help please - Al-Anon Family Group

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

help please

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

I guess I was in a rush making dinner and wasn't as clear as I could have been.

My parents reluctantly just moved to assisted living- something long overdue. Of course their having overwhelming emotions is natural. Dad, in very bad health, has relinquished his fight and drive and is at the making peace with what he can. He is not consistent in his ability to express his thoughts.

My Mom has "isms" and has shown a selfish mean streak throughout my childhood. This is only one of her many, many temper tantrums.

My Mom, especially when stressed, is abusive and unjustly takes her emotions out on me. When my parents asked me to reserve several days to help them move, I didn't hesitate to say yes, even though I live a few hours away. As the time approached, my parents could not be reached by phone and I could not leave a message. My Mom did not call. Usually we check in with each other daily. They were in an apartment complex and I knew there would be people around them if they were in trouble.

I did not want to make the trip if there plans changed. The next day, I reached my Dad and he told me that I'm not to come to help on any of the days. I questioned him, repeated several times to make sure that this is what he wanted. He was consistent and firm. His avoidance of explanations for the change made me feel that my Mom was standing near him to coach him exactly what to say. She has held him "hostage" in other circumstances. He is not strong enough anymore to take her on. The abuse and chaos would be too much for him. I told him that I set aside time to help, per their request, and that I need to have the courtesy phone call if they change their minds- so that I could plan my schedule accordingly. Dad apologized and we could both easily move on.

The next week my Mom finally called and I told her the same thing, just as simple and brief. She responded that she didn't call "because she knew I was angry". I asked what made her think this, and she said that she "just knows". I told her that I'm not angry and she insisted that I am a very angry little girl. (I am neither a little girl or an angry person. I am annoyed at her games, but I have a part in this too, as I haven't completely disengaged yet.)

She proceeded to say that Dad is not capable of making or canceling plans and that she is not responsible for canceling plans, or even providing the address where they are moving. I said, "well, if Dad isn't capable, and if she does not provide an address, then how would I know where they are?" Mom proceeded to then say that she does not want a relationship with me because I am too angry. She said that she had cut me out of their will because I had been a "very angry little girl." She then hung up.

When Mom sets up a situation that would make anyone angry, then insists that I am angry... saying that I am not angry feels defensive and weak. I did say that I wasn't angry one time and did not repeat. I spoke clearly, in a low voice and without emotion. I kept to the facts. I used my Alanon tools, and am very proud of how I was able to conduct myself.

Yes, Grateful, ehe did and said mean spirited things, projected her anger onto me, and, when I requested respect, she terminated our relationship and hung up. She is sulking, waiting for me to call back and try and smooth things over, as I used to do prior to my working the program. However, catering to and enabling bulling is no longer something in which I participate.

It is difficult for me to figure out how to have a boundary with her when she also controls/ torments my Dad and my access to my Dad. I may have to give up trying, but I am hoping that there may be a solution that I haven't yet found.

-- Edited by bud on Tuesday 4th of June 2013 08:00:06 PM

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

What would happen if each and every time she behaved this way you'd say, "Mom, I love you. Let's talk when you're feeling better." I don't think you're ever going to be able to have a reasonable discussion with her. It sounds like she just wants to fight and if passive-aggressive will not own her anger and will do all she can to make you angry. You could also try "Mom, I love you" no matter how miserably she behaves. Consistently using this might totally and completely disarm her because she can get absolutely nowhere except 1 place - you loving her exactly as she is. You don't have to stay on the phone forever - just "Mom, I love you." WAit for her response. Then "I love you, Mom. I need to get off the phone now. But, I will call you again - and then name a day and a time. This suggestion may not work at all, but I learned that there are essentially only two things we human beings are truly saying for all our words: "I love you." "Help me." Lots of understanding. I had a Mom who was just as difficult and a Dad who let her run everything - long before his dementia. Many, many hugs. (My Mom referred to me as Young Lady and I was 48 when she died.)

