The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Not sure why you're asking us "Is there any real help out there for this disease?"... AA and Alanon is "real" help. Your opinion that the programs promote outdated and moralistic solutions and the ideas harmful is simply your opinion. The program works for many people. The program is proven to work when people want help... It works when you work it. If you don't trust the system, then you need to find a system that you trust. You don't have to live with an alcoholic, that's your choice. I don't believe the program resists change as much as it doesn't need to change. It works. Why change it!? I hope you are able to find the help you are looking for. There are other options that work for some people. Al-anon offers me hope. It offers me serenity. It offers me courage. It offers me change for my life. It helps me to work on my problems and see how alcohol has affected me and my decisions. It has helped my father stay sober for almost 20 years and counting. Sure, I could have found help somewhere else, but I chose Al-anon.
As for your latest post, I would suggest to you to do some reseach on the subject. Alcoholism is a complex disease and there are a lot of ideas on the subject.
-- Edited by Amandakay on Friday 24th of August 2012 01:57:24 PM
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Mandy
Don't settle for less than your potenial. Remember, average is as close to the bottom as to the top. ~Unknown
No matter how far you've gone down the wrong road, turn back! ~Unknown
I understand that alcoholism is a disease. I don't understand why in the year 2012 we are relying primarily on a program thought up a century ago. I can see the positive aspects of AA and Alanon, but most of those can be learned through other therapy. The slogans and prayer just remind me of faith healing however. Why does there seem to be very little other options available?
Well I know having a family with alcholism in various levels - I've seen this program work for many. Even centuries later. I dont' think being in AA precludes someone from seeking other additional help, but it's a program that has worked for many. I have an uncle who has been sober over 30 years, faithfully attends his AA meetings to this day even when he travels. It keeps him sober.
I have seen Dr. Drew recommend a drug called Campral that he said has been used In Europe for a while now. It reduces physical cravings for alcohol. I have researched it and it gets excellent reviews. .y AH did relapse but I don't think he is truly ready yet.
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"Just being there for someone can sometimes bring hope when all seems hopeless." - Dave G Llewellyn
There are other programs, you can find many on the internet. There are private centers for addictions that are very costly. There are Health facilities in California which is Kaiser, that my X husband attended, it was an excellent program. He failed , not the program. Bottom line the addict has to want to get sober. Has to be motivated to quit. There isnt an existing program out there that can make them quit if they dont want to.
You just have to read the posts on this board to know that Alanon works if you come with an openmind. I dont understand where you think the slogans are faith healing. There isnt much prayer in Alanon, Just the lords prayer at the end of meetings, which you dont have to participate in if you dont want to. Alanon has a saying , "take what you like and leave the rest." As far as a HP, thats between you and what you think that is.
One thing therapy doesnt have is the community and friendships we have developed and knowing that another person is going thru the same thing with this dreadful disease. There is nothing like the sharing of those experiences and the wisdom we have gained, which you can share with a new person who is hopeless and desperate and doesnt know what they should do.
Hope you keep coming back, this program is for you if you have been affected by someone's drinking.
I read the posts on here and I just feel like giving up. Drunk or sober, living with an alcoholic sounds like hell. They never get normal? Expecting emotional support from an alcoholic is like going to the hardware store for bread? I don't buy the idea that alcoholism controls every single thing the alcoholic does. What simplistic crap. I am not saying that I don't think AA or Alanon help, I just think they promote outdated and moralistic solutions to a psychological and physical disorder. Which I believe does more harm than good. I don't trust any system that resists change the way 12 step groups seem to.
I personally do not believe there is ever going to be any magic pill that "cures" alcoholism. Alcoholism is a disease of the body, mind and spirit. Someone might have a pill that fixes the physical craving or dependence, but that doesn't fix the mind or spirit.
I a way I suppose that what you say about 12 step programs being "faith healing" is true to me.
Learning to have faith in a power greater than myself, whatever that power may be, is one of the first steps in getting better for both alcoholics and those of us of have been affected by living with them.
And I agree with Bettina, while therapy can give you some tools to improve your life, there can be no better place to see those tools being used, and to get help in learning to use them than in a group of people who share a common bond.
8 years 4 months of attending Al-Anon meetings for me. I am so very grateful that I found it, and was willing to give it a try. I has certainly worked miracles in my life.
Since when do we have "diseases of the spirit"? That is the kind of idea I find harmful. It isn't scientific, that comes straight from the drunken and drug-affected mind of a sick individual. Yet no one questions it. Doesn't anyone think there might be more treatments available if AA didn't exist? there is absolutely no reason to believe the human mind cannot heal after alcohol is removed. I don't know what I am trying to say. But why wouldn't people resist treatment when they are told it never ends?
