The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I know that some of us do tend to go for troubled partners, needy partners, damaged partners, and the like. Since you don't really even know this man, this might not be the case here. The fact is that there are a lot of addicts. A lot. I imagine most people who've dated more than one or two people have crossed paths with some addicts along the way.
To my mind, the difference between the regular people and us -- the codies, the people who get involved with addicts -- is the decision we make when the addicts' addiction becomes clear. Sometimes addiction is so familiar that we don't even recognize it. "He drinks a lot but everyone in my family did, so I guess that's just what people do." Some of us didn't grow up with addicts, but we grew up with dysfunction, so that seems familiar. "He blows hot and cold, and sometimes he treats me painfully, but sometimes he's really nice -- but everyone in my family did that, so I guess that's just what people do." So we stay. And sometimes we're just so fearful that no one will love us and that no one better will come along that we grab hold no matter what we're feeling. "This seems painful but not as painful as being alone forever, so I'll grab on. Besides, I bet I can make him treat me really well. I bet I can."
But the healthy people -- when they realize they're dealing with an addict or a dysfunctional person, they walk away. They don't stay around a little longer just to make sure, or try to change him, or tell themselves it's not so bad. They move on to the next person, or to the next good thing in life. They have a sense of abundance, and they don't tell themselves things like 'It's your last chance!" or "No one better will come along so I better go for it."
There are a lot of people in recovery who will stay recovered, and I would never want to say that those people shouldn't have relationships. But here's what I worry about, for people like us. I did know someone who relapsed -- badly, horribly -- after fifteen years sober. It doesn't never happen. And what happens if he does is that people like us tend to get sucked in and frantically practice all our co-dependent behaviors. It's like if a non-alcoholic accidentally drank some beer when they weren't meaning to, they'd just put the beer down and move on. But if an alcoholic did, they could blow all their recovery in that moment. They have to be very, very careful not to put themselves in a situation where there are triggers. And being with someone who might relapse could put us in that situation. Our first priority is our own well-being. And we have to remember the difference between regular people and co-dependents. When the co-dependent finds that they're dealing with an addict, they don't move on. That seems like something important to think about now that you know you're dealing with an addict.
-- Edited by Mattie on Sunday 3rd of March 2013 04:44:54 PM
Thanks so much Mattie. El-Cee, 1976love, and PinkChip for taking the time to respond - I really appreciate it.
So you do think this is just a law of numbers and not radar per se? I know my issues don't stem from being alone, or thinking he's the only chance I have, I do not need any one to look after me, but I do have intimacy, self-esteem, worthiness, and abandonment issues.
Is it possible to be only a codie with your significant other and in no other parts of your life (like friends/family/business)? I know I am not co-dependent in my friendships, my family or my business life. My closest friend says she thinks that, with the men I choose, I like the story, I find it interesting especially if our lives are so different which I agree with (I am an ex-journalist). I don't think I try to change people (boyfriends)- I do accept them for who they are, I do pick up the slack and try to help them in their lives but not on an emotional level, I do have some control issues and I do feel like Im the normal with them. However, most of the men I date/have lasting relationships with do not tell me about their addiction they have secret lives.
My last BF was rock bottom for me. Is this co-dependent? An old high school friend, had me hook, line, and sinker after pouring out his heart about how his addiction ruined his life, he had a suicide attempt (he said he was clean but wasnt), how the SWAT team busted him and was curious about his whole lifestyle. I didnt think it was cool at all - quite the contrary - but I thought it was culturally interesting. (I just recently discovered I only date addicts) He used/manipulated me and then was done with me and moved on to a 24 year old with a similar lifestyle as his (he is 42). I did think, erroneously/subconciously, if he knew someone (not just me) loved him that his self-esteem would be better - but that HE would pull up his own socks. However, when he told me he loved me I must have looked horrified and picked a fight and broke up with him and got back together the next day, tail between my legs. That pushed him away. I never once snooped, asked him if he was still using (even though I suspected), told him to go to NA or anything like that. I did change my routine to accommodate his hermit lifestyle, I did absorb his emotions, I did drag him out sometimes out of his comfort zone, I did drop off food when he needed "alone" weekends, buy him things he needed or drive him to run errands (he didnt have a car). There were red flags everywhere that I didnt see and when it was over I was in sheer, crazy, obsessive, panic mode I did try and control the situation. With every failed relationship I panic worse now - and I did stay far too long in my long term relationships years ago - I am the one that always left.
