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Hi there.... I am new to this site, and not sure if I am even posting in the right place. I'm not even positive what I need to be doing. I was never raised with anyone who had alcoholism, so this is all very new to me. All I know is that I am exhausted, and pretty sure I have tried everything under the sun with my husband. All of which I am sure are all wrong. I've begged, pleaded, cried, screamed... he has told me he will never stop drinking.
There are times he says he is not an alcholic, and then there are other times he says "I sure I am one".... Sounds stupid, but its been hard for me to realize he might be. He doesn't drink everyday, he doesn't have work issues, nor do we have money issues. He takes his job very seriously, and does very well at it. But every where else, we have issues.
It doesn't happen everytime he has been drinking, its very weird, its almost like its on a time schedule of once a month now. But he flips out, calls me every name in the book, has said the most hurtful awful things, from that I am ugly, to I'm not part of his family, to making fun of me for my parents not being around, and making fun of me for even very hurtful sexual abuse from my childhood. I feel like I can not talk to him about anything, or tell him anything... because when his explosion rolls around he uses it agaisnt me. If I am sick, I have to act like I'm not, because that might come up one night where he says "your always sick".... its just crazy making.
He was at first the most wonderful, loving man. I thought I had hit the jack pot. I saw his drinking back then as just having a good time. But as we have gotten older, and it continues, I am realizing its much deeper than that. Like I said, he doesn't drink everyday, but if its a Saturday, he will have no problem in drinking anywhere from 9-17 hours straight.
When this first started coming up, and he started becoming verbally abusive, I would beg and plead for him to be nice, and to not leave (that is what he always threatens me with). He basically ignored me for almost 3 years, going out with his friends 5-6 nights every week. And me hearing at least once a week how he didn't love me and wanted a divorce. I should have left him, but cowardly did not, and instead had an Affair. I am in no way blaming him for me doing this, I am saying that I was lonely, and I guess that filled something with in me. Since he has known about this affair (6 years ago), he has blamed his hatred and disguist and actions on me doing that. But, he was like this before.
Like I said, its not weekly now, its more like once a month we go through this. The monthly occurence was last saturday, were he flew off the handle when I gave an opinion, and then twisted it and told me that I was talking crap about a family member of his. All I was saying was that I didn't agree with something. Then it was taken into that I hate everyone in his family, and always talk crap about them, and then of course it came up that I was a liar and a manipulator, and how I wasn't part of his family, and on and on and on. I can never get a word in, he always yells and yells and yells. So this time I decided I would not do as I normally do (I usually will try and talk to him a couple days later), this time I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, and I have not spoke to him. Well Thursday night (one of his boys nights) he came home, and proceeded to yell at me some more, twist more of what I was saying, and was mad because I hadn't come to him and apologize, and of course now he wants a divorce.
I am still standing my ground, I have no spoke to him. He has been gone out with his buddy's since 7 a.m. drinking, and it is now midnight. Its like the more and more I stand my ground, the more and more he up's what he does.
Is all of this normal for these people??? Am I even making sense??? What on earth do I do??? H.E.L.P.
The answer is yes. It sounds like typical alcoholic behavior. You're not stupid at all. It creeps up on you and all of a sudden things are insane. Glad you found this site but sorry for what you are dealing with. Stick around and read up. You will recognize a lot of the stories.
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"Just being there for someone can sometimes bring hope when all seems hopeless." - Dave G. Llewellyn
Glad to help. They will make you feel crazy. There is a book that I would suggest to you. Getting Them Sober by Toby Rice Drews. The title is a little deceiving as the book talks about how to change yourself and your reactions. If you google it, you can read excerpts to see if it is something you would find helpful.
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"Just being there for someone can sometimes bring hope when all seems hopeless." - Dave G. Llewellyn
Welcome, You are not stupid at all, I can relate to a lot of what you have said in your post. Getting Them Sober has been a very helpful book for me, I hope you find it useful. I wonder if you have an alanon support group in your area? I found it hugely helpful when I first went to a meeting, it helped me to see my situation more clearly and to understand that I did have choices.
I think first you should resign up and change your screen name to Apparentlysmart because you are not stupid. I used that word once in a post and was told never to use stupid again. We are told so many times its our fault or were crazy we tend to believe it after a while.
You are not alone and we are all here to help each other. I would also suggest to find a local Al-anon meeting and be with others and know exactly what your going though.
Again welcome to MIP and please continue to come back.....we are here for you and this fellowship is the best
((( hugs )))
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Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
Because I was curious after reading your post, I went to the board's search feature and typed in the word "Crazy" - full page of posts regarding the topic, so you see, you are not alone! Early in my time here I posted something about the board helping me to see that my A's behavior was "normal" and someone said, it wasn't normal behavior but what I meant was it was normal behavior for an A. "They" are able to make us feel like we are the crazy ones because they start out normal, sweet, loving, etc and during/after a fight they are so adamant in their claims that it is YOU that is off, not them that you doubt your own footing in the world. Some of my A's statements were so crazy I could not help but think I was crazy for hearing what I was hearing.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
And Welcome! You've gotten some good feedback. I second buying Getting Them Sober. When you see all his behaviors right there in black and white, written by someone who never met the man and hasn't been in your house, it does something for your faith in your own sanity. And Toby Rice Drews gives you so much support in taking yourself out of earshot when he is being abusive.. And that is the first step in taking care of you.
The book could use a subtitle: Taking care of you when you are living with a crazy person. Cause that is what it is all about.
My husband has been dry but not sober for 40 years, and I just bought the book again and read it and it is so very helpful. The author advises AlAnon meetings, too. Strongly.
Blessings, Temple
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It's easy to be graceful until someone steals your cornbread. --Gray Charles
Hello, you are most defineltley in the right place. Welcome. You have just described my life with my ex alcoholic. He would twist things and I thought it was me too. He was very clever really. I remember at uni learning about the Skinner box where rats were given rewards at different times. The rats that were rewarded sporadically became addicted to seeking a reward. I think that was it. Anyway my point is that my ex would be nice and then horrible for ages then out of the blue nice and so on. I became Skinner's rat in that I was waiting on my reward obsessivley. I was addicted to him. I remember him telling me that I should see a shrink, well actually he was right I was mad or the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over but expecting different results. That was me. I got out but it seems i have another battle on my hands with my son who is displaying very similar behaviours to my ex. Anyway, I hope you come back as we are all kindred spirits here.x
First off, let me say THANK YOU to all of you for your sweet posts. I will try to reply to each of them, for I have so many questions for each of you. This entire situation literally blows my mind. As I am sure it did each of you. How in the world did I end up married to an A??? I MAYBE have a cocktail twice a year. I have never been around this, so again it took me obviously a while to admit it. I think its been very difficult for me to admit it to myself, I mean really admit it. For a year or so now its like I knew he was one, and I would say it.... but it really has sunk into my core that he is one. (don't know if thats making sense). There is a part of me, okay a big part that is embarrassed that I am married to an A, and even more so embarrassed I have stayed and taken literally what I feel like is torture.