-- Edited by grateful2be on Tuesday 4th of June 2013 08:11:17 PM

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

How can I effectively respond when a manipulator states, "you're angry", to gain control and shut down the other person? Walking away from the situation would be my first choice, but it may not be possible. Stating "ok" or "maybe you're right" doesn't seem to apply under these circumstances, as the accuser taking my inventory would use this as an "admission" which will be used to justify themselves and a consequence that will be given to me (as punishment?).

I'd truly appreciate as many suggestions as possible. I've been struggling with this today.

Thank you and thank you for listening!

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

It's hard to say without knowing the larger context, but I think if a person (such as the one saying "you're angry") doesn't want to talk, there's no way to make them talk -- just as there's no way we can stop alcoholics drinking. And if they want to be unreasonable and not have a reasonable conversation, we can't control that. So I guess if someone said "You're angry" (meaning "You're angry so I won't talk to you"), I might say, "Well, actually I am angry right now. Do you want to hear how I think we might make things better?" Or "It could well be. Things have been difficult." Or "It could well be. Now, about what I was asking..." We don't have to get involved in a debate about being angry. On the other hand, we can't make them stick to the topic if they're determined not to.

Trying to have a reasonable debate with my A was like trying to staple Jell-O to the wall. I don't think anything I said could have changed that -- heaven knows I tried. Sometimes the calmest thing to do is just to detach with love and thank our lucky stars that we're not alcoholics.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Bud it is difficult to know exactly what to say in this circumstance.

I know when someone tries to tell me how I feel ,I "Say no you are incorrect I am" confused, sad, have mixed emotions because "and then validate my position whatever that is.

Can you go into more details?

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes, this is the second time I'm experiencing this... it is when the other person knows how they want to conversation to go and forces it. Once they say, "you're angry"- it seems that anything I say after that has already been invalidated. And, if I become angry, it becomes fulfilling their prophesy.

This time it is my crazy-making Mom. It is a long story, but she has had very bad behavior and accused me of being angry in order to shut me down, even as she asks me for a favor. This isn't old age- this is my Mom. I do not want to participate in her insanity. She said she no longer wants to have a relationship with me because I don't agree with her and am (allegedly) an angry person. She hung up the phone without saying good bye.

I know better. She isn't done yet. It is not her pattern. I'd like to feel more prepared for her return, or, she may try to get my Dad involved (who doesn't really understand what he would be doing.)

I'm other wise not engaging with Mom. I'd still like to have a relationship with Dad, but know this may not be possible. Sad!

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

I understand Bud you are not angry you are sad. I know that being honest about my sadness and fear were very difficult because I felt so vulnerable and powerless when I had those feelings . I changed these two emotions into anger so I could strike out and feel powerful, Your mom is the angry one and placing her feelings on you My mom did the same.

I agree she will be back and you will be stronger. Owning my feelings in a meeting and at alanon workshops really helped me to know that being vulnerable and humble was not the same as being dependent and lost Being humble meant I accepted my powerless over people and trusted HP for guidance Being sad meant I was human and grieving a loss. that is all.

Pray ask HP for courage, serenity and wisdom and you will know how to respond

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes, exactly Betty. Thank you for direction... I guess when my head gets spinning, I look for how to fix things rather than return to the steps and my HP.

Grateful, thank you for the reply. You did get my Mom's thought process down. I did not accuse her, just asked for respect in going forward. I am powerless over her feelings of rejection or her unwillingness to agree to disagree. I am not going to agree with her and accept disrespectful behavior to make temporary "peace". I am happy to say what I had to and let it go. Mom doesn't have a track record of letting go - she seems to lack basic coping skills.

Thank you Mattie. I did my best to stick to the topic and agree with what you said. My Mom is not responding rationally.

I thought to bring the anger question up because this happened before with a friend, who did something unethical that hurt me emotionally and then took my inventory by saying that I'm angry. When I replied that I am not, she insisted, "you MUST be angry- look at what you've been through". Wow! Thankfully I have Alanon and know that anger is a human emotion but to live in anger is a choice.

Some people, as their way of operating, go on the offense after they've done something that they know is wrong. I know this is what is going on in these situations. Saying the other person is angry is disarming them, attempts to remove credibility, and tries to make them a victim. People who say this from this motive is like stepping on them to feel more powerful- it's bullying.

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks Grateful. This is something I can practice when Mom does decide to call. I appreciate. I know when she contacts me next it will be because she feels she has a secure plan that will torture me into submission. I'm glad that isn't a fact!

((Grateful)) I know it wasn't said kindly, so I understand and am not minimizing... it did strike my funny bone though- I'd take young lady over little girl... the term young lady can also be associated with beauty, burgeoning wisdom and grace... whereas, little girl is more carefree but vulnerable and has yet to learn wisdom or grace... I'm silly.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi, Bud. Trust me. It struck me funny, too. I know you can see it because your Mom is pulling the same thing - just using different words. My Mom was still trying to "raise me" from her death bed. And - I totally understand you not wanting to make peace for the sake of peace - my Mom would do everything she could to get a rise out of me - and when she did - my Dad would come to me and say, "Life is short. Go in and apologize to your Mom.
Make peace." I get it. I lived with it, too. I get the being powerless over her feelings, too. What I was suggesting had more to do with a way to save yourself from her constant badgering by going in a direction she isn't used to going with you. If your Mom is anything like mine was in relationship to me, you'll never get the kind of respect you'd like from her. She wants a one-way relationship. My daughter had to point that out to me near the end of my Mom's life. I just couldn't see it. Of course, if you utilize the rejection piece I suggested, she could always say something like "Are you patronizing me, Young Lady - oops, I mean - Little Girl." It is a pain, isn't it. We do love our Moms, but they can't see it and they're mad because they think we don't love them and beat up on us emotionally because they don't love themselves. And - they're mad because they can see we love our Dads.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Bud...welcome to the world of changing the things I can. I so relate to the subject of strained relationships that seem to go on for ever and ever. Thank God for Al-Anon and the lessons on acceptance and keeping it simple. I accepted my mother for who and what she was and was taught that "she did and was doing the best she could with what she had". The next thing I had to do was get over all of the residual fears and resentments I had because being the "new me" had to be without the old me attached and what helped soooo much was practicing the art of unconditional forgiveness and love...worked miracles and allowed me to get past that things that came with my mom that I "could not" and "would not" change. I had lots of time to enjoy stuff with her and have a new relationship when I didn't react to the "old her" of my youth and just let her be. Even on her death bed when she was so full of negative wits my wife and I brought the program to her in the slogans and amazing (though they should not be) teaching Mom the slogans quieted her spirit. At another time I got past the "parents" positions and saw them simply as a woman and a man...who argued and fought and disrespected each other and put each other down and with the direction and allowance of my HP counseled them as a couple for 45 minutes. I saw them only as human beings fighting for serenity (we all do) and using the wrong tools and methods and perspectives. One session with them listening only and not speaking until I was done (wow!! who would have ever thought little Jerry could ever pull that one off!) and then gone. The next evening at the hospital (she had broken her hip and needed surgery) as I was leaving my step-Father called me back into the room where they both expressed their gratitudes and humility at being teachable.

