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I was reading another post about ultimatums & it got me thinking, I have never given AW an ultimatum. I have never said "if you don't stop drinking I'll ........." If you get drunk at the party I'll.........". Of course I would lecture her after it happened as any good codependent would do! I knew that from growing up with my fathers alcoholism, ultimatums didn't work. They didn't work when I gave them to him & the family meetings (not quite a family program) from his treatment center reaffirmed they didn't work.
But now I have a feeling like I haven't given it a chance, maybe it does work? My mind & my gut tell me that it doesn't but there is doubt in my heart that it does work. I feel like I need to exhaust EVERY avenue of trying to make our relationship work but where does it end? Trying something I know is useless just to ease the doubt in my heart? My heart has doubts because it is in pain, not because there is some hope it will work.
Did I save myself wasted energy by not making ultimatums or is it a path that must be travelled?
I would change "giving ultimatums" to the AW to "setting boundaries for yourself." I don't believe ultimatums work either. It is just a form of control in my eyes.
I just had a similar conversation with my dil this morning. I tried to explain to her about setting boundaries for herself and what she is going to do if he drinks and then she needs to do it. It is futile to give him an ultimatum because when he wants to drink he doesn't care what she has to do to deal with it. That is not important to him in the moment. By setting a boundary (for herself and kids) she is taking the focus off him and putting it on herself and children.
His consequenses will then be on him when his family is not there when he is finished his drinking. Personally, I think she needs to stay at her mother's for longer periods of time every time he makes "his" decision to drink.
Our marriage therapist said that 'boundaries' set for yourself are just another way of saying ultimatum. I prefer to see it as doing something for myself. So, instead of saying, "If YOU drink again, I am out of here or you are out of here, " I can say, "I choose to not live with you if you continue to drink." Same idea, just phrased differently so that you are in control of your life and your not trying to control the alcoholic's life. In effect, you take control for YOU and forget about trying to control them because we all know that doesn't work!
I think the healthier approach to an ultimtum is a boundary. The ultimatum seems to be focused more on the other person, on punishing them for what they do or don't do, etc. Setting a boundary focuses on you, it outlines what is okay and what isn't okay for you. The consequences are not to punish someone for doing the undesirable, but instead to protect yourself from the actions of the other person. An ultimatum says "if you..." and a boundary says, "I want"... An ultimatum focuses on changing the bahavior in someone else, while a boundary focuses on what you find acceptable and unacceptable for you. The end result may be the same but the focus is different... Boundaries are good and healthy. You need boundaries. I think ultimatums happen because we don't have boundaries and we get fed up and so we give the ultimatum... Maybe ultimatum are the necessary evil when we don't set up boundaries... Regardless, whatever you do, this is a good opportunity to practice "mean what you say and say what you mean but don't say it mean"...
((((HUGS!))))
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Mandy
Don't settle for less than your potenial. Remember, average is as close to the bottom as to the top. ~Unknown
No matter how far you've gone down the wrong road, turn back! ~Unknown
It's difficult to know when something is an ultimatum versus when it is a boundary. I could use more clarity on this from other members I think. It would seem to me that it is realistic for some folks to reach a point where they might really benefit from "If you drink, I will leave." If you have reached that point and are ready to follow through. That's your boundary. It's something being done for you though and not for them. Something done for your sanity and self-protection and not to get them to stop drinking. It's hair splitting.
All parents issue ultimatums pretty much. I recall one of mine was "You will either maintain a B average in school by 10th grade, or you will not be getting your driver's license." This may also come in the form of "You will eat what I cooked, or you will go hungry." .... Now that I think about it, maybe these were not so much ultimatums but boundaries my parents were setting so I would internalize self-discipline.
I told my AH that I was not prepared to stay married while he drinks. I said: "the only chance we have at staying together is if you go to rehab, or we separate amicably now. If we stay as we are I will end up hating you and I don't want to do that."
Ultimatum? Boundary? It is all the same to me... you are saying you cannot live with the alcoholic, and whether you phrase it about them or yourself the message is the same.
I told my AH: "If you get help for your drinking, we can both work together to save our marriage." He said he was not going to quit drinking, so now we are in the process of a divorce. Not sure if this was an ultimatum or a boundary, but that's how it played out in the end.
Boundaries helped me to re-establish order in my life. Being around chaos and insanity had raised my tolerance of acceptable behavior, not only from my exAH but most everyone around me. Like Bettina, I also do not speak of many of my boundaries due to my exAH's need to cross them. There are also times when my boundaries are a bit more flexible when there is logic behind my reasoning for a unique situation. By not stating a flat line to cross I can maintain adaptations for people and a balance in making my decisions.
Having my boudaries crossed usually do bring about a consequence, any action does have a reaction, right? But the consequence, to me, does not always have to be stated beforehand.
Ultimatums, on the other hand, are my final draw a line in the sand point. Well articulated thoughts of this is where I stand and if this happens then this will be the outcome. I think it is the severity of the result that makes me feel it truly lives up to being an ultimatum instead of a consequence ... or maybe just my ultimatums only when my boundaries have been crossed enough that there is no medium option left.
I have lots of boundaries, have consequences for the crossing of them but have only needed to use an ultimatum with the A's in my life and in the long run it has helped me to live in peace but not inspired anyone else to seek change.
I had boundaries about drