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I was mulling this around this early AM today, yes .. I probably shouldn't think to much however I am in the middle of a nasty little situation. I have to say that the lying is so part of the disease that in my case in dealing with the STBAX .. he can't tell the truth. It's not a matter of won't. If he were practicing a program of recovery and still continued to lie then yes .. it's then turned into he won't tell the truth and helloooo king baby.
I've been watching him spin with my popcorn out wondering at what point will it stop and the lies get more and more outrageous and I believe him less and less.
Recently I was informed it was really sad I didn't believe him and that was my issue not his .. I actually did burst out laughing. It's kind of hard not to when he was so straight up serious about what he was saying he completely believes that he tells the truth 100% of the time. I was so taken off guard as far as the whole are you kidding me thing. I did, I actually laughed.
I'm not sure if this is right to do or not .. I did let him know after 3 years of consistant lying why would he even imagine that I would believe one word that came out of his mouth without some kind of confirmation of follow through so no what my issue is .. it's discernment and it's good that I have that ability to know and not need confirmation all of the time if it's a lie or truth .. I just assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.
It's what he's saying at work to people that he's completely unaware that I know, .. more than one person he has told that it's such a good thing I"m in recovery as it's helped me a lot. Oh it has how nice I have his blessing to get healthy and well .. lol. Whatever. The next was we were divorced and there was no one else involved for either of us .. I about spit my soda over that one. Never mind that he's heavily involved with someone and has been since before he left .. I dont' know if it's the same someone and it doesn't matter to me anymore. I know whatever they grow will be crap anyway, cause there is no foundation built on integrity for either of them. We are so not divorced and I'm so hoping it's completed in 2013 we'll see. For a guy who wants out so bad he is certainly balking about everything and we have nothing .. thank goodness .. if we had anything I would hate to see what would happen then. I'm aware that other things were said and it was kind that people held their tongue on those things. I had a good laugh over those things though. He honestly believes what he's saying.
Friday was a very ugly phone call, I'm sure I have a part in it as far as it's probably better to let him spin and not push the merry-go-round. I did and I have to own that however what I said initially wasn't that flamable at all unless of course the person on the other end is receiving it realizes they have been caught in an untruth. I didn't even say it that way I mean I know you are lying blah blah blah. It was so we are clear you are really going to be laid off for a week in Dec, the other week is a waiting period before the money kicks in. Then I went on to say that the other 2 weeks he continues to call lay off it's really a shut down. Is that correct in what I'm stating and I can tell I've completely taken him off guard because of how he responded. The reason this point is important is because it doesn't effect his income there is a huge difference between layoff and shut down. Shut down he can use vacation time .. lay off he can't. He's taking me back to court in Jan to get things lowered and it's all in God's hands I have a court order now and it's probably to my benefit that he's on supervised probation at this point.
What facinated me more than anything was the whole can't he tell the truth or won't he tell the truth and honestly in the midst of his active addiction .. he can't. This helps me because it once again reminds me (I actually need to be reminded daily) that he is a very sick man. He is truly physically sick as well as mentally ill. In that regard I can have a point of compassion .. not much .. it's better than it was over the weekend. I still am struggling to feel anything towards him at the moment .. I'm not even really angry anymore .. it's more just do what he needs to do, .. leave me alone, do what the court order says and honestly he doesn't have to hear from me or my atty, don't cause the kids undo damage and we'll get along fine. I do not care what he does during his down time without the kids. Now the lying is completely bleeding over onto the kids, that bothers me a lot. Even they are starting to make comments about .. what dad says and what he does doesn't make sense. I just shrug my shoulders and say I'm sorry that is happening, you are right his actions and words should be the same. What I want to say to him is a waste of breath.
Anyway, it's very very interesting to watch and not have to be a part of all this crap that is floating around. It's still not an easy thing to do to say the least, to mind my own business, keep the focus on me and remember he can show his own hinney far better than me needing to rip the towel off and show it for him. I'm really struggling in that department. Especially when what he has said gets back to me. I'm even more facinated by the fact HE wanted the divorce HE wanted to move on with his life .. I'll tell you .. I'M not allowed to do so or the kids even. Everytime something good happens to the kids and I .. WOW .. it's crazy how he reacts to it all.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
oh wow the lies! I know what your going through and I feel for you. My AW is the same way when she drinks. She will actually rationalize and justify a blatant lie and when I call her on it she would go into some itty bitty tiny detain that would make what she said truthful. I couldn't belive it. It wasn't till I started reading the big book that I was able to understand and come to terms with her disease and that her "THOUGHT PROCCESS" was diseased and really screwed up. Thats whe I started to understand that she was in denial and was dealing with masive amounts of guilt. That twisted ability to convincer her self she was being honest was her brains way of protecting her from hating her self. She hated her self and didn't want to be a "bad" person so she would twist reality to suit what she wanted to see and think. This is one of the ways that makes this disease so vile and cunning. Life does get better. and so can we!