All of the program; as suggested and with my HP and sponsors altered "my part in it" and therefore "my outcome". If you can spend some time working on the realization that you mom is a "sister" and you dad as "brother" with all of you having the same father (Higher Power) the playing field might change as it did for me. I am forever grateful for this huge shift in my life then and now. Power roles are diminished or eliminated and I get to be uniquely me...not someone elses me...HP's me. The best me I can be with what I have. Let go of the past...unconditionally forgive and love and accept. When I let go of the past I also let go of alot of the power that held me to the problem. HP and MIP all want to see you better and doing better...go ahead and do that. In love and service and support (((((hugs))))) smile

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Remember also that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being angry. There's something wrong with being abusive, insulting, catty, yelling, etc. But those are not synonymous with being angry. You can be angry and calm. You can be angry and healthy. You can be angry and self-protective (in fact being justifiably angry is being self-protective). You can be angry and gentle. If someone mistreats you, it's normal and healthy to feel angry. It's how you express and deal with the anger that matters. If your mother says, "You're angry," you can say something like, "Yep, you know, I was. I wish you'd told me you were going to change your plans. What's happening next?" Being angry doesn't invalidate you or make you wrong. It sounds to me as if your mother has some erroneous ideas that the angry person "loses." But you don't have to buy int her ideas.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

well I am one to be a smart A. Sorta depends who this person is. But then if they are manipulating or trying to manipulate you....

I would say,"Like I care what you believe." That is that.with an incredulous look like whatever.

Don't give them any power over you. "well I am rubber you are glue bounce off me and sticks to you."

I mean really if we don't give it any energy at all it has no power.

them, "You are angry." You, "have you tried those mangos at Safeway?" them again....you know, i think I will rent that movie in red box thing. IGNORE and change subject...lol

hugginng you. Maybe lighten up, who cares what they think!!!??? I sure don't.... huggen ya,debilyn

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

What about those mangos at Subway?

hahahahaha

Sometimes, if the timing is right, I have used metacommunication...or communication about communication. For example, I would say "Mom, when you state that I am angry, it feels like you are completely invalidating my feelings...like because I'm angry, my feelings no longer count" I would remind her that because I am angry does not mean I am irrational...or wrong, for that matter.

But, this approach has only worked for me when people are rational. Not sure where your mom is with that...

I also wondered if it is less about you and more about HER. Maybe she is just verbalizing "she is angry" in order to minimize the reality that her behavior is BAD and is affecting you negatively. If you and your anger can be dismissed, then she doesn't have to own her bad behavior that caused the anger, right? This may just be a strategy on her part...to make things okay in her own mind.

Isn't crazymaking FUN?

Hang in there,

RP

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Hugs bud,

Hang in there, .. when dealing with the STBAX's drinking mom and s/dad what grateful suggested is exactly what I would do in those situations. I can remember him and his brothers spending hours on the phone dealing with this kind of behavior only in their case it was drunk behavior. I can tell you she was shocked when I said, it sounds like you aren't feeling like yourself at the moment, why don't you call back when you feel better and ended the phone call. This way I kept my power in the situation validated that I understood she wasn't herself and then allowed her the time to figure out what happened and call back when she was ready to be clearer, I don't think it was ever sober though. At least it stopped being horribly abusive when those boundaries were stuck to. I wish you could have seen him and his 2 grown brothers faces when that happened and she did call back many days later and apologized I thought all 3 were going to have heart failure on the spot.

You are right you don't have to tolerate unacceptable behavior and you can say what you mean, mean what you say and not say it mean. I know I always want those who are hardest on me to be the ones to tell me that I'm ok and loveable .. I know I keep preaching the whole self validation stuff however I'm really seeing for me that it is the core of a lot of my issues within myself and in my outside relationships. I'm soooo glad I have alanon to show me I don't have to stay stuck in those patterns.

Hugs P :)

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I completely understand your struggles. It took me a long time before I wasn't triggered by my dad's comments. I spent many hours visualizing him as a small boy experiencing his hell before my heart finally began to open for him so I could feel compassion. I did not want him to die living in my hard heart. Now, he is struggling with early dementia/alzheimer's. I am so grateful that I allowed God, the 12-steps and other work to work magic on this tough little cookie!

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

A huge thanks and big Alanon hug to everyone- all good things for me to digest and practice. I'm feeling better having alternatives! I'm so grateful!

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