Do I ask or let it go? - Al-Anon Family Group

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

Do I ask or let it go?

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

back story.. A lost job in June 2010. Asked him to leave in Oct. We divorced in March 2012.

He asked for $500 a week in alimony -- in anticipation that he would have to pay child support...and in hopes that the judge would award it to even out him having to pay child support. this is 2/3 of my entire income. I pay for everything...all the kids stuff, house payment, car payment etc. I agreed to no child support until he was employed.

he has been living with his sister for 2 years and has not worked. He is living on the retirement money that he got half of in the divorce, though it is gone now. (50K!)

I work all the time...today I leave the house at 8, after my 10 yo gets on the bus, and then work until 9:30 tonight. working extra to make ends meet. I'm exhausted...but we do have a roof over our heads and the bills are paid.

Do I even bring up to him that it is a reasonable expectation for him to support his kids financially? even $50/ week? do I ask him if he has plans for EVER paying child support? Or do I just let it go...If he paid child support I would have more time to help the kids with their homework, cook healthy meals etc..now I just RUN from one thing to the next.

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

What is your expectation out of asking him? You can certainly ask anything you want. It's just I know I'm dealing with someone who has a very inflated sense of entitlement his children and what it costs to raise kids is completely skewd. So when I bring up things like the ortho or the back to school costs, his response is he already pays me and why should he have to participate. He doesn't understand that it's above and beyond. It doesn't matter that I do 98% of the work with the kids, .. he doesn't get childcare, he doesn't get medical, he doesn't get the once a year back to school expenses, he doesn't get any of it. He only sees that he's been wronged by me (even though it's the courts who set the amount, it's HIS money).

How long do you have to pay alimony? At what point can you get it reduced? I think that's what I would be asking myself as well as my atty. 500 per week is stiff and you are raising the kids. I am so sorry you are having to go through this situation it has to be so extremely frustrating.

Hugs P :)

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

Pushka --

I didn't end up having to pay alimony...we made a trade...and I agreed to no child support...so I wouldn't have to pay alimony -- tit for tat..he said he would push for alimony if I pushed for child support.....but I only agreed to no child support as long as he was unemployed..

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Ohhhh .. I'm sorry I haven't had coffee yet and my eyeballs have sand in them :)

You can ask anything you want .. I can tell you from experience if I didn't have a court order mine wouldn't pay a dime if he thought he didn't have to. Now I will give you he will take the kids and get them things if they ask him. Not if I ask though, .. so they make a list of things that they need I kind of figure I take them to their dr's appointments he can take them to get their glasses fixed, or he can take them for supplies for school projects, the things like that I do push. Hair cuts, a pair of shoes, pants, things of that nature I make sure they ask their dad for those things. He doesn't do anything else as far as school goes, it's a chore to ask for him to help with homework so they do what they can there on those days and do the rest at home.

That's not to say that they get those things when they go over and even they know when it will happen and when it won't. So they are learning at what point to push and what point to let go.

Hugs P :)

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

I do that too, to some extent...he did pay the money to rent my son a saxophone for band. I guess that is better than nothing...he just has no clue what it takes to support his kids. now theres a newsflash...

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Mine doesn't understand what childsupport really is .. he doesn't understand that it doesn't cover back to school clothes, back to school supplies, back to school registration fees. Medical, dental, glasses are all under a different catagory. He doesn't understand just like you stated .. how much it costs to raise kids. In his mind because I don't have a job yet, he IS paying for those things. I keep trying to explain to him that is his responsibility for having children and I pay the household bills as well as many other things so they can have a roof over their head, an education, and so on. I'm not out going on vacations, spa treatments, not paying the house hold bills having a great time with this extra cash that I have .. LOL. Wait until I get a job and he has to pay childcare costs .. he's going to do a flip over that one. He will have to pay more than 50% of those costs.