Well, you certainly are entitled to your own opinion. Im certainly not going to debate you.
Do you live with an alcoholic? You said it" sounds like hell", so I assume you dont live with an alcoholic.
Nothing is forced upon you in Alanon, not even the 12 steps.
We are Alanon trying to find the best way to live with an alcoholic or not live with an alcoholic, the choice is ours. Alanon is all about solutions and doing the best thing for our lives. The choice is ours isnt it? I cant speak for AA, im not in that program.
Yes, I live with an alcoholic. But I don't believe that alcoholism explains or justifies abusive behavior. There is no gold medal at the end for allowing yourself to be abused. There is no compassion for the alcoholic in detachment. These programs actually encourage letting a mentally ill person get sick enough to "want" help. Would you do that to a schizophrenic? Someone who is bipolar? Either it is a real disease of the body and mind that deserves real help or it is a choice. You can't preach that alcoholics have no choice but leave it up to them to get help. Debate is important. Discussion is important. If I can't ask real questions here without running into the same old twelve step line then I guess this isn't the place for me.
I'm curious what you mean as well. "Why wouldn't people resist treatment when they are told it never ends?" Going by my recent experience with my exABF he's going to die from the disease unless he stops. Not "might die" from it - will die from it. He is a binge drinker, every first sip results in a .40 within 24 hours and a 3 day stint in detox.
I suppose the question I might have would be, what would cause someone to have anger at a program that has helped so many, because there is no guarantee it will help everyone? Even my son with mental illness has to take his medication for it to work. Even a diabetic has to take their medication and watch their diet to keep the disease under control. Science has done a lot already to identify the changes in an alcoholic's brain and body but the emotional issues, those are the biggest battle.
For me, to exclude something that has worked - seems to be the opposite end of the spectrum, no?
Why turn to science when they haven't proven themselves to cure everything yet? Science has been around for centuries and they are still working on it. I suppose I find it harmful that people expect science to fix everything and are often let down. Can't tell you how many stories there are out there of people hoping a new "cure" will work only to end up losing a loved one.
Also, there are more treatments. There have been advances in medication ongoing. Medications that make an alcoholic violently ill if they drink to deter drinking. Medications that curb the craving. Medications that shorten detox and reduce the damage to the body during detox. AA isn't blocking the science community from their jobs. AA is their own community - people are free to come and go from it as they wish.
And there is the human part of this. I hear the medication that makes you ill, once you pass a certain level of drunkenness it stops working, so if you can drink through it awhile, you're good to go. If someone wants to drink bad enough, no science, no medication, no nothing will get in their way. The numbing of whatever emotional pain they experience is the payoff for them.
I'm curious about the human mind healing part. Are you suggesting someone can stop being an alcoholic if they simply refrain from drinking? I'm sure if that's what is meant here, there are many, many long time AA'ers who can relay about those who went dry for 10, 20, 30 years and the day they picked up one drink, they were as hooked as ever.
I assure you, given my first hand experience with schizophrenia and Bi-Polar - that the person has to agree to take the medication. You cannot force even the mentally ill into treatment or to get help. How many times have I had to call the police because my teen son suddenly decided he did not need his medication and refused to take it? And I brace already for the day he is on his own. Because it's a known fact that the majority of them decide to stop taking medications as they become adults, experience all kinds of horrors - jail, homelessness, fights - before they come to the raelization, on their own, that they have to take it to survive.
Not even slightly different than hitting bottom for an alcoholic. Would I allow my son to go without medication? The correct question is, can I force someone to do something against their will?
Of course not. I can't stop an alcoholic from taking a drink nor can I stop my son from refusing his medication.
Im sorry you are hurting, erliechda. My experience is that when I am angry, then underneath it is fear and/or pain. Thank you for coming here. I have found that no one truly understands the pain and dichotomies of loving an alcoholic like the members of Al Anon.
I stopped drinking 4 years ago using AA. You can't tell me it doesn't work because I am living proof it does. I would channel the anger you have at program not working for your qualifier into something more productive. If AA did not work, why would it still be around? Why are there meetings all over the world in just about every country?
No, it's not the only way. There are other ways and even literature in AA states, if you find another way, our hats are off to you.
The concept of alcholism as a disease is hotly debated but generally, it's viewed as a disease like diabetes which is one that can be treated and put into remission. The "choice" is in whether or not to seek recovery. There is not choice involved in whether or not to be an alchoholic.