I have always thought of myself as a strong woman, someone who stands up for herself. I think that maybe at one point I was.... I honestly can't even remember who I used to be. I just know who I am now. Which seems to be someone who thinks she deserves this??? I think I have carried the guilt from my own things I have done, and taken it all as being my fault. I am "no fun", I am "crazy", I am "stupid", I am "trying to kill his good times", blah blah blah.
About 6 months ago, I was at a girlfriends house, I remember her talking about her M issues, pretty typical and common ones she has. There were two things that stuck out to me.... One, I thought "man, I wish my M issues were so little", and two she was talking about a guy that was at her work that she noticed flirting with her. I asked her more about it, and of course because of my past experiences warned her about that slippery slope. But something came up and she said "Its just nice when you notice someone looking at you, that you still "got it" ".... and I had said "no one looks at me", she just turned her head and literally looked shocked. I'm not saying I am the most beautiful thing in the world, but I do know I am very pretty. So, how do I know I am pretty, and KNOW I am pretty??? How come I don't notice if someone looks my way??? I started to realize then how much my AH's words and actions had made me think I wasn't anything even worth looking at. Now, please don't take that as I think the only self worth a woman gets is if a man looks at her, it was just something I had noticed. That I know I am x,y,z.... but because of everything i guess I don't really feel I am still x,y,z.
This week, I have realized how much my AH hates me. It was like a brick being thrown in my face when i realized it. That this man, a man who is supposed to be my protector, my friend.... went as far as to make up a lie about me, just so he could say I was a manipulator and liar. So, he in fact was manipulating and lying all in an attempt to say I was. HUH??? And that is when it hit me. He is not my protector, he is my abuser, he is not my friend, he is my worst enemy, he is not someone who lifts me up, he is someone who drags me and my soul down and talks more crap on me than anyone. I'm not going to lie, it hurts. And there is a part of me that wishes he would come in and say "oh my, I am so sorry".... but sorry is not a word in his vocab.
So, here I sit.... yet another holiday, by myself, with no real family. It happens more often than not, especially on holidays. I have not had a decent valentines, mothers day, etc. in years. I have not been told that I was pretty in 10 years, or that I was worthy in 10 years. I am alone, and sad.
To each of you, yes I looked up an alanon meeting, there is a beginner meeting on Tuesday, and I plan on going. I looked up that book last night, and will order it. I need all the help I can get.
So, do I tell him I'm doing these things??? He of course is still acting like a jerk, we still haven't talked. he just left the house... who knows where he is going. I figured he would be laid up on the couch all day, since he was out drinking for 19 hours yesterday.... wish i had that kind of energy.
Is it typical for them to mess up holidays on purpose???? How do I handle things until Tuesday when i go to the meeting?? Continue to not talk to him??
Sorry for all the questions... I am clueless, and as I said above, obviously have done everything wrong.
Thank you for the support. I feel like a kid who was adopted, and am finding my real family.... like their are others out there like me.
Are you still with your A?? I guess I don't understand how I am supposed to just "let things slide" or am I just missing the point?? i guess I have seen things as if I don't say something, I am just not standing up for myself. But I guess its me learning the right way to say things....
Thank you Temple!! Sorry guys, I replied to your messages, and then I noticed it didn't show who I was replying to. Bare with me, I'll figure this out. :)
Temple wrote:
Hi, Apparently Married to an Alcoholic,
And Welcome! You've gotten some good feedback. I second buying Getting Them Sober. When you see all his behaviors right there in black and white, written by someone who never met the man and hasn't been in your house, it does something for your faith in your own sanity. And Toby Rice Drews gives you so much support in taking yourself out of earshot when he is being abusive.. And that is the first step in taking care of you.
The book could use a subtitle: Taking care of you when you are living with a crazy person. Cause that is what it is all about.
My husband has been dry but not sober for 40 years, and I just bought the book again and read it and it is so very helpful. The author advises AlAnon meetings, too. Strongly.
I don't think your AH hates you. He is so caught up in his disease he can't even think of anyone else right now or feelings you might have. He knows what he does....doesn't need anyone telling him all the time. You need to know the in's and out's of Alcoholism. Read, read and read some more.
Why I say is he doesn't need anyone to tell him means........detach with love. Let him go and let HP take care of him. You need to start taking care of you and you can do that by attending meetings, reading and coming here. When you let go you can have more peace not being mad or hurt by him. Saying less is more in my book. I found fighting with a A is a waste of time and energy.
He is going to drink or he's not....what are you going to do.
Welcome....you are not alone...we are here 24/7
((( hugs )))
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Lord, put your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth
Speak only when you feel that your words are better than your silence.
Temple, one question... and I apologize for not knowing much about this... you said your husband is dry? What is that?
Temple wrote:
Hi, Apparently Married to an Alcoholic,
And Welcome! You've gotten some good feedback. I second buying Getting Them Sober. When you see all his behaviors right there in black and white, written by someone who never met the man and hasn't been in your house, it does something for your faith in your own sanity. And Toby Rice Drews gives you so much support in taking yourself out of earshot when he is being abusive.. And that is the first step in taking care of you.
The book could use a subtitle: Taking care of you when you are living with a crazy person. Cause that is what it is all about.
My husband has been dry but not sober for 40 years, and I just bought the book again and read it and it is so very helpful. The author advises AlAnon meetings, too. Strongly.
Thank you. Okay, I'm going to go out and look up detaching with love, as you mentioned. I have often wonder if he hates me or if its the disease, but at the end of the day... does that matter?? its hurtful either way. But, I will read up.
