The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
This is my issue for sure. Everytime I read about how abusive, arrogant, and jerky some of your qualifiers act, I get mad. I can preach detachment and all that, but I don't really walk in your shoes at this moment. When I walked away from my alcoholic ex, it was because I was also a drunk and I was rejecting the whole lifestyle, I thought I was going to die, and I had absolutely nothing left on the inside to give to myself or anyone else.
Getting sober was not easy, but it was not rocket science either. It's funny to read when some of you say that your partners view people that go to AA or need AA as being weak. I view alcoholics that are scared of or resistant to AA as being weak. I need to tailor that a bit. They are sick, but not weak.
I do have to say that a lot of what I get from this board is a reminder. It hurts to hear many of you getting blamed for things that are not your fault, getting unsolicited verbal (and sometimes even physical abuse), being embarrassed and constantly let down by your qualifiers. BUT - hearing that keeps it real for me. That is who I was and I never want to be that person again.
This is just me, but if I ever relapsed, I would want my current partner to leave me PRONTO. I also recognize that is different than what I would have said in my active drinking. I thought my partner then was the problem also. We did a good bit of arguing, whining and blaming everyone and everything else for our alcoholism. He still does that (on the occassions I have talked to him).
So...I know I have some ESH that is good but I also know it's heavily tainted towards the alcoholic and getting them to just suck it up (as if we had power over that). I'm not objective when reading about and hearing about how awful and childish active drunks act. That turns my stomach, I make suggestions that are too emphatic about not tolerating it because that is exactly what I used to be and it makes me sick. I do benefit from participating and reading it though. Thanks guys for being patient with me. I suspect I'll mellow out over time. Not to cross talk but Jerry is very gentle and not phased and a good ideal for me as a double winner. Right now I'm "Mr. AA with 4 years sobriety." Don't think I don't realize that also makes me preachy. It just is. I'm not bashing myself either. Glad to have a home here. Just felt the need to get honest and participate about where I am coming from.
I am glad you are here and offer a view from the other Side. It is important for us all to learn to keep an open mind and evaluate all we hear and see.
There is a good readings in Courage to Change about this topic. Can I remember where at the moment? no.
It can be so disheartening to read about the struggles and challenges. The reading that I reference says to do what you are, and use it as a learning opportunity and a way to reflect and search yourself for a moment.
It's not easy living with the active disease. It requires boundaries, knowing yourself, putting the work into your program, and be willing to take things one day at a time. Something that is said often in my f2f meeting is that we are fixers. We like to make it all better. We've learned we have to fix us, and take care of us in order to move forward.
Sometimes when a qualifier is a spouse or SO it requires walking away because that is the next right choice to make.
There are several parents in my f2f meetings, for them it's not as easy as just walking away. It's interesting to gain that perspective as well.
I did live though being in a relationship with another alcoholic for 7 years. That was God awful at the end too. I forget to respond from that ESH and I just roll with the AA stuff. I just walked away and thought about it for a while.
What was it really like to not just be an active alcoholic but to also live with one 4 and a half years ago?....
It was a total nightmare. I honestly did believe his bullcrap about me being incapable of making it on my own. I honestly did believe we both drank because the world was such a crappy, awful, and unfair place. I honestly did believe he drank because his father abandoned him and he never got to go to college and couldn't catch a break and get the 6 figure job he deserved so much. I honestly believed that I drank because I had so many problems with depression and anxiety and having to drop out of grad school right before getting my Ph.D in clinical psych. We both believed we got crapped on by life and we both drank til we got sicker and sicker and sicker. There were screaming fights and in the end, there were screaming fights where we were throwing things. There was craziness and crying and in the end, I was visiting him on the psych ward. There was recklessness and bad choices and in the end, we wrecked 3 cars and totaled them within a 1 month period. Red flags were there from the start. On our first date he asked "Are you an alcoholic because that is all I ever seem to attract." I didn't know I was an alcoholic then. I just knew we both drank and it was fun at first. I didn't pay attention to his owing 70k in back taxes, having creditors calling all hours of the day. Later on when our utilities got cut off and he was raiding my bank account and forging checks in my name, that didn't seem like that big a deal either. What was I thinking???! It got so bad that I actually drank more than he did because I didn't want to face the reality of how bad my choices had been and how bad life was becoming.