Treatment never ends for diabetes, hemophilia, lupus, chronic arthritis, severe allergies and countless other diseases and problems. The argument about "why wouldn't people give up when the program lasts a life time?" is pretty obtuse. We stick with the program to have a life.
As far as alanon...well, that is to turn the focus back on you. I think it would be of service since you seem to have a big resentment and lots of anger at the disease of alcholism. It's not fun to live that way.
Aloha erleichda and welcome to the board I am for one am glad you are here and posted what you posted so I could get a look at what I was like and where I was back then regarding the disease of alcoholism. I've been around the programs a long time and when I first got into Al-Anon it was at the suggestion of my then alcoholic/addict wife's sponsor. I went so that I didn't look like I wasn't cooperating and then when I went I was without any understanding of the disease of alcoholism/addict and pretty much destroyed the first two meetings I went to. I was as dumb as a stick and rageful as hell and told the membership that if they wanted their alcoholics to straighten up just turn them over to me and I'd take care of it. LOL and I had a wife in the other room who I had no control over. It was suggested that I try several AA meetings and I was so rageful I thought I would have a stroke. My mind was welded shut and the only voice I heard was my own and the only thing I offered was criticism of everything. When my alcoholic/addict wife needed verification that she didn't need AA herself she asked me if I thought she was alcoholic and I replied "No" and so she quit and went back out and it nearly then cost her life. Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical related to poisons therefore the term intoxification when describing "drunk". If you want a more scientific description of the disease of alcoholism look it up in the AMA journal. We use to read it before our meetings when I got into the program for real. It changed my attitude positively as my then wife became a sick person and not a bitch who was doing this just to get at me.
Al-Anon and AA and ACOA and Alateen and such 12step recovery programs a called social model therapy because those who are recovering help those who want recovery...we share what we learn and practice and what works for us and since everyone is free to "take what you like and leave the rest" each member has a multitude of alternatives to look at and work with if they want to.
Al-Anon is very often referred to by professionals for their patients who are affected by someone elses drinking whether the alcoholic/addict at home is still drinking and using or not.
Alcoholism predates the life of Christ by several thousands of years so it's been around for a long long time; so long in fact that there is a dna marker for it. Children of alcoholics and addicts are predisposed genetically (part of my college work on the disease) toward the disease. I am one of these and it explains why (to me) I just couldn't think my away out of it or believe my way out of it (it's not a moral issue...it's a real disease...not a symptom of something else with it's own pathology). I was turned on by my grandmother at the age of nine and no one in the room knew what was happening to me except my mother who was trying to stop my grandmother from my cultural initiation. No one in the room knew what alcoholism was, genentic predisposition, cultural conditioning, incurable disease...anything. I got turn on. When I got into Al-Anon I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know anything at all about addiction...alcohol or otherwise. I was married to a woman who got drunk to fast and to often and wouldn't drink like me tho she wished to in the worst of ways. I was 37 when I got into the program and had a maturity level of 13-14...want to keep a living organism from growing and maturing? just add alcohol.
So when I got here I knew only one thing...I was certifiably insane and didn't know why...I thought I was supposed to have a successful happy life and I was suicidal...go figure. I called help in emotional turmoil and they were all out to lunch. I called the suicide prevention center and there was no one there to help me and then by some amount of fate I found my finger on the hotline number for Al-Anon and found a woman to talk to who knew where I was at, what was the trouble and willing to open the door for change for me. The next monday I was in my first "for real" Al-Anon meeting and waited the program out until I could get into college and learn the real story about it and found tho I learned lots of technical stuff I could use to help others, Al-Anon already was giving me everything I needed to help myself.
You are the one that has come looking for resolution and to me that means that you don't have the answers and your own thinking is inadequate. That was where I started...that was me. You took the opportunity to reach out...Yay so did we all. You have been listening...Al-Anon suggested to me that I do that with an "open" mind and I would find help. I had to turn my thinking OFF and leave the door to my mind wideopen without and boundaries or barriers to what I would hear from the members who came before me and for whom the program was working. I went to 102 meetings in 90 days and mostly just sat and listened which was best because I didn't have much experience to speak of and often I wasn't nice about how I said what I said...I was frustrated...sick and tired of being sick and tired and I didn't want to die standing up.