I don't want to waste anymore of my time, I feel like that is all I have been doing. its literally like beating your head up agaisnt a wall, talking to them. It just gets worse, no matter what you say. I told him the other night, he argues with himself...
So he really knows what he is doing??? Even what he is doing to others??? I have never felt like he ever knew what he did was not okay. Of course, he has become the best at acting. He missed his calling. :)
Cathyinaz wrote:
I don't think your AH hates you. He is so caught up in his disease he can't even think of anyone else right now or feelings you might have. He knows what he does....doesn't need anyone telling him all the time. You need to know the in's and out's of Alcoholism. Read, read and read some more.
Why I say is he doesn't need anyone to tell him means........detach with love. Let him go and let HP take care of him. You need to start taking care of you and you can do that by attending meetings, reading and coming here. When you let go you can have more peace not being mad or hurt by him. Saying less is more in my book. I found fighting with a A is a waste of time and energy.
He is going to drink or he's not....what are you going to do.
Oh and someone mentioned me going to counseling... I have been in counseling for 4 years, dealing with my own issues. Funny, I started after my affair came out.... and my AH calls me selfish for going. :) i think he doesn't like seeing me stand up for myself.
I just wanted to second what Cathy says about saying less. When I've try to explain how I feel to my AH I just end up frustrated, abused and on a short fuse. He does not need me to tell him how he is behaving. When he is being a prat it might be unconscious but he knows it isn't right. In fact when I stopped saying anything about him and started to get on with my own life my husband ranted a couple of times and then, incredibly, stopped drinking. He has had a few relapses since and it is not an easy road, but for now it is our path.
I was totally shocked when someone pointed out to me that I was in an abusive relationship. I was brought up reading Cosmopolitan and I've always supported myself. There was, I thought, no way that I would ever have taken any abuse from anyone. But these things creep up on us and I've decided that I prefer not to define myself based on my husband's behaviour! Once I got over the shock I've found it useful to see his behaviour for what it is - the effect of addiction and not something that I need or will tolerate in my life.
The most important thing for me is to listen to my own needs, to value my self esteem above all else and to enjoy the good things in life. I am not so far ahead of you in my realisations of what has been going on. It is a learning curve to say the least. I am taking my time, living in the moment so to speak but just evaluating what I want and what I don't need right now. Finding these pages has helped me hugely and I love your description of a new family - welcome to the clan!
Dry means he doesn't drink. Not sober means he has dry drunks and acts just about as abusive and nuts as if he did, at times.
Ms. Drew says don't announce to him what you are going to do. Just do it.
You don't have to stay with him. What I like about the Sober books, well, lots of things, but she says you can stay, you can go (staying is not an option if he is physically abusive), you can leave and go back, as many times as you need to, whatever it takes for You to take care of You in the timeframe that is right for You. But she is very clear about not being available for him to insult you, put you down, call you names.
I like how she says to handle him if you have to be around him--act slightly bemused and only halfway listening. It may make him crazier and he may get more verbally abusive, and that means you are getting somewhere. She has me thinking of where I can go for an hour, half a day, a day, or a few days the next time he comes down with what I have come to think of as a case of the Mean Bastards. I have, over the last 4 and a half years, gotten myself wound up into a smaller and smaller ball, and have retreared to my room more and more. So I really have to work on gettring up and out of here. I went to Paris for two weeks in December with my grandson, and that was a turning point for me. I think it was an eye-opener for AH as well. Because he is more afraid of being alone than I am. The things you learn over time. And I have taken such a very long time to learn things.
Congratulations, because it looks as if you are ready to make changes. Keep in touch with us. Some of us have a whole lot of AlAnon recovery (I do not count myself among them) and you will get so much help and you will see examples of what recovery and serenity look like on the spouse of an alcoholic--whether the alcoholic quits or not. And whether the spouse stays or leaves. I am finally getting it that it is inappropriare to tell somebody else to leave (unless she is in physical danger) because each case is different and we all have different tolerances and when people get talked into leaving before they are ready in their heart of hearts, it can slow down the recovery process.
I thinkj I have written too much. It is nice to see that you aren't in a lot of denial about what is happening, and it kind of opened the floodgates.
Hugs...
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It's easy to be graceful until someone steals your cornbread. --Gray Charles
Thank you Milkwood. :) I am reading up on things I can find on the interenet today, and ordered my book. So hopefully once that comes in it can help me.
I totally understand what you are saying about being more frustrated... if I try to talk to him about my feelings when he is drunk, oh dear lord, I am made fun of, mocked, told I'm an idiot. When I have tried the way of letting the dust settle and talk to him, he sits there and acts like he's listening, but I don't think he is. So, I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, you said to say "less". Does that mean i say nothing??? I just let all of this slide?? I will be honest, that is a hard pill for me to swallow, as I think I should say "your not going to talk to me this way".... but honestly, I can't count the times I have said that...and here we are. I know I am asking a lot of questions, but I just want to make sure I handle the next couple of days right. So far, I haven't spoke a word to him. I just don't feel that is my place to keep coming to him, and try and "resolve" this. BUT, funny enough... that has made him mad. I'm learning no matter what I do, I make him mad. He changes the "rules" on a daily basis. If he gets upset about something, and says he hates that I do it, If I try and change it, then he is upset by something else, again... crazy making.
I understand the "creeping up" on you. I think at first you just let it slide because they obviously are having a hard time at work, stressed out, dealing with something from the past, something I did, he's mad at me...and the excuses have gone on and on and on.... then you just have that moment, where you realize that no matter what they are dealing with, no matter what you have done to make them mad, no matter how stressed out they are.... there is no excuse for someone to talk to someone so foul. And the things they say, its so deep, its nothing else but abuse. Its a very difficult realization what you have allowed. :(
And someone earlier had mentioned you get addicted to the small things here and there they might do.... that is so true. You wait for them to be sweet, and then soak it up when they are, feel like a queen. Unfortunately, the sweetness seems to get less and less, and this monster comes out more and more, drunk or not. My AH is not as bad sober as he is when he is drunk, but he is still by no means sweet as he used to be.
Today, and for the next few days is my "punishment". He will blow up on me, (which sometimes I think is an excuse to go out and party), then do what he did yesterday, drink for literally almost 24 hours, and then we have about 4-5 days of him giving me the silent treatment.... punshing me, for what??? That is something I can not figure out. However, I am learning, I can't figure out crazy.
milkwood wrote:
Hi Apparently Bright!