So is this codie behavior or abandonment/intimacy issues - or is that part of it? My friends all warned me in the beginning and I thought I knew better (to your point about healthy vs. dysfunctional - I know I am dysfunctional). I guess I'm wondering if I belong at Al-Anon? I know I have a lot to work on but do I fit the profile?
I can say that I decided to take some time to fix me and the ulterior motive is avoidance which is likely counter-intuitive to fixing my intimacy issues? I have made big changes in my lifestyle and my thought patterns and I'll be completely honest the thought of getting close to anyone now terrifies me now more than ever. One of my changes is hanging out with people who I do not have to be intimate with - no investment.
So you're all agreeing that I need to stay away from my triggers until I get well?
PinkChip, you look great and should be very proud. Are you saying that I could be ok dating Mr. Crush if he has also done the work, like you? Have you dated people like me when you were in your addiction or in recovery? If so, what was the attraction? Do you consciously stay away from co-dependent people now? Or, do you get involved and then realize they are a pattern? Id love to hear your POV?
Thanks again and I hope I dont sound like a whiner? Im just trying to figure out why I am only attracted to/in relationships with addicts and also figure out how I can get well (despite three years of therapy and anti-depressants).
-- Edited by Grumble on Sunday 3rd of March 2013 08:41:03 PM
-- Edited by Grumble on Sunday 3rd of March 2013 08:49:58 PM
I attended my first meeting last week, so please bare with me as I'm new and I'm confused.
Background: my family are not addicts, but I am only attracted to, date, live, love addicts. Most of the time I have no idea they are addicts. They are all so different, I don't have a type, I live alone, I'm single (willingly) and make a six figure salary - so it's not the circles I keep. I rarely drink, I'm anti-drug and I love living alone. So, my therapist told me to go to a meeting so I went. While I liked the group I was on the fence about returning to a second meeting, until this weird thing happened two days later...
I go to this place to practice a new sport. I am determined to work out my relationship issues this year (I'm in my 40s) so I am not dating this year, but I had/have a crush on one of the men there. I never wanted to speak to him, I have never been closer than 20 feet away from him and I am avoiding him. I have no idea if he has even noticed me. I was talking to one of the girls there and she told me his name (I didn't want to know), his profession and other details and I said it doesn't matter I'm not dating this year...then she said, "oh and he's a recovering alcholic that's been sober for 15 years..." so out of ALL of the men in this place I seem to crush on another addict. It made me very angry...what is wrong with me...
Here is what I knew about him before my friend said anything:
he is good at the sport
he shows people how to do the sport
he is there every time I am (2-3 times a week)
he wears tshirts and jeans
I think he's handsome but none of my friends do
He seems unassuming, seems confident but not a jerk, approachable and kind (from my 20 ft view)
So nothing. I have never seen him up close, never talked to him, that was the first time I had said anything about him....how does this happen? Has anyone had this happen? Do we sniff them out? Addict Radar? What is the science? There is no way this is a coincidence, right? I find this very disturbing...if I can sniff them out from 20 feet how am I ever going to change?
Any help here would be appreciated...
P.S. For the record, even now I know I'm still attracted (possibly more - gah) but still staying away from men this year (avoidance). But, if he's been sober for 15 years and worked/working a program is he still off limits? Honesty, without candy coating is appreciated here. And yes I will be going back to the group - this is clearly a sign.