Hugs P :)

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

My first ex mother in law says that because I wanted the divorce, I shouldn't have expected child support - her arguement runs along the line of, well, you have to pay rent for yourself, utilities and food for yourself, etc. Child support isn't to pay for those things so since you already pay for them, what do you need child support for? My ex got out of paying a lot of support because I just live cheap and don't want to fight, not worth it in the long run. Some men figure they won't work so they don't have an income and then child support can't be taken from them. They don't see child support as a man/father duty, they see it as the witchy ex-wife just wants my money! But - I've seen situations where its exactly that, the child support DOESN'T really go for the kids so the ex wife can go gamble and drink and whatnot - so I understand where the sentiment comes from.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

You have to pick your battles. You are such a smart woman, but these are spiritual choices. It will help to pray and meditate over a few basic points:

Is he too sick in the head to work still?
Is he too annoying and self-centered to even talk to?
Will any communication with him at this point make you want to kill him?
Is he going to have a sane reaction to a sane request?
Are you able to communicate what you want and why in a way he might actually respond to?
Is your request, while reasonable, going to fall on deaf, drunk, and mentally ill ears?

All of that is what goes into what you choose to do. Like most things, there are no simple answers and it's your task to act from a place of being spiritually centered so you can feel good about you and your choices at the end of the day.

Supporting you,

Mark

Green Eyes · ~*Service Worker*~

Mattie- here is the exact response from my CA lawyer when I asked her if I could drop his coverage during my company's Open Enrollment period:

"You need to maintain his medical/dental/vision/legal insurance coverage until judgment is entered, as it is required by the Automatic Temporary Restraining Orders that are automatically issued when the divorce case is opened. Once the judgment is entered, you will be able to cancel his coverage at that time. We can request a reimbursement for the premiums you are paying on his behalf post-separation."

I doubt that I would go after reimbursement on this after we are divorced since he is in so much debt and may not still have a job. But, I guess things can change.

-- Edited by Green Eyes on Thursday 25th of October 2012 04:56:36 PM

Green Eyes · ~*Service Worker*~

Sorry, rehprof, I meant to address my response to Mattie- I have now edited my post : )

-- Edited by Green Eyes on Thursday 25th of October 2012 04:57:34 PM

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

II just bought my kids cheap costumes, a dress for my oldest for homecoming very cheap, but nice, the needed new clothes and shoes when school started and school supplies without child support I couldn't have bought these things for them. Talk to someone at child support if you feel it could help. My exAH barely works, but every little bit helps.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't think you should let it go, but I would be dubious about the value of asking. He clearly wants to get out of paying child support, or he would be trying to do it. So I would expect the same prevarication as when we ask about their drinking.

The person I would ask is an attorney. (Even better if you can get a little bit of free advice from someone with some knowledge, and ask if it's worth paying an attorney to ask). But it's clear that your ex has gone back on his agreement.

The good news is that it's also clear he can get along without alimony. To get out of paying child support, I can well imagine that he might try the threat of alimony. "Yeah, well I could get alimony out of you! You should be glad I'm not doing that! So back off!" But if he's kept going without alimony, that shows he can do it. And he hasn't found a job (or it sounds as if he hasn't even been looking for a job), so there's evidence that he's a slacker. I believe alimony these days is rarely looked on as a life income; it's supposed to help the divorced person get back on their feet and find a job. So his actions have been the kind that might show the court that he doesn't need alimony and that his own actions are what's holding him back. For what it's worth, my experience is that unemployment does not mean the courts don't levy child support. After all, kids with an unemployed parent still have to eat. They might set child support very low, like $150 a month. But everything helps.

I manage to eke out the smallest bit of child support out of my deadbeat, chronically unemployed (by choice) ex, but I did so by means that wouldn't work for most people. (I drove a hard bargain over something else he wanted.) But I also try to get in extras along the side. This works for me only because I am pretty cagy and my ex is pretty willing. But for instance I said this week, "Hey, carving pumpkins is such a dad-son thing. Why don't you bring over a couple of pumpkins and you and [Son] can carve them out on the porch? That'll be a great memory for him." So he'll bring over a couple of pumpkins and that saves me pumpkin money, at least. Sometimes at the end of the month every penny counts! But I know this wouldn't work for many exes.

I hope you'll go for that support, in whatever ways that will make it most likely that you'll get it.

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

pinkdhip...you ALWAYS make me laugh

"Will any communication with him at this point make you want to kill him? " Yes indeed.

I DO have to watch the expectation/resentment thing...because if I think about his lifestyle right now...it really does disturb my serenity...

I think I've decided to just let it go, and not open a can of worms. Yes it is not right that he lays around reading books all day..while I bust it working all the time...and even a couple hundred dollars a month would help...but I think I like serenity better than what little money I'd get from him...

am I weenie-ing out?