I just wanted to second what Cathy says about saying less. When I've try to explain how I feel to my AH I just end up frustrated, abused and on a short fuse. He does not need me to tell him how he is behaving. When he is being a prat it might be unconscious but he knows it isn't right. In fact when I stopped saying anything about him and started to get on with my own life my husband ranted a couple of times and then, incredibly, stopped drinking. He has had a few relapses since and it is not an easy road, but for now it is our path.
I was totally shocked when someone pointed out to me that I was in an abusive relationship. I was brought up reading Cosmopolitan and I've always supported myself. There was, I thought, no way that I would ever have taken any abuse from anyone. But these things creep up on us and I've decided that I prefer not to define myself based on my husband's behaviour! Once I got over the shock I've found it useful to see his behaviour for what it is - the effect of addiction and not something that I need or will tolerate in my life.
The most important thing for me is to listen to my own needs, to value my self esteem above all else and to enjoy the good things in life. I am not so far ahead of you in my realisations of what has been going on. It is a learning curve to say the least. I am taking my time, living in the moment so to speak but just evaluating what I want and what I don't need right now. Finding these pages has helped me hugely and I love your description of a new family - welcome to the clan!
You asked a few questions that I think I might have some ESH on (slang lingo there for Experience, Strength, and Hope which is what we try and impart to each other). The overriding thing I want to tell you is that alcoholics are like giant bullies and the way to handle them is often very similar to how you would tell a child to handle a bully at school. The reason they resemble childish bullies is because their emotional functioning is stuck at the level of a child/teenager because that is typically when alcoholics start drinking and when their ability to comprehend and cope with adult issue, intimacy, and so forth stops. If they had progressed further at one time, drinking addictively will cause it to regress. The reason they act like bullies is because they want to guilt you, embarrass you, shame you, and manipulate you into enabling them and giving them what they want. So...responding to them with similar tactics to a childish bully is often useful. Usually we would tell our kids to not engage with bullies and to ignore them. On the level of dealing with an alcoholic, this would become the art of detachment as it's hard to totally ignore someone you are married to and not all of his behaviors are as necessary to detach from as the ones directly tied to alcoholism and drinking. They bully you to keep you weak and isolated too and this is because, if you are without a support network, who will you go to in order to get away from them when they act up? Also, they don't want you having too many friends cuz the friends could convince you not to tolerate their behavior. All the attacks you mentioned to me sound just like a childish bully not getting his way. The whole "You are not my family. Don't talk about my family....blah blah" That is directly on the level with a brooding preteen/teenager telling their parents "Don't talk about my friends!!! You don't understand my friends so you don't get to talk about them! I'm not talking to you!!" and then the teenager goes running off to their room and slamming the door or going out the front door to escape and complain about their "mean, square, and good time ruining" parents. Because they act so childish and so bullying, the automatic pull is for you to act parenting and controlling and you no longer have a relationship of equals and one where love is given freely and fully. It starts becoming more like you are hostage to their disease and all the sickness, tantrums, and other dynamics that go along with it. Alanon will help you just stop playing their game all together. Instead of being a largely overlooked supporting actress in the "All about me alcoholic show" you suddenly get to become the star of your own show again.
As to whether they are aware of what they are doing.... Yes and no. You are dealing with a person whose ability to be aware and accept things fluctuates wildly due to his having very poor emotional maturity and coping and then throw on top of that the fact that they are dousing themself with intoxicants that also impair his ability to be aware and accept things. So at certain times when he has more clarity than others, he knows he has a problem and that is when you get the admissions of being an alcoholic and maybe even some apologies. When inebriated or feeling attacked (which is often cuz alcoholics can feel attacked when nobody has done anything to them) they don't admit to, acknowledge, or accept much of any personal responsibility. Their denial, projection (basically all defense mechanisms) are so amped up that it's literally ridiculous.
It is often stated that an alcoholic is "an egomaniac with an inferiority complex." This means that they strut around with their feather all poofed out, they are often bossy, opinionated. loud and self-centered to the max but when challenged they fly into victim mode and "poor me" and sob stories about getting crapped on and how nobody else has it as bad as them or they start ranting about how they are being attacked, put down, or disrespected by others. This is what you are dealing with.
No you are not stupid or crazy. How you describe yourself now is how anybody would feel after a close up daily dose of this for 10 years. Yeah...you do have your own part in it too and that is worth looking at, but this is what an alcoholic is and typically how they act.
In alanon you will find suggestions for your own personal growth, for managing situations with the alcoholic in your life, and for how to maximize your own happiness regardless of what they do.
When folks come into alanon they are often asking "what should I do?" because they are so tired of being blamed and manipulated by the alcoholic. They also want to do what makes the alcoholic better and they want to get back the person that the alcoholic was before the disease took over. You could be waiting forever for them to actually get sober and change....Hence, the answer is usually to do what you feel like doing and to do what is right one situation at a time, one day at a time, and even one minute at a time if necessary. The program is spiritual because while your husband might no longer be the best support to you, your higher power can and alway will be there and your higher power is the one to turn to with things that are totally out of your control. After years of making decisions based on walking on eggshells so as not to trip off the angry drunk or thinking it will make them worse or not make them better, we just surrender and start making decisions based on spiritual principles which are independent of others. That is detachment in a nutshell. Sometimes that means ignoring. Sometimes it means going along with. Sometimes it means setting boundaries and limits. Sometimes it means walking away. Sometimes it mean sitting still/doing nothing. Sometimes if means leaving for good. When to do what? How? Which one? This is my person guide for that and I heard it in my first 12 step meeting:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
I will pray for you but I also want to tell you that I feel very hopeful for you because the words you are using and the way you are describing this situation sounds truly like you have hit your own bottom with it and are ready to go upwards with our without him.
Interesting. I have had times that my AH hasn't drank in a few days and will start his insanity, and I always wonder if he has been, but I know he hasn't. I can always tell when something is "brewing" in him.
I know I don't have to stay with him, and I know I don't have to leave. Of course in a perfect world, I would like to stay and have a good marriage. I am just not for sure if that will be an option for me. But I do know, I have not handled things right, I'm sure. I've tried like I said before, everything from crying, screaming, etc. I would like to try things the "right way" and see what unfolds. I pray constantly, and I know God can heal anything.... hopefully he will with this.