Oh good, that makes sense to me. One of my exes of 5 years is a recovering sex addict. He has white knuckled for four years. He did go to a 12 step program but never worked the steps. He wasn't working the steps or on our relationship so after a year of trying to work it out, I took the dog and left. Five years later he is a very different person now. He is in a healthy relationship with a great person, he has not acted out, he is out of debt, got a promotion at work, is a much better father and has his s**t together. He is strong and calm now (and I'm the mess lol). Despite not working the steps, he is worthy of dating now. I am glad you said not all are damaged goods. I see Mr Crush with his 15 years of sobriety helping others and wondered if he was put in my path as a test or perhaps as someone to be friends with while I go through my own recovery. I didn't mean to infer or lump everyone in the same boat and to be honest that is one part of the bare root of my question...do I run and not go back to the sport or do I look at people on a case by case. I'm just lost - there's conflicting research/opinions and I am grateful for your insight from both sides of the proverbial coin.
HannahRose74, thank you for sharing your story. I was always taught that you stay and work on your relationship. I still think that's true, but I think we need boundaries and set timelines. With the my ex in this post, I struggled with guilt about leaving him when he was vulnerable and I went to a therapist to discuss (I still loved the man I knew and hated little porn man) and she was the one that asked if he was working the program, if I had explained my boundaries and my needs and if he was working on our relationship...I had explained and explained (they weren't much) and he did nothing. So I literally gave myself permission to leave because I was not doing either of us any favors by staying. He didn't want to put in the work and I couldn't live like that. He struggled for awhile and then it clicked for him. I'd like to point out that I've only been to one meeting - like the adage never take relationship advice from the single person ;)
Tortuga - does intuition count as red flags? How do you know it's not paranoia? Do you also have the radar with friends or just romantic interests? I am exactly the same way...I'm loving my single life right now but when I get into a relationship I'm good until I decide to really let them in a bit and then they bail. I think they are attracted to the cold, non-intimate, confident me, they are takers/manipulators or they have their own "abandonment-issue radar" for me after a while. Either that or they don't like my dog ;) That's it - it's the dog.
-- Edited by Grumble on Monday 4th of March 2013 12:27:35 AM
Aloha Grumble and thanks for the post...relationships. I believe that you will understand more after more meetings...give yourself that so that you can "come to understand". I'm sure that you know that alcoholism and drug addiction is a universal problem and is probably the biggest, deadliest disease known to man. It predates the life of the Christ by thousands of year and so, I believe, were pretty much an altered species. Why was I attracted to alcoholics and addicts? I was born and raised in the disease and on top of that I am primarily a kind and caring and helpful human being who was also raised in a culture of Aloha...Aloha is a principle without defenses...you keep giving even when it hurts. The program is now firmly attached into my 3rd marriage. What is different this time and after two other marriages and many other relationships? Me. I've never had a perfect partner and don't have that expectation anymore. As I was taught from within our literature..."I take the bitter with the better" and "acceptance is he solution to all my problems."
Is there such a thing as Addict Radar? sure...you seemed to have an innate sense for finding them...So what do you do now?
Go to another meeting and don't do anything compulsive...be nice, say hello, share some ESH and don't drag one home. Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))
Oh and psssst!! The very best relationship you can get into is a vertical one and then all the hoziontal ones go so much better.
-- Edited by Jerry F on Monday 4th of March 2013 12:17:15 AM
Well said Mattie. I think when we are no longer in denial and can look at ourselves honestly we have a responsibility to ourselves to not play with our recovery. I was asked out by a guy recently who said he is a recovering addict and that sent alarm bells for me not because of him but because I can't trust myself not to begin the same old behaviours. Also he said he attends meetings occasionally and that was enough for me to run from that situation. Maybe one day I will be secure in my recovery but I will not play with fire again if possible.x
People with lots of recovery in them ARE attractive, confident, and spiritually sound. Many more people are attracted to me now that I am in AA. Of course it doesn't hurt that I stopped drinking, smoking, lost a ton of weight,work out regularly, have a better job, and much higher self-esteem.
But the healthy people -- when they realize they're dealing with an addict or a dysfunctional person, they walk away. They don't stay around a little longer just to make sure, or try to change him, or tell themselves it's not so bad. They move on to the next person, or to the next good thing in life. They have a sense of abundance, and they don't tell themselves things like 'It's your last chance!" or "No one better will come along so I better go for it."