Green Eyes · ~*Service Worker*~

IMHO, no, you are not "weenie-ing out." I can relate to some of the issues you are going through, even though my divorce is still not finalized and my kids are grown. My STBXAH is currently unemployed, and is not even trying to look for a job. He seems to find time to go close the bar down every night and even go golfing once a week (one of my daughters just moved in with him and has casually mentioned what he has been up to these days).

In the meantime, I am still covering his health/dental/vision/legal insurance through my employer's group coverage (I moved out 1 1/2 years ago). My lawyer told me yesterday that the only way that I can drop him from my coverage is to ask his permission. I can also inform him that I will be asking for reimbursement from the court for these costs if he requests that the coverage continue. I, too, have decided to just let it go. I could really use that extra money right now as I am struggling to support myself, but it's not worth it to even attempt to go there with him and open another can of worms. I have a lot of resentment regarding this issue (and many others- he's asking for half of my take home pay), but I have been working on doing a personal inventory and figuring out how to focus the energy back on my recovery. What we are going through does not seem fair, but in the end, we can hold our head's up high and know that we are in a better place today.

orchidlover · ~*Service Worker*~

You know I have that issue of asking people for things I know they are not able to give. I know it is a throwback to the childhood issue of not getting my needs met on any level at all beyond subsistence. How hard it is to see people for what they are. I have met many men who shirk the responsibility of taking care of children. Certainly some legal intervention can prompt some of them into the task other times the effort of making the legal intervention is not worth it.

I think the task of mourning the husband who never was is a huge one. I am doing a fourth step and looking at my issues of trust and how I never could see people for what they were. Now I can I can anticipate that my normal response is not that accurate and live with it. Of course the task of being all on your own is a very difficult one. Of course he is never probably going to acknowledge he didn't step up to the plate. I've waited many a lifetime for such an acknowlegement at some point I came to terms with that it wasn't coming in my lifetime.

Maresie.

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

The decision to heal and change is hardly a weakness. From where I sit, it looks like you're making the choice to stop going in circles and start practicing something different, that's very powerful.

Al-anon isn't about struggling and fighting and stressing and straining although it is about speaking up for ourselves and taking responsibility to change the things I can. During my divorce, I tried to get what I needed to be okay in the future because my Higher power wants me to be okay in the future and I'm the one who has to do the footwork. I can't just sit back and hope this stuff falls out of the sky. Afterwards, I had to TRUST that things worked out just as they needed to, the universe unfolding as it should. That's the recovery principle I see you practicing here, trust. Mental rest, or surrender, is not at all a weakness, but rather, it's where new strength and energy comes in.

I gotta ask about your statement, "it is not right that he lays around reading books all day...."

is that statement true? absolutely true?!! Because it seems about right to me. To me, an alcoholic should be selfish, self-seeking, dishonest and fearful because they are!! but when I tell myself they shouldn't, I go crazy. so I gotta watch what I tell myself. Ours is a thinking problem.

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

glad lee -- EXACTLY and RIGHT ON. I have to let go of expecting him to do what's right...it DOES disturb my serenity to resent his disease..and expect things of him that he will never do.

some days, YEP, it just makes me mad...and I would love to have a day to lay around and read...

but...it's true...this resentful thinking just is a symptom of how this disease has affected me..and I gotta let it go....

I struggle with enabling him....vs. letting things go...never quite sure of that line sometimes.

AStrongerMe · ~*Service Worker*~

Ok I skipped the responses so if I duplicate anything ignore me LOL.

Child support is the one thing that can be re-evaluated over and over. ANY change is cause for re-evaluation. Once you write off alimony, it's a done deal, can't go back and change it. However child support can and I don't think that's just a CA thing.

If you have more costs to absorb, lower pay, less hours, yatta yatta - anything that is cause for needing a change to child support will allow you to open the case again.

Granted... IS IT WORTH IT? Weigh it because my experience is that when I attempt to get my ex to financially support his kids he goes for the juggular (loses) and fights for 50/50 custody even though he doesn't even like spending time with them and they usually don't want to be with him. It just causes a fight.

My ex has used the write off of my middle son that I graciously gave him (it's my write off) to help him - and what he's done has been to re-file every tax return since we divorced to pay off the child support. I gave up caring. I gave up fighting it. I pay for everything, always have. I have 5 years of documented $20,000 in medical costs (one of our kiddos is medically expensive) that he will never pay half of. I paid off HIS CAR loan after he defaulted because they refused the title to MY CAR so I could sell it. I'll never see that. I just chalk it up to what happens when you marry someone who's horrible with money. He was when I met him and I never considered at the age of 22 that MIGHT cause me gigantic grief 15 years down the road.