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IF YOU ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS DONE, YOU WILL ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS GOT
Thanks for your share Pushka. I don't know why I'm surprised by my exAH's comments/ thought process time and time again. To say this is a very sad disease is a huge understatement.
I think about exAH's thought process often, as Rellik describes. Also, recently, I am aware of his strong need to avoid conflict is also defined as "going with the flow". When he said it, his arms spread out wide from his sides... my imagination envisioned him on a surf board trying to go with the flow... anyway, his going with the flow means to him not having to take responsibility for his actions. He would rather let others dictate for him so he would not be in a position of being wrong or blamed for nasty behavior. To me, it means that he is closed to my interacting with him in a capacity that makes sense.
I have two friends who have recently been divorced from NON As and the behavior was the same as you describe. It looks as if in a Divorce situations people try to avoid paying money for anything!!!. It becomes the main goal of negotiations. I have also seen my own friends tell untruths about the separation and divorce. They omit information. lie, tell have truths in order to impress the world and make themselves look good.
I do believe that I would avoid any of these discussions with him You have a lawyer and so does he, Discuss your concerns with your lawyer and have your lawyer deal with this nonsense. Your serenity is worth more than trying to reason with insanity.
Please be gentle with yourself during this very difficult time.
Betty has a point, isn't it amazing the lies we hear others tell or even the lies that we tell in an effort to impress others or minimize situations?
I know I've been guilty of it in the past, if I'm honest. Granted I don't lie about stuff like drinking, but I might lie about how many times I've gone to the gym that week or something stupid like that. Now, I had every intent to get to the gym that day, but I didn't so I guess it doesn't count, UGH!
It sounds like things are getting ugly, Pushka. Can you keep contact to a minimum via email or via your lawyers? As you said, don't waste your breath. It always sucks when they do this crap to the kids, though. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. Hang in there, sending you lots of support and prayers your way!
Since your proceedings are taking longer - ask for a bifurcation. You can be divorced and still work through settlement and custody. My lawyer did it for my sanity and because my ex had also moved on right when we split up. I was so happy. Divorced in Jan 2008, finalized in May 2008 with settlement/custody. We were divorced almost exactly 12 months from the date of separation.
Anyway, I see a lot of focus on your ex here - and over communication. Parenting topics only-court topics discussed through lawyers. Ok that's my opinion having done a heated divorce but my ex gets ZERO information about my life. Anything he learns is generally because one of the kids brings it up to him. Conversely I never ask him what's going on with him and when he starts to offer (he does a lot) I cut him off and end it. Who I date or don't date, what I do on the weekends or don't do, what my position at work has changed to - none of his business. He can find that stuff out through the lawyers if he so needs (except the dating stuff, he doesn't get to know unless I feel like telling him, my life). And the converse is true - who my ex is with or not, what he does, if he's employed today or not - none of my business. DCSS and the courts can handle it if I think it's needed.
I focused on my ex and talked about him constantly for probably 3 years straight - it was such a waste of time! And I would chat with him about stuff I didn't need to and then hear all his crap about work, layoffs, firing, his second marriage woes, etc. Honestly now I don't care and the money is not worth it to me. I could take him in right now because he has basically zero custody given his newest situation and change from me paying him (yes in CA the custodial parent can pay the non-custodial) to him paying me and I just don't care. I don't want his money, I know it's for the kids but I give them plenty of a decent life by myself now and it's not worth it to me. I was in court 3-6 times a year from 2007 - 2011 and then I just realized one day how insane it was. He took me in again, got me to pay him and I decided I was done. He can collect his measly $80 a month from me until it's paid off and then we'll just go our separate ways.
I spent a lot of years wasted on being right. On insisting he be an upstanding father and at least pay for his kids. It was a futile battle. Sometimes he had to pay me for awhile and then he'd purposely lose his job so he didn't have to pay again. There was just no way I was going to make him be something he can't. And the courts would levy another win in my favor and he'd go out and get fired again. He would sit in mediation for the 5th time, admitting to domestic violence, verbal and emotional abuse against the kids, having a drinking problem and they'd say "ok dad gets 5% more time, anger management again and another co-parenting and parenting class order". All that wasted time of trying to get a broken system to force him to be a father and they just made it easier for him to be a deadbeat.
Now that I let him off the hook, now that I have them 90%, I pay for 100% of everything but the food they eat at his house, now that I have not opened a court hearing in over 2 years, he's nice to me, cordial and is finally honoring the boundaries I've been drilling into him for years.
The loss of money and increased custody is well worth the payoff to have my sanity, to truly not care what he does in his life, to truly not need to know where he works, what he does, when he comes and goes, who he's seeing or not seeing (a married woman - only know because he told me this recently when I was trying to cut him off from over sharing again - he was drunk), etc. All I want to know from him is: "what days and times will you be seeing the kids".
That's it. It's so nice to be here, I cannot tell you how great it is to not need to know. Not need to be right. Not need to make him be someone he can't. He's not father material, he's a sperm donor who actually spends some time with his kids and everyone is happy now. Even the kids like the new arrangement. Same bed everynight - hang out with dad every other weekend during the day. Life is good.