-- Edited by Mattie on Sunday 3rd of March 2013 04:44:54 PM
I love what Mattie just said here. And it speaks VOLUMES for me. Healthy people would just walk away. Every person I have dated and even the AH I am currently married too, I have had sparks of..Oh wow, thats really messed up, but it's not that bad...it won't affect me, he really didn't mean it...if I was a healthy stable individual, I should have said this " I LOVE myself to much to be compromised and will continue on my path." As for you being attracted to a person with addict problems...not sure, but if and when you do meet them and the little light bulbs go off, say..I'm to healthy for this! Peace and Love.
"This seems painful, but not as painful as being alone" is so true. When dysfunction starts to show in a relationship, it's so easy to make excuses not to leave. And it can be very painful to be alone. This post was timely for me and was what I needed to hear.
My marriage to my alcoholic was rough. After many years, I got up the courage to leave. And why, after all I went through, would I want to be back in any relationship that isn't healthy, where I feel totally loved, accepted, and valued?
Even though my current relationship is nothing like my marriage was, I can notice that I'm starting to accept behavior that I would never have tolerated at the beginning of the relationship.
It seems so true that a healthy individual would just walk away at the first signs of disfunction, instead of trying to figure out why the person is acting that way, or choosing behaviors to appease the other person. Instead of trying to go along so as to not make waves.
Why is is that we choose to settle for less? And when we settle for less, it lets the other person know that they just don't have to expend much effort to be in the relationship. Are we self sabotaging in this way? Where we deep down don't think we deserve much, so we teach others that we don't deserve their time or attention?
My thought is that codie issues are abandonment issues. They're the same thing. "Appeasement" is a good description for that mode we get into where we just want them to stay with us and like us.
You asked, "So you're all agreeing that I need to stay away from my triggers until I get well?" As I understand it, like alcoholics and other addicts, we can be in recovery, but we're never "cured." It's never safe for alcoholics to go back in the bar and order a beer. I don't think it's ever safe for me to get together with an addict, however long his recovery. My codependent tendencies are bad enough even with someone who has no addictions! But if I have a partner who plunges into a destructive addiction, I'm toast. The chances of my going down into the death spiral with him are enormous. The risk is too great. Maybe he'll be sober and clean the rest of his life. But I just can't risk any more of that chaos in mine. Even though there are thousands of addicts, there are thousands of men who aren't addicts. I need to exercise my determination to pass up all the addicts every time I meet a man. It's all too easy to make excuses to myself about why this red-flagged guy and that red-flagged guy are "probably actually safe." I am a past master at making excuses for choosing risky people. My judgment is distorted. Every time I just say no to addicts I'm dodging a bullet. My next challenge: to start noticing all the guys who don't have red flags.
So you are staying clear of all potential partners now? What really confuses me (and I will work the program so sorry if I'm jumping ahead) is if I am only attracted to addicts does that mean I should only date people I am not attracted to? Or will I desire other people if I get well? Even my own question sounds ridiculous...lol.
Thanks for this post. 'My codependent tendencies are bad enough even with someone who has no addictions!' what Mattie says hits it completely. Me, I'm a complete disaster, attracted by people 'in need'....whatever that is, it is generally an image of 'they can't take care of themselves, let me help them a little, they shouldn't go through this alone'...and I do marvelous work sometimes, so marvelous that the person i able to standup, all fresh, put together,and walk away....and leave me alone in the dirt, where we sat so comfortable together. and then I'm complaining: 'why do people always leave me, or treat me like crap?' well go figure. It has been MY choice to begin with, MY responsibility to step in this kind of situation, with these kind of people...I HAVE THE RADAR, in this case. I fall for weak people...or lets call it problematic...because I identify with them, because some trigger my helper instinct, some trigger my familiar feeling of being abandoned...etc etc etc. I just found out recently....and it was hurtful. But life is only over when it's over, so past is past. and in the future, I will have to put MUCH MORE effort to avoid the red flags, and go for the healthy stuff. Nothing changes if nothing changes. I am a bit insane, for sure, but awareness is there, and I can work actively on my recovery. and fight the fear of abandonment, because it is always there somewhere. I am actually most of the time happy when I'm single, very balanced and very curious and alive. Put me in a relationship, with a guy of my choice (the co-dependent choice), and I'm at a complete loss, loose focus, put him on a pedestal, and after a while you will find an empty shell of somebody who gave it all... but who has gone un-noticed. enjoy your awareness...and go steady in recovery. my wish for all of us. great post!
Grumble, my main point is that an alcoholic with 15 years recovery is worlds away from an active drunk/adict. One day I aspire to have 15 years sobriety. Heck...I look up to it. Currently, I am in a long term relationship with a nonalcoholic. I tried dating other people in AA, but we had the same issues...too similar I guess. I dunno... I didn't date many of them before settling down with my current partner. I do think some folks with long term sobriety are worthy of dating. They are not all damaged goods. We all have issues and I wouldn't lump a person with solid recovery in the same boat with an active addict or a person that doesn't even acknowledge their disease.
I do have a history of dating other alcoholics prior to AA...That is who I refer to as my qualifier...A seven year relationship with someone that was just as big a drunk as me. That was horrid...a double trainwreck. I don't identify about being attracted to addicts...I don't see as many similarities between a sober alcoholic and a wet one. You seem to believe they are largely the same. Perhaps I just want to believe I'm more different than I am now that I am sober. LOL.
Speaking only for myself, I know I've always had this tendency in the back of my mind to think that I'm going to be the best thing that ever happened to this man. I'll show him he can finally trust again, or I'll show him that he can be loved and supported when no one else ever did.
I convince myself over and over that I'm supposed to be this huge miracle-worker that makes a difference in these people's lives. Most especially in intimate relationships, but I catch myself doing the people-pleasing / impressing stuff with co-workers and friends, as well. And if you don't like me or think I'm great? Ooooh. Challenge accepted! By god, I'll show you just how freaking fantastic I am!
I don't know if you can relate to that or not. I used to be pretty dang fearful of being an addict-magnet myself. Every person I've dated and/or been married to in the past has either had a drug and or alcohol abuse problem. There's something comfortable and familiar about them that I cannot put my finger on.
I'm just now exploring a relationship with a new guy who apparently does not have a drug or alcohol problem (I'm still a little iffy on the alcohol thing. He's never drank around me and tells me how he usually goes as the designated driver for his friends, etc.), but he did grow up with an alcoholic parent. What's completely alien to me in this whole relationship is that he's someone who actually wants to be emotionally available.
Now, that's like the jackpot for someone who's had a tendency to date emotionally unavailable men in the past. I'm even close friends with another guy who I can tell is totally emotionally unavailable, and this guy doesn't drink or drug, either. But to actually be with someone who wants to be emotionally available? Holy cow that's confusing and alien territory for me. I hate saying it, but I'm used to neglect. I'm comfortable in that area. Now someone wants to shower me with attention and I'm like "WOAH!! What is WRONG with this guy?" I think it's pretty funny I feel that way when all I ever wanted from all my other relationships was to be with someone who was capable of being emotionally available.
Pink - your before and after (or rather during, haha) AA pics are fantastic. I could post similar photos myself, before and after/during Al-Anon. Actually, my health and esteem really skyrocketed after my divorce and removing myself from a toxic relationship - but I definitely have Al-Anon to thank for that.
Thanks for the kind welcomes :) I love the vertical vs the horizontal line and I'm with you on that one and the what is different. It is inspiring. I need to dor this - I'm tired of feeling crazy, out of control and I'm ready to make changes. It will be hard, but I can do this. I remember someone asked me long ago if I liked my roller coaster life or if I'd prefer an even-keeled one. I liked the coaster but now I am so very tired and I look around at people who have families and love in their life and I look at mine and my bad choices and while I have a great career, great salary - I 'm alone. I don't need someone in my life but I'd like one. The right one and I have to deal with my issues first so I can say, "you know what's different about this relationship?" too.
Aloha, I think we are kindred spirits...I sooo get all of that especially the Woah line...
I look forward to getting to know you all better and thank you all for the welcome, the sharing, answering all of my questions with insight and compassion. You all rock :) TY