I gave up the fight, but I did want you to know that you can never permanently write off child support. Either one of you can re-open the case.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

GreenEyes, I am astounded to hear that the only way you can drop your soon-to-be-ex from your insurance coverage is with his permission. This is the exact opposite of what both my lawyer and my Human Resources company rep told me about my insurance. I really would confirm that with your Human Resources or insurance rep. There are no laws that I am aware of that require you to insure other members of your family. Maybe there is some requirement in your state that I'm not aware of, but I would double-check.

And once you're divorced, your insurance should not cover him in any way. This will be the insurance company's rule, not your decision. Be sure you notify the insurance company or your HR dept. of the divorce and get him formally dropped then. Because you can be sure they wouldn't cover him if he got some expensive illness and they found out. I used to work for an insurance company, and they have whole departments dedicated to finding out who's not really insured when they make claims. It would be doubly awful to pay for his insurance costs and not even get the benefit for them!

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

I had to maintain my Ex's coverage, but only until the divorce was final.

Stronger...that is the whole thing I'm struggling with...is it worth the $200+ a month to go through the hassle? maybe not...and maybe part of me just really wants him to do the right thing for once. I have to give up the thought of a better him.

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Reprof- thanks for your post. I have a similar struggle and found the responses to your post very helpful. I've been engaged in this battle a long time and, in my case, I can honestly say that during this whole time nothing has changed. He only becomes less nasty for the times he wants something, and, of course, it's all about him and his needs and him never having enough. I am working on my part. It feels like continuing or walking away can both be harmful... so far, I'm continuing until it becomes clear to me that I need to walk. My case will likely go to trial and come under the mercy of a judge who may or may not determine a random ruling. My spark of hope for "fair" still burns, but, I have a sinking feeling that that ship has long sailed.

It is my understanding, in my state, that prior to dropping healthcare insurance, notice, within a certain time frame, has to be provided with offering an option for COBRA.

Wishing you serenity with whatever decisions you make.

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

I figured that out, Green, no probs.... biggrin

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

GreenEyes, I understand now. Sorry, I didn't mean to second-guess you. I hope the process will soon be finished and you can use that money for something useful!

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Remember we cannot control anyone else? What makes you believe just because you ask he will do it? They are his kids, he knows they need support, he knows you work all the time. If someone cared I would think they would do it on their own.

He does not even think to take care of himself, so no way would one think to take care of others. This is a person who blew thru all that money, that many of us could have made last five years.

Sounds to me like you are very tired! Grasping to find any hope to help you and your family. I am so sad too things are so hard, and he is so so sick.

Maybe it would help to look at other options. It may not be what you want, but may be more what you need. Not being there to see what you are trying to do I cannot really see what they might be.

Get rid of car payment, get a vehicle with cash and only have liability insurance. I have a nice pickup, runs great, just have liability. No cable or satellite tv, I use the computer to watch things. Wash in cold water, hang up what you can, use dryer as little as possible. Look at all those things you might think won't make a difference but really will.

I sure hope you get some relief, sadly on here for so many years I do not remember even ONE time the active A ever paid a dime to anyone.

I do care about you very much. love,debilyn

rehprof · ~*Service Worker*~

Debilyn..you are SO right.

It's really hard to give up the idea that he might do the right thing. Makes me sad.

Thankfully I'm resilient, and though I'm tired...I'm making it work, most days.

AStrongerMe · ~*Service Worker*~

I know that sadness rehprof. Don't fight it. It leads, believe it or not, to understanding. We fight to fit them in the round hole, hoping they can be the person we believe is possible but the truth is they don't want to be that person yet. Maybe ever.

I was angry and sad when I accepted my ex would never contribute to supporting our 3 kids. For several years but in time, I began to just feel sorry for him. And pretty soon I just recognized that he's sick. Sick in body, mind and spirit. I'm sure he wonders why his life is so difficult and so frustrating. He's admitted a few times to considering ending it all. I just accept he cannot find his way out and that his "karma" if you will, is his life.

His consequence for living the way he does and making the choices he does, is the life he has. It's pretty bleak. I am often tired and exhausted from having to work so hard to do it all - but I'm happy and have a good life.

I wouldn't trade it.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.