That part of my life was so awful. I have a hard time still sorting out how much of the screwiness was my alcoholism and how much of the "crazymaking" was living in what was an all around alcoholic fueled environment.
I've said some of this before, but I did want to add that it's not like I don't have any qualifier at all and that I didn't live through some of the stuff described here. I did. I'm guessing I just don't remember it the way a lot of folks here do. Either me or my partner could have walked into Alanon or AA in either order. As it turned out, I came to AA. My ex has a new addict partner that he keeps calling me and telling me how the addict has stolen from him, sold his stuff...how he is breaking up with him and then they are back together next time I talk to him.
I honestly believe he dates alcoholics and addicts because he wants them to be too sick to leave him. I do believe there was some unspoken pressure for me to develop into a worse alcoholic in that relationship. I know it's not his fault and it was me that had the tendencies and the genetics to really flip that switch as bad as it got during the 7 years we were together. I think he also keeps sick folks around him so that he doesn't have to change and look at himself. I feel bad for him. It's not my job to really take his inventory, but that's the best I can come up with now looking back on what happened and how.
I hear you and can so identify I agree the alanon side is just as crazy as the alcohoic. i lived in n denial and pretend for a very long time and pretended all is well. I know when i came into alanon I had to be very careful with the slogan "How important is it" because by the time I walked in "nothing was important" and everything was OK"
Fake it until you make it" was anotherslogan I could not use. I had been faking it all my life I had to learn to be honest , get real and say what I mean and mean what i say without being mean.
Although I have been in alanon for many.many years, I can still easily identify with the early painful days and be grateufl for this program.
I always like what you say to everyone even though I sometimes can identify it as being from the AA side of the coin.... and that is okay. We all have a right to our own point of view and to be respected for that.
Why don't people just walk away from their qualifiers? There are a lot of different ways to walk away. Physically is not the only way. If there is no physical abuse and no chance of getting to that point, then walking away emotionally can work. It did in my life. I only get blindsided by his issues when I am not working MY program. When I get angry and sarcastic and expecting he is going to be normal. I know what normal is. The first 20 years of my life I had "normal". I know now that he needs his secrets and it is not my place to shed light on them because I think it will be easier for me. I have to stay emotionally detached from his life and keep saying to my HP "bless them, change me". I have to work my program to keep changed and not get sucked into the crazys.
Betty, I also gasped when I read from you, "I know when i came into alanon I had to be very careful with the slogan "How important is it" because by the time I walked in "nothing was important" and everything was OK". Oh WOW. I didn't realize before that I was that person too. I had no program and I did backbends to accomodate the crazys and make the homelife look like the white picket fence.
I must say you have been one of the people who have made me stop and question myself, my thoughts and motives. I needed this from someone. There have been times when after questioning myself I KNEW the thoughts/decisions/actions I was doing or getting ready to do where absolutely the right thing and it re-affirmed that. Other times, by stopping and questioning myself I have found that I was not being true to myself and my motives were not true.
In both cases, it has put me back in a better frame of mind. I have even gone back and read some of your posts and messages at times. Thanks for your words and support. It has made me realize that while my wife's drinking is something that is part of the stress in my life, there are other things not associated with alcohol that I can work on and life is not quite as bad as I have envisioned at times.
I've been wanting to let you know how much I appreciate your insight and candor. This seems like the right time to thank you. It's so helpful for me to hear from someone who has lived on the "other side of the fence," so to speak. Having insight as to how alcoholics view matters/issues has really helped me to better understanding of this horrific disease. I like to think of you as a sort of translator for those of us haven't lived in the "land of Alcoholism." And I like how you are often very frank (sometimes with a "tough love" angle) with your experience. Sometimes we loved ones of the alcoholics have to get a better grip on reality without it being sugar coated. So again, thank you, and keep doing what you do best. I think that I can say with confidence that your unique (and Jerry's too) ESH is greatly appreciated by many.