Is there any real help out there for this disease. "If you keep and open mind you will find help" you will hear that statement made in the closing statement of our face to face meetings. I suggest you (I only suggest what I did and what worked for me) find the hotline number to Al-Anon in the white pages of your local telephone book and find out where and when we get together in your area. Get to the first meeting that is availableto you...go in, all the way in and find your chair, sit down and participate if you wish, tell your name (first only) if you wish, be quiet and listen. At the end of the meeting if you have a desire for more personal conversation stick around and talk with some of the old timers and then if it is possible plan on 90 meetings in 90 days...If not get to as many as you can in the following 90 days...get phone numbers to call in between when you need personal attention...you're asking for help not giving it...and get literature...lots of pamphlets and readers. After 90 days you get to decide if this is real help and if you want to stick around at all. If you don't you can try any of the other alternatives that are available to you, what ever the cost and you get a refund on your miseries when leaving. (that also was told me).
Keep coming back here...reading, sharing, pushing at the door...when you surrender all of your resistance to finding and getting help and are willing to go to what ever lengths to get it...you'll get it and there will be no question about whether it works or not. We say it works when you work it.
Keep coming back. Your's in love and service (((((Hugs)))))
I am truly confused by your responses. You come to an alanon site, critique alanon and AA and then ask if there are any other alternatives. It is apparent that we have found a solution that works for us so why should we offer other solutions
If this program is not for you,I understand and would like to suggest that you Google alcoholism and find another source of support or information.
-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 25th of August 2012 01:55:30 PM
-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 25th of August 2012 04:41:18 PM
Resisting the "program" is not the same as being in denial. Both my alcoholic husband and I are aware he has a problem. He is not drinking, but dealing with the urge to drink. Is it possible for any of you to offer any practical advice other than faith, prayer and unquestioning obedience to the steps? I know we are not the only people not getting pour needs met by the AA/Alanon. I mistakenly thought I could find some open-minded support and reason here. Instead I have been talked down to and had the same crap fed to me. You people are aware that your approach runs as many people off as it helps, aren't you?
Have you read "Under the Influence"? It's illuminating, for the physical part of the disease. It's a small book but well worth reading. Also, there are lots of other programs out there besides AA and Alanon if those are not for you. Why don't you go Google them and look them up, instead of knocking these two programs that people here DO get a lot out of?
I suppose if I wanted to prove that 12 steppers can only give me 12 step advice, going to a 12 step board would be a good start.
There must be other therapies and ways, your research was sound enough to find us, I have faith you can find the other places.
Along with the medications mentioned, I would like to recommend the book "Boundaries: when to say yes, how to say no" by Cloud & Townsend. Not 12 step but excellent for anyone in a relationship with an addict.
Best of luck to you.
I SO remember the anger and frustration you are expressing. I came to Alanon for 18 months. Sat in meetings and argued with everything I heard. I truly had an answer for everyone else's problems. I HATED the "God" aspect. I thought the slogans were trite and stupid. I thought the people were sheep and had NO original or creative ideas and I was DARN SURE that NOT ONE of those people had it as BAD as I did. At the time, my AH was in AA.
I got angry enough to stop going.
About a year later, my ex relapsed and I hit MY bottom. We had gone to marriage counselors and he had done independent psych counseling. They had BRILLIANT suggestions like "when your AH rages at you, stand there ad take it so he doesn't feel abandonded" and "make him dinner more often" and "compartmentalize your anger towards him" Yeah....brilliant.
When I finally hit my bottom, because I had TRIED EVERYTHING to control this disease, I came back to alanon. I sat and listened and cried and everything these people said started to make sense to me. It was gradual...but at that point I was willing to try anything because I was in so much pain. I was sicker than my AH.
Now, Aism is a dis-ease. And yes, medication can help. But A's brains are wired differently. It is different from JUST a chemical imbalance like diabetes or bipolar. And in with those dis-eases there HAS to be a total LIFESTYLE change if the person is to become healthy again. Just taking meds won't cure any of those dis-eases.
Now, the best part of alanon for ME was to be in a room full of people who understood. They completely understood my tears, my anger, my LOVE for my AH. They GOT it. And they didn't JUDGE me. The loved me because they remembered what it felt like to feel the way I was feeling. And that was such a comfort. That is how it helped me. The counselors didn't give me that unconditional love, they didn't really get what loving an A means.
I found peace, understanding and comfort in the rooms of alanon. But only after I was ready. Before I was ready I just found anger and resentment and a desire to change others.
Wow, you have received open and beautiful shares from people who have found a way to find serenity while dealing with alcoholism and want to share that with you. Your response is anger and hurt. I can relate and it took me 10 years to come back and get serenity in my life after my first brish with Al-anon. You are allowed to disagree and feel however you choose. I do hope you can find a way to get help in any way that works for you. Sending you love and support on your journey!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