Actually I need to stay married at this point because of insurance for myself. So the longer it takes honestly the better off I am with insurance until I can find a full time job with benefits as I work my way through school. I guess the reason I was thinking about this so much is because of the whole can't vs won't thing. As I thought about what happened on Friday and how he has spun more and is actually in the process of hanging himself. I'm finding less need to be right and yes, I actually have cut contact to a min at the moment .. we don't talk about the kids at this point because he literally has them 88 hours out of the month and he's not interested in anything else when it comes to them. I leave it to them to tell them what's going on at school if I get an email or information it's in our youngests folders if he chooses to look he can see what's going on if he doesn't then that's not on me. It's always there and available. The other thing is that I forward necessary emails that involve him I can turn that over to the school as well. Point is that the information is available if he chooses to view it.
The whole needing to be right I"m going to have to work on that one. It's not about being right as much as it is about protecting the kids and myself fiancially for as long as I can. He was going to try and pull the rug out from under me in December during the holidays and now he's not in a position to do so. He could have made me wait until court in 2013 and now that this has happened it kind of screws him on a lot of levels. What happened Friday as he was screaming on the other end and hadn't finished speaking I went ahead and told him that this would now need to completely go through the attys. I would no longer discuss anything of this nature with him. I hung up. I'm sure that went over like a fart in church. I received a text from him today threatening a co worker and if he chooses to go through with it .. he's going to wind up looking so stupid. I didn't bother to warn him I told the truth which is I honestly don't know what he's talking about. The poor guy he's going to drag into HR is going to think he's on drugs and it's not going to end well .. that I do know. I did have a good laugh he was citing a code of conduct through the company says the man who was screwing a married co worker. I'm sorry I think that's in their code of conduct as well. I was very good and didn't bring that up .. lol. Progress not perfection.
Very honestly he has no idea the crap storm he will be facing in a couple of months and what will go wtih it. He reactions to every situation puts me in a mode action and each time the rope just continues to tighten up. On his own .. he's spinning and I'm watching. Right now I'm right where I need to be and it just saddens me to watch him and think .. wow .. somewhere in the past I thought having a family and getting married was a good idea to this man. The disease is so awful. I don't make the money to say ok .. I'm just willing to let go .. at some point it will get there right now it's just not possible. I will if he can just hang on for a few years it will be ok.
I'm thinking he heard from my atty and is really ticked off because he is figuring out this isn't going away and he doesn't get to pretend other wise. Things will work out the way they need to and it will be ok. I'm not going to take any of this laying down either. I've watched two woman do that in my life one was my mom and I resented her for a long time for not fighting harder for us. I don't want to loose myself in this .. I also know I'm not willing to just say ohhh walk away and it will be ok either.
Further down in my healing I may feel differently .. today I do not.
Hugs P :)
__________________
Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
I hear you but I didn't have the money not to try and get him on board, but I ended up with $12,000 in attorney fees and a total overall child support owing of $8,000. If I could go back, I would have never set foot in DCSS nor asked for a dime. I'd have moved by my parents (I was paying half my income in daycare, the other half in rent) and gotten rid of the daycare costs and told a judge "sorry I had to move, couldn't afford the daycare on my own and you aren't making him pay me so can't do it". I'd have won that.
Just what I dealt with and looking back it was not worth the fighting, headaches, threats (from him) and insanity. I hope yours works out better, I know most that I talk to have the same feelings I do later on. In the end, the costs did not add up to being worth the fight :(
The can't vs won't issue was a lesson twix my sponsor and I and I learned tons. I forgot the subject we were talking about and my response to him was that "I can't do that". He kinda sorta asked me "You mean you are unable?" I arrived at the point of honesty that I was able and I wouldn't anyway. He said "So it's not that you can't, its that you won't". I had the time, the ability and the facility I was lacking the motivation and courage.
I've learned a bunch about lying in recovery also; mostly that most people...lie out of fear. Instead of saying "I am afraid to participate in that...or whatever...they lie about it". What I learned to do which my alcoholic/addict wife was change my approach with her after this discovery and would say "Tell me honestly..." and then the subject and if I was aware she was lying about it "What are you so afraid of"? That usually resulted in better communications of sorts. If she was willing to tell me what she was afraid of we got into how she could relax and communicate on what it was that we needed to share. Asking a person for honesty in a caring manner sets them up to do so many times...thats all for me anyway.
Alkies...just won't most of the time in my experience...get them around a bunch of other alkies and you find that they can and will.
Alcoholics are notorious liars. Add to that that he now views you as the enemy (even more than when your were together) and that you are out to get his money and turn his children against him (of course none of this is true, but I am betting that it is his perception) and you have someone whose communication with you is so sick and twisted that you can't trust any of it.
I suspect time is going to heal this to the degree it needs to be. I'm sorry you have to weather this in the meanwhile though.
