when we use crosstalk or tell people what we think they should do with their own lives, so I certainly wanted to check this all out.
Taking other people's inventories is something I learned in my own groups and recovery work had to do mostly with judging, criticizing, gossiping, condemning or moralizing somebody but not looking at our own character defects and assets. I'm just kind of surprised at some of what I've read here based on my own experience of Al-Anon, our books, my sponsor(s), and my group meetings.
So, thanks for listening. As you can see, I'm feeling very uncertain about all this right now. Some of the information is very new to my history with the program and my education on emotional abuse and its signs and symptoms, so I appreciate your sharing it, Betty.
Update: Taking somebody's moral inventory can be abusive when blaming others for our thoughts, feelings and actions which is projection - projecting our faults and defects onto others and not taking responsibility for that - and that is harmful. Now, I think I'm understanding a little more of what I read. I had to really stretch on that one given that projection isn't talked about in our groups or listed often as emotional abuse - just Step 4 and beyond the groups - isn't often mentioned in definitions, signs, symptoms of emotional abuse that I've discovered.
Wow! We've covered a lot of territory with this one.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 08:47:05 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 08:57:52 PM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 14th of July 2013 12:13:17 AM
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 14th of July 2013 06:53:03 AM
Louise Hay: "There's a thousand ways to do the same thing." Helped me start seeing that my way wasn't the only way or necessarily the right way. It was the way I learned but there were other ways to do it, too. I think our slogan - "Keep an open mind" is a godsend - at least for me when it comes to neither giving or receiving a my way or the highway approach to life UNLESS it is my house, my car, my clothes, my place of business, etc. I've learned not to let other people decided what they may do with that which is mine unless it is co-owned or co-shared. Thanks, RP. This was a good one for me, too.
I'm with you on the suggestions, too, RP. It helps me find new solutions for things by paying attention to what is happening inside me when I read what is outside of me. If I get too many suggestions to absorb, I might feel overwhelmed, but I also know I'm noticing all the various options available to me to choose - and again that helps me keep my mind open. If I didn't want any feedback, no matter how it comes back to me, I wouldn't post on this board. I'm reserved by nature and appreciate seeing options from a safe distance.
If we were in a group and lots of suggestions were coming at me, I'd close down because there would also be energy I could feel in the room and I'd feel more bombarded than ripe for various options or suggestions to be offered. I get to choose a new idea and/or action to try on after reading posts and I'm still responsible for that choice making and consequences of it. In a room of physical people, that might not be so true for me.
Good! I'm glad to hear that. The last thing I'd want to do is bring more pain into our lives. Yet, I know I'm human and I can make mistakes. And yes, you did contribute a lot of value to the whole of the discussion, friend. (((N)))
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 08:42:48 PM
Hmmmm...good thread. I am coloring my hair and waiting for the timer, so not sure how insightful I can be. Let me address the giving advice thing first...I am guilty guilty guilty and will be more careful. There are times I post, then go back and edit. Perhaps all of those years of dealing with clients with strokes, brain injuries and dementia have affected my approach.
Next, it took me a long time to discern what was and wasn't emotional/verbal abuse...I am better at trusting my gut. Still, if something stings, I don't usually react...I sit with it a bit to see if it is tapping into a shadow of mine or I try to determine if the other person is projecting their crap onto me, is having some jealousy, is triggered etc. Their delivery is important, too.
Some thoughts for now, may be more later..need to rinse my hair
"Keep an open mind" is a godsend - at least for me when it comes to neither giving or receiving a my way or the highway approach to life UNLESS it is my house, my car, my clothes, my place of business, etc. I've learned not to let other people decided what they may do with that which is mine unless it is co-owned or co-shared.
SAME HERE...........I am very territorial, in that NOBODY tells me what to do re: the items you listed....I do want to be open minded re: my recovery, my character improvement, etc......this really resonated w/me.....:)
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
PAULA took me a long time to discern what was and wasn't emotional/verbal abuse...I am better at trusting my gut. Still, if something stings, I don't usually react...I sit with it a bit to see if it is tapping into a shadow of mine or I try to determine if the other person is projecting their crap onto me, is having some jealousy, is triggered etc. Their delivery is important, too.
I have to sit and "digest" and make sure I got their motive right.....is it a trigger for me??? or is it their projection of them onto me.??? and as Paula says, the delivery is very important......VERY GR8 thread.........LOVE this
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I liked this, too. Although I am now challenged by the idea that advice of any kind if we go by the dictionary's definition of it which includes options, information and suggestions is a form of abuse? I pay for advice as well as seek it from folks who have more information or expertise in a specific area or field or life challenge than I do. I also request feedback when I'm not sure how I'm being perceived in a situation and I give it when somebody asks me in one way or another to do that or when their behavior is hurtful to me or to others. That, too, is giving information which is also included in the definition of advice giving. Is that also a form of abuse? I've seen how giving advice as in "You should" could be inappropriate or maybe a form of abuse depending on the motive and the circumstance and I know that name-calling, putting down how others do something, etc are forms of abuse, but offering options, information, suggestions and giving or receiving feedback about personal experiences with someone's behaviors that directly affect us or a person who is being exploited, beaten down, threatened - is that also a form of abuse as defined under the word - advice? If so, that is a whole new realm of reasoning to consider for me.