Again, thank you thank you thank you for the support. I can't tell you how wonderful it is.
Temple wrote:
Dry means he doesn't drink. Not sober means he has dry drunks and acts just about as abusive and nuts as if he did, at times.
Ms. Drew says don't announce to him what you are going to do. Just do it.
You don't have to stay with him. What I like about the Sober books, well, lots of things, but she says you can stay, you can go (staying is not an option if he is physically abusive), you can leave and go back, as many times as you need to, whatever it takes for You to take care of You in the timeframe that is right for You. But she is very clear about not being available for him to insult you, put you down, call you names.
I like how she says to handle him if you have to be around him--act slightly bemused and only halfway listening. It may make him crazier and he may get more verbally abusive, and that means you are getting somewhere. She has me thinking of where I can go for an hour, half a day, a day, or a few days the next time he comes down with what I have come to think of as a case of the Mean Bastards. I have, over the last 4 and a half years, gotten myself wound up into a smaller and smaller ball, and have retreared to my room more and more. So I really have to work on gettring up and out of here. I went to Paris for two weeks in December with my grandson, and that was a turning point for me. I think it was an eye-opener for AH as well. Because he is more afraid of being alone than I am. The things you learn over time. And I have taken such a very long time to learn things.
Congratulations, because it looks as if you are ready to make changes. Keep in touch with us. Some of us have a whole lot of AlAnon recovery (I do not count myself among them) and you will get so much help and you will see examples of what recovery and serenity look like on the spouse of an alcoholic--whether the alcoholic quits or not. And whether the spouse stays or leaves. I am finally getting it that it is inappropriare to tell somebody else to leave (unless she is in physical danger) because each case is different and we all have different tolerances and when people get talked into leaving before they are ready in their heart of hearts, it can slow down the recovery process.
I thinkj I have written too much. It is nice to see that you aren't in a lot of denial about what is happening, and it kind of opened the floodgates.
WOW!!! This was amazing, and spot on!!! I literally sat here and read this, crying and at the same time feeling a sense of peace. Just knowing that someone understands, is so wonderful. I feel like no one has or does. Last night, as I was at my house, I was thinking about how I have friends out of town with their spouses for the holidays, friends that are having date nights with their husbands, and here I sit, not knowing where my A is, or what he is doing.... and how alone I was, and had been.
No, it seems that he doesn't want me to have many friends. But he will yell at me sometimes for not having any.... He will also tell me I hate his family, but the times I have gotten close to his sister, has yelled at me that I am "talking crap about him to his family". Its a no win situation. If I ever go do anything, he is mad and tells me "i'm right back into the old me".
As I said before, in a perfect world, I would love for my marriage to be healed. I will do whatever God wants me to do. But if this man or this situation doesn't change, I have no other option but to leave. I can not keep doing this forever. I can't imagine how much more down on myself I will be in another ten years. I have some financial things I have to get aligned before I could ever leave. I just started my own firm a couple of months ago, and its going to take a bit to get it up and going. I think I'm hitting the bottom, because I'm so sick of it, and because it seems to get more and more ridiculous. I'm not sure if that is because I am maturing and getting older, and he isn't.... or if it is really getting worse, maybe both.
I have one 17 year old son, I can't handle another.
Thank you for this, I can't not tell you how valuable your input has been.
pinkchip wrote:
Apparently,
You asked a few questions that I think I might have some ESH on (slang lingo there for Experience, Strength, and Hope which is what we try and impart to each other). The overriding thing I want to tell you is that alcoholics are like giant bullies and the way to handle them is often very similar to how you would tell a child to handle a bully at school. The reason they resemble childish bullies is because their emotional functioning is stuck at the level of a child/teenager because that is typically when alcoholics start drinking and when their ability to comprehend and cope with adult issue, intimacy, and so forth stops. If they had progressed further at one time, drinking addictively will cause it to regress. The reason they act like bullies is because they want to guilt you, embarrass you, shame you, and manipulate you into enabling them and giving them what they want. So...responding to them with similar tactics to a childish bully is often useful. Usually we would tell our kids to not engage with bullies and to ignore them. On the level of dealing with an alcoholic, this would become the art of detachment as it's hard to totally ignore someone you are married to and not all of his behaviors are as necessary to detach from as the ones directly tied to alcoholism and drinking. They bully you to keep you weak and isolated too and this is because, if you are without a support network, who will you go to in order to get away from them when they act up? Also, they don't want you having too many friends cuz the friends could convince you not to tolerate their behavior. All the attacks you mentioned to me sound just like a childish bully not getting his way. The whole "You are not my family. Don't talk about my family....blah blah" That is directly on the level with a brooding preteen/teenager telling their parents "Don't talk about my friends!!! You don't understand my friends so you don't get to talk about them! I'm not talking to you!!" and then the teenager goes running off to their room and slamming the door or going out the front door to escape and complain about their "mean, square, and good time ruining" parents. Because they act so childish and so bullying, the automatic pull is for you to act parenting and controlling and you no longer have a relationship of equals and one where love is given freely and fully. It starts becoming more like you are hostage to their disease and all the sickness, tantrums, and other dynamics that go along with it. Alanon will help you just stop playing their game all together. Instead of being a largely overlooked supporting actress in the "All about me alcoholic show" you suddenly get to become the star of your own show again.
As to whether they are aware of what they are doing.... Yes and no. You are dealing with a person whose ability to be aware and accept things fluctuates wildly due to his having very poor emotional maturity and coping and then throw on top of that the fact that they are dousing themself with intoxicants that also impair his ability to be aware and accept things. So at certain times when he has more clarity than others, he knows he has a problem and that is when you get the admissions of being an alcoholic and maybe even some apologies. When inebriated or feeling attacked (which is often cuz alcoholics can feel attacked when nobody has done anything to them) they don't admit to, acknowledge, or accept much of any personal responsibility. Their denial, projection (basically all defense mechanisms) are so amped up that it's literally ridiculous.
It is often stated that an alcoholic is "an egomaniac with an inferiority complex." This means that they strut around with their feather all poofed out, they are often bossy, opinionated. loud and self-centered to the max but when challenged they fly into victim mode and "poor me" and sob stories about getting crapped on and how nobody else has it as bad as them or they start ranting about how they are being attacked, put down, or disrespected by others. This is what you are dealing with.
No you are not stupid or crazy. How you describe yourself now is how anybody would feel after a close up daily dose of this for 10 years. Yeah...you do have your own part in it too and that is worth looking at, but this is what an alcoholic is and typically how they act.
In alanon you will find suggestions for your own personal growth, for managing situations with the alcoholic in your life, and for how to maximize your own happiness regardless of what they do.
When folks come into alanon they are often asking "what should I do?" because they are so tired of being blamed and manipulated by the alcoholic. They also want to do what makes the alcoholic better and they want to get back the person that the alcoholic was before the disease took over. You could be waiting forever for them to actually get sober and change....Hence, the answer is usually to do what you feel like doing and to do what is right one situation at a time, one day at a time, and even one minute at a time if necessary. The program is spiritual because while your husband might no longer be the best support to you, your higher power can and alway will be there and your higher power is the one to turn to with things that are totally out of your control. After years of making decisions based on walking on eggshells so as not to trip off the angry drunk or thinking it will make them worse or not make them better, we just surrender and start making decisions based on spiritual principles which are independent of others. That is detachment in a nutshell. Sometimes that means ignoring. Sometimes it means going along with. Sometimes it means setting boundaries and limits. Sometimes it means walking away. Sometimes it mean sitting still/doing nothing. Sometimes if means leaving for good. When to do what? How? Which one? This is my person guide for that and I heard it in my first 12 step meeting:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
I will pray for you but I also want to tell you that I feel very hopeful for you because the words you are using and the way you are describing this situation sounds truly like you have hit your own bottom with it and are ready to go upwards with our without him.
Aloha Apparently Bright or anything better than stupid...the best person available to help you feel better about yourself is yourself. Change your self perception. You know he's wrong when he calls you names and unloads on you...do verify him. Promise
Clue Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical...Your husband is altered and you don't get prenotice when the right one is in the room with you until you come to learn what we have come to learn. Each of them gets the same you...he doesn't get a less than you when he drinks and doesn't get a better than you when he doesn't. He is altered...mind, body, spirit and emotions. He is not what you expected and then you haven't learned as much as you need to know about alcoholism yet. One of the simple things that is said about alcoholism...which is a disease and not a moral issue...is that it is cunning, powerful and baffling so when it knocks you down and for a loop you got another demonstration of it. Another simple thing you need to know is that you didnh't Cause it....you cannot Control it....and you will not be able to Cure it. It is incureable...it can only be arrested by total abstinence. It is progressive meaning that if he continues to drink it will only get worse never better.
How did you get involved with an alcoholic? You liked him and thought him hansome and worthwhile...had he been drunk and abusive when you met you might not have and then there are many who will walk right past this alcoholic condition and marry the alcoholic anyway...I am one of those. I use to think I could fix anything that was broken and my alcoholic/addict wife fit the bill to a tee.
Your alcoholic knows what he is doing...he is human, has thoughts and feeling and perceptions and plans and dreams...and a compulsion and allergy to alcohol. The last one the compulsion and allergy is what gets in the way of everything else. Right now I would say that the disease owns him and has locked you out of his life almost entirely. Best to learn compassion and empathy for this child of God...this human being because for me that is what helped me to be around my alcoholic/addict wife cause if I didn't I would believe that she was trying to hurt me intentionally which I did for a long while till I got into the rooms of Al-Anon. Your husband is actually powerless over whether he drinks or not and therefore whether he gets drunk or not and therefore how he will feel afterward and then when the cycle starts again. As the definition of alcoholism states...he has but three choices -sobriety, insanity or death. Would you agree that he and you both have reached the second level.
For me the best guidance and direction I got was to get into the face to face meetings of the Al-Anon Family Groups in my area and I see that you have found them already. Great Tuesday night then. Keep coming back here often. Stop calling yourself stupid. ((((hugs))))
I came to al anon full of resentment for having to follow a programme because I lived with an alcoholic
now I am full of gratitude for the people it has introduced into my life and all the new ways of thinking that it has opened up
I still live with my alcoholic partner who is on the merry go round of getting sober and relapsing. I may not always live with him or maybe I will. I don't know what the future holds
well done for getting this far and good luck with your onward journey x
Thank you Jerry. I appreciate your words. And YES definitely at the 2nd level, full-fledged.... not only a member, but the president of the insanity club. :)
I actually figured out (which is amazing for me) how to order books from a Kindle app on my ipad, so I bought the book today, and am almost finished with it. I will be buying the other volumes tomorrow. :) Can't seem to put it down, although there are some things in there that I don't deal with, such as having an AH that comes to me after wards crying and apologizing, most of it was like someone took a look at my life and wrote a book about it. Funny, I always wished he would have apologized and aknowledged that he hurt me, but now after reading it, I am almost glad and feel rather lucky that he never did, as I think that would have played more into the crazy-making. I would have hung on ever word he said, and become deeper into this sickness and my obvious CD.
I have still been silent, which is something new for me.... but as I am seeing is still allowing him to see that I am involved in his sickness, and not putting it back on him. Although, I have been angry, so maybe my silence was good for the time being. Tomorrow, I am going to simply tell him (again) that he is an A, and that I'm not ashamed of him, HOWEVER I will not tolerate his behavior, that him drinking or not, is his decision, but it is my decision on how I will or will not allow myself to be treated. So, we can start a process of counseling, or he can start a process of packing until he reaches that point. Finances of course are a concern, I just started my firm, and only have one client at the time. however, I will just tell him that he can pay my expenses until the point I can financially take care of things, after all.... its his sickness, not mine, right???? So, as of right now, that is my plan. I'm scared to death, but am just going to have to put on my game face, as I do in meetings. Its time, its past time for me to start loving me.
Keep me in your prayers.... please. :)
Jerry F wrote:
Aloha Apparently Bright or anything better than stupid...the best person available to help you feel better about yourself is yourself. Change your self perception. You know he's wrong when he calls you names and unloads on you...do verify him. Promise
Clue Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical...Your husband is altered and you don't get prenotice when the right one is in the room with you until you come to learn what we have come to learn. Each of them gets the same you...he doesn't get a less than you when he drinks and doesn't get a better than you when he doesn't. He is altered...mind, body, spirit and emotions. He is not what you expected and then you haven't learned as much as you need to know about alcoholism yet. One of the simple things that is said about alcoholism...which is a disease and not a moral issue...is that it is cunning, powerful and baffling so when it knocks you down and for a loop you got another demonstration of it. Another simple thing you need to know is that you didnh't Cause it....you cannot Control it....and you will not be able to Cure it. It is incureable...it can only be arrested by total abstinence. It is progressive meaning that if he continues to drink it will only get worse never better.