-- Edited by Green Eyes on Friday 28th of December 2012 09:02:01 PM
PC, since you are not emotionally involved with the problem qualifier you seem to have a more objective/impartial opinion of the situation. You tell it like it is, you're not rude, but candid. Most of our loved ones won't say what they really think because a lot of times the truth hurts. So I just go online and see what my supporters think...! I admire a person who can call a spade a spade or a duck and know they are coming from a place of honesty. I think some people who hear the truth are hurt because they are not ready for it and probably are still in denial...but most people on this site are looking for good Alanon and AA experience and will suck it up to the truth. Besides what are we going to do anyway "throw something at you".....!
I think we all remember to walk in the persons shoes first before giving any ES or wisdom...
In support of truth, ducks, spades...Oldergal
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Don't Worry About Growing Old, It Is A Privilege For Some Of Us.....
I always love your ESH and have to remind you to dettach, haha! No really I am so glad you are here for us and tell us the other side of it after recovery it helps me lots.
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
I haven't been part of the MIP family for very long, but every time you post something I am sure to read it. I value your incite on the ongoings of the recovery process. I do not see any of your advice or comments as too harsh. You obviously don't know it but you are a giant part of my recovery. Thank you for being here.
I like your shares and I feel your pain. I'm angry at my qualifier too. Right now because once again he's used my kids as his verbal punching bag and blamed everyone else for it. So I too have a hard time detaching and SOME times we can't. I finally stopped detaching long enough to tell him "take a hike, I won't allow you to abuse the kids any further".
So I believe there is no "perfect" Al Anon way to behave. If there is, it's fake. People are who the are and we all react differently and we are all learning tools. But the last thing I would trust is a bunch of robot people who respond to such painful things as alcoholism and abuse exactly the same. I have learned a lot of detachment, I have a lot more to learn and I've learned that there are times we don't detach.
As always, I'm grateful for all that Mark shares. I need to hear different perspectives from time to time so that I can formulate my own opinions of things and I truly find his input invaluable. And, yes, I get angry at many of the qualifiers I hear about including my own. Sometimes it's anger that motivates me to use my HP more than ever and other times it's not constructive anger but it's anger that drags me down into the pits again. But, since this is my journey, it's also my choice as to how to respond and deal with triggers, whether they be mine or someone else's. Thanks Mark for your openness and honesty!
Hugs pink!! Always value and love what you have to share!! Every one needs a kick in the pants from time to time, and that is ok. I heard a share where the woman said her sponsor had listened to her him him him him story and when she paused to take a breath said no wonder he drinks!!!! It was shocking enough to the lady speaking the him's she started thinking hmmm maybe I need to start really working my own program. I don't recommend anyone saying that to a new person lol everyone needs a jolt of reality from time to time even if it is truly shocking!! :) big hugs p :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Dec 28th - 2012. The day I'll never forget. The day I came to AA. The day I said out loud in front of others about who and what I am.
I appreciate this post. I'm sorry for digging at you - it does sting - that's no excuse. We've lived with alcoholics, and become alcoholics ourselves... what's new. It's just one of a million addictions, and we're no better or worse. We are right sized here or there if we're working the steps here or there.
I had to come back here to say sorry here.
I'm sorry.
I had to figure out why this group makes me so mad, sad and at home as well.
I understand what you mean. When I first started coming here it scared me. I had to be in just the right mind set or I found it too upsetting to read everyone else's stories. I am doing better with that because I think I'm learning to accept the reality of things. I feel very lucky that unlike so many people here my husband's drinking binges are few and far between. He also does not get abusive. This sometimes makes me feel like I might not belong here as I have seen several others express the past few days. I just keep reminding myself that his drinking does effect me and that is why the stories I read here can sometimes be so scary for me. I am slowly feeling less scared and more educated. Your comments always seem to strike a chord with me and you have said some things that have really helped me with all of this very much. Thank you!
. It is important for us all to learn to keep an open mind and evaluate all we hear and see.