I think that is why the slogan "keep the focus on me" comes to play., like re: advice giving could be verbal abuse, could NOT be
However if I keep the focus on ME...My take...My experience...My hope, MY strength, then how can it ever be verbal abuse
We are nudging into what is crosstalk???? demeaning someone, minimizing them, talking over them, criticizing them, I know we could be slitting hairs in some areas. so I guess we need to Look at the "giver" listen to their "tone" what is my history like with them???
What are their patterns w/others??? soft to "Jane" and pushy and beating ME down????
I guess that is why we keep the focus on US when sharing
Yea, I say to people "I urge you to keep working the program, or I wold get a sponsor as fast as I could as I get workbooks on the steps"
I know I have said that..is it abusive??? No b/c if you read all my post, the reader will see that I am merely concerned about their situations and want to help
Sometimes its not the letter its the carrier of that letter than can make a big difference....
I look at the Heart behind any remarks made to me.....some are obviously loving...some obviously mean.....what is the heart behind the remark or take or share??? are they negative to me regularly???
I guess that is why I like the slogans
keep the focus on me................making sure that I give MY share
live and let live........................how would I want them to talk to me
easy does it............................take it easy when urging a person in trouble to get help
listen and learn.......................how do the more exper. alanoners handle a share
FANTASIC working of my brain, LOL...VERY interesting thread
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
In working the alanon program I have become very aware of boundaries and respecting the individuality of another. I fully accepted that in order for me to recover I had to not take anyone else's inventory but my own and to had to keep the focus on myself. and not on others.
I am not talking about the helping professions I am speaking about individual interactions. No one can know MY truth They perceive their truth and try to impose it on me. I feel it is emotional abuse and it feels that way as well
Good! I'm glad to hear that. The last thing I'd want to do is bring more pain into our lives. Yet, I know I'm human and I can make mistakes. And yes, you did contribute a lot of value to the whole of the discussion, friend. (((N)))
-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 13th of July 2013 08:42:48 PM
((((((((((((((((G)))))))))))))))) U R a GOOD soul, Girlfriend
__________________
Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Hi, Aloha! How good to hear from you on this topic. I really appreciate your candid share. I can certainly relate to both the pride and the nasty down-stroking you've described. I, like you, do appreciate it when a person connects with me one on one and lets me in on how they are experiencing some behavior of mine that I need to be challenged on in the way you described above. I don't always like what they say, but I do believe they care about me and care about our relationship if they're willing to say what's on their mind and in their hearts when it comes to their experience of me in relationship to them or if they see something that I might be doing that is hurtful to me, them, or others. I may not make changes or maybe I would after hearing them out. But, without knowledge of what is bugging them, nothing is going to change and a wall will go up in our relationship (based on my own experience. Smile).
I agree with you, too, that speaking from our life experience on the message board and not giving advice or interrupting during meetings is within the boundaries established by Al-Anon and the people who post on the message board.
Thanks again for the candid share. It helps me know I'm not the only one who wrestles with these kinds of things from time to time. The advice thing was an added bonus to the discussion. I appreciate us being able to agree on what we want our message board to be and our meeting time to be, too!
-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 15th of July 2013 08:24:56 PM
There's that saying "the truth hurts", and I've found for me that it holds pretty "true", whether I'd like to admit it or not if my pride is at stake. I've had to swallow some pretty bitter pills about myself taking my own inventory lately in regards to a relationship.
When I was with my exAH, he would sometimes say things to me that felt real abusive and at the same time would make me question myself and my value as a human being.
He called me selfish many times and YES, quite frankly there were times where I was just no longer willing to help. It hurt because I knew I had a choice to do more, but at the same time, I was unwilling to do so.
For me, as sampled in previous posts, it's the "delivery" in which this opinion is presented to me that determines whether its abuse or constructive criticism.
"You never help with anything! You're so f*n selfish! I don't even know why I married you!" = abuse
"I feel hurt that when I ask for assistance you seem to always say 'no'. It seems selfish to me. I would like to talk with you about this." = constructive criticism.
That said, I have to watch out for those masked deliveries where they try to come across as caring but really are just insults. Like, "Oh, you're so simple-minded, you poor thing." Stuff like that that just tears a person down one sneaky phrase at a time.
Regarding advise - while this is an Al-Anon board, this is not an Al-Anon meeting. There is pervasive cross-talk on here, which I see really cannot be avoided because that's the nature of a message board. I do personally try to speak from my life experiences as sampled above, but I will throw the "no advice given" guideline out the window when it comes to advising members get to face-to-face meetings. But that's just me. ;)