How did you get involved with an alcoholic? You liked him and thought him hansome and worthwhile...had he been drunk and abusive when you met you might not have and then there are many who will walk right past this alcoholic condition and marry the alcoholic anyway...I am one of those. I use to think I could fix anything that was broken and my alcoholic/addict wife fit the bill to a tee.
Your alcoholic knows what he is doing...he is human, has thoughts and feeling and perceptions and plans and dreams...and a compulsion and allergy to alcohol. The last one the compulsion and allergy is what gets in the way of everything else. Right now I would say that the disease owns him and has locked you out of his life almost entirely. Best to learn compassion and empathy for this child of God...this human being because for me that is what helped me to be around my alcoholic/addict wife cause if I didn't I would believe that she was trying to hurt me intentionally which I did for a long while till I got into the rooms of Al-Anon. Your husband is actually powerless over whether he drinks or not and therefore whether he gets drunk or not and therefore how he will feel afterward and then when the cycle starts again. As the definition of alcoholism states...he has but three choices -sobriety, insanity or death. Would you agree that he and you both have reached the second level.
For me the best guidance and direction I got was to get into the face to face meetings of the Al-Anon Family Groups in my area and I see that you have found them already. Great Tuesday night then. Keep coming back here often. Stop calling yourself stupid. ((((hugs))))
Thank you Ms S.... and well done for you as well. God doesn't give us anything we can't handle, you are showing that.... and I am learning that.
I think accepting for me that I just don't know what will be is hard. Of course we all didn't marry to not know what would be....as far as living our lives with them. One thing that hit me while I was reading that book, I might not know what the future holds for me and my husband..... but one thing I do know, is that as long as I am alive, I have to and will be living with myself. So, I might as well help me out....right???
Ms S wrote:
welcome apparentlywholesomeand wise woman
lots of good perspective already on this thread
I came to al anon full of resentment for having to follow a programme because I lived with an alcoholic
now I am full of gratitude for the people it has introduced into my life and all the new ways of thinking that it has opened up
I still live with my alcoholic partner who is on the merry go round of getting sober and relapsing. I may not always live with him or maybe I will. I don't know what the future holds
well done for getting this far and good luck with your onward journey x
I can't begin to tell you how helpful your post has been for me - like you, I am learning from all the replies from the wonderful folks hereabouts and your clarity about your own situation is helping me to evaluate my own. Thank you.
You asked some specific questions and I'll give you my experience -
I don't think that it helps if I bottle everything up - I tried that and it did not feel as though I was standing up for myself. It kind of just confirmed my victim status. So my new technique, which seems to be working better for both of us, is to try not to use the 'you' word. For example, instead of saying "you are not going to talk to me this way" I have started to turn it around and say "I will not tolerate being spoken to like that". Naturally when I did this the first few times it brought on a tornado of abuse and a denial that it was abusive behaviour. This was my cue to put on my coat and go out for a coffee - taking my phone with me so that I could call a few friends for a nice chat. It seems important for me that whatever I do it needs to be something that I want to do or can enjoy - otherwise I am just adding fuel to my own resentment. I don't think that abusive behaviour is good for either party - and it is a very loving thing to take oneself out of that equation. Unfortunately alcohol stops my husband from being able to deal with it himself.
Rule changing - arragh, constantly! But actually there is only one set of rules that I need, and yep, you guessed it, they are my own
In the same way that it takes two to be in an abusive relationship, it also takes two to be punished. So now when AH tries the silent treatment I let him, I assume that for whatever reason it is something he needs to do at that particular moment. I use the time to enjoy the peace and quiet, or take myself out to visit with friends. But I know it is not at all about me. I think it is the self pity / victim behaviour that he is falling into and then he lashes out at the unfairness of life. There is nothing that I can or need to figure out about it - it is, I think, the addict voice saying to my husband 'poor poor me, pour me another drink'. As you rightly say, it is probably just an excuse to go out and party. I think that on balance I would prefer to be in my shoes than his.
When I left home for a few months I just got on and did it. I did not announce it. After a couple of days I contacted AH to say that I loved him very much but that things needed to change. I told him that I did not like the person that I was becoming by living in an abusive alcoholic relationship and that I could not do it any more. That, for me was the key. I needed to like myself and I did not like the look for the person that I was becoming - living in fear of the next put down, always worrying about what I may or may not have done wrong, playing out negative conversations in my mind and not really knowing which way to turn. Where was the pride or self esteem in all of that? Like you, I became aware that for as long as I lived there would always be me and that was worth valuing.
I love the word 'Dignity' at the moment - I think that I picked it up from 'Getting Them Sober'. It helps me to keep my cool when things become too personal and defensive. It helps me to behave honestly and with integrity without letting my anger get the better of me. It helps me to honour the love that I have had for my husband and to realise that I can not fix everything.
Btw, another thing that helped me a lot is meditation. I am not very good at it, but taking a few minutes to just concentrate on my breathing helps me to deal with anxiety. And these days if I'm not sure about something, or if my angry voice is having a rant in my head I ask myself 'how am I with that?' It is amazing the difference it has made.
Once again, thanks for coming into this community. Good luck and warm hugs.
If I could, I'd simply give you a very safe hug and whisper in your ear... "change your nickname"... just because someone else said so, does not make it true or you.
We all have crazy-makers in our lives, and we all struggle with it. You are not alone. Welcome Home to MIP.
John
__________________
" And what did we gain? A new life, with purpose, meaning and constant progress, and all the contentment and fulfillment that comes from such growth."
Thank you Milk (if I can give you a nickname :) ). You have no idea how good it is to hear that out of my insanity, there is something that could be helping someone.
Oh, I wish I would have found you all many, many years ago. (Although, I don't think I realized my AH was TRULY an A, until the last year). Or even if I could have found you all then. But, I had no idea about groups to help the spouses, sure I knew about AA. I don't think I even realized how emotionally/physically taxing this was on the families. I didn't see that I too am sick. I knew I felt like a "shell" of myself, but didn't realize I had become just as sick as him. Which leads me to my new concern of my son. I FEEL I have done a pretty good job protecting him from the madness. But, as we all know, kids are pretty smart. I feel most of the time, much smarter than us adults. I know he has been effected. I know there were years where I was not the kind of mother I used to be, or could have been, because I was so caught up into what AH was doing, or my saddness or hurt. So, now I have to along with loving me, make sure I love him, and get to the bottom of what this has done to him. I noticed that there was a group for teens here, I think tomorrow when I go to my first meeting, I am going to check out if there is a meeting he can attend. I have never told him flat out that my AH is an A, I have said he has trouble drinking and that it effects his decision making skills. What are your thoughts on this? I guess I should start another thread and ask the question.
I think you are a very wise woman, Milk. I think not using the "you" is a fantastic idea, it really confirms the detaching yourself emotionally, doesn't it? I will have to make sure I really try and use this, its going to be hard at first. I will admit, I am not perfect. (I know you all thought I was, lol). I do have a sassy Irish temper, and not only from just being a woman but also my career, makes it where I am good at making someone they feel they are on the stand. On a regular basis I will catch myself setting my AH up to where I am forcing him to admit to something I know he has done, and something I know he will lie about.
YES ON THE RULES!!!! Funny how THAT I never noticed. I am a grown woman, I am in control of my own actions, so can I not be in control of whether or not I feel as though I am under someone elses rules???? Seems so simple, and something we should just all know as common sense, but yet, get caught up in the storm, and you find yourself matching to those rules. I think for so long I was convinced of how much of an awful W I was, that I would "hop-to" the rules laid down, in order to become the "good-wife" or to get his stamp of approval. Neither of which I didn't see that he would ever say I was. Rule changes happened when I did do what it was he said kept me from being the "good-wife", I would do what he asked and sit and wait like a Dog waiting for a treat from their master.... a treat that would never come, only thing to come was a rule change, of something else I wasn't doing or hadn't done correctly. And so funny (not really, but you know what I mean), that I would not tolerate this from anyone I worked with.... why did I here??? Something, somewhere changed in me, that I felt that I had to preform in order to be loved. Actually, now that I type this, I think I was programmed from childhood to be this way.... I grew up with a Narcasstic mother, who NEVER acknowledged anything positive about me.
Good for you for just doing it!! No words, just getting up and leaving. That is very brave, and something few people could do. That action, again, detached the emotions out of it. I think many times we say "I'm going to leave", in hopes they will pull their head out and say "NO!", "Please don't, I love you"..... Wouldn't that be a grand thing to have happen, but if something like that could happen in our M's, we probably wouldn't be on this board, because that would mean our relationships were not to one of an A, right??? So, I have to ask, what did your AH do when you did this???? Funny, another thing about me and a rule of thumb I live by in my "other world" (work, friends, mothering, etc)..... My word is my honor.... I strive always to keep my word, as I truly feel it is my bond and my honor. I must set a good example is how I feel. Also along with that is ACTIONS NOT WORDS. Both of these are pretty much my motto's, and it has taken me far in my career and both my personal relationships. People know that when I say something, I mean it and I will back it up with my actions. BUT, here we go again.... not the case with my AH.
Sorry for the rambling, but as I type I see so many ways I have changed and conformed and bent.... and it really makes me sick. DIGNITY!!! AWESOME WORD!!! I need to post that word everywhere I look.
I wanted to share with you a few of my fav quotes, (interesting you used the word Dignity).... my all time fav: "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Seuss
2nd and 3rd fav quotes: The most courageous act is still to think for yourself. Aloud. ~Coco Chanel / "Dignity does not consist in possessing honors, but in the consciousness that we deserve them. ~Aristotle
Thank you John..... one word to your sweet whisper.... DONE!! :)
I read yesterday many of your posts and background. I was instantly drawn to your warmth and your compassion. You are not a ghost! And your precious little girl, see's you as anything other than a ghost, she see's her daddy as a WARRIOR!!!!
John wrote:
If I could, I'd simply give you a very safe hug and whisper in your ear... "change your nickname"... just because someone else said so, does not make it true or you.
We all have crazy-makers in our lives, and we all struggle with it. You are not alone. Welcome Home to MIP.
Thank you for those quotes, the Coco Chanel one is new to me and I really really like it. Dr Seuss has always been a guru.
AH's reaction when I left -
On the first evening various abusive emails about dividing up property, how was I going to take responsibility for our dogs and cats and asking for my lawyers contact details. The following evening I received a text saying that he wished that he could have told me how much he valued me and that he was not really this ghastly monster. After a week he got in touch with a counsellor and stopped drinking. He has drunk since but not to the same levels as before.
Re the good wife thing - oh boy, have I done that! There is some good in it, in the sense that I think that I do some good things work wise and in my private life as a result, but it is not worth suffering for or wearing myself out over it, and that is the balance that I am trying to learn now. AH is currently feeling rather sorry for himself because 'I used to do things for him but don't any more.' So I figure that I must be doing something right. It does feel strange sometimes, and I guess that is just a throw back to old habits. Your description of sitting like a dog waiting for a treat is spot on - it will be a useful visual to keep in mind for the future.
I do not have children but I am sure that you will find lots of experience from others here on the board as well as at Alanon. Probably worth a new post.
Good for you (again) on standing up for your self. What is the line Zig Ziglar uses...something like you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great... or something like that. You have started your path for your great life. Change is hard, even at the smallest levels, but I think the harder the change, the better the results and the bigger the reward. More risk, more reward, you know. So I know this is hard for you right now, but I feel that God has something for you that is huge just around the corner.
Aw, I'm sorry your AH is feeling sorry for himself....NOT. :) That is a good sign, and yes I know its hard for you, because something in us feels important when we take care of ppl. Stand your ground. You can do this.... its only the rest of your life and your happiness that is on the table. GULP! :)
Glad the visual helps... I am the same way, I think that is why I always use descriptions like that. I have been visualizing myself literally as a dog for the last two weeks when he acts out, and I will tell you, there is nothing better than seeing yourself on the level of animal, that will get you to pull your head out.
Apparently,
Welcome and thanks for this incredibly helpful thread. I continue to be amazed at all the love, encouragement and wisdom on this board. Before I came here, I felt so alone. Not anymore, now I read about situations just like mine, and realize that theres a whole world of folks out there who understand. Enjoy your meeting, and please keep sharing. We all need this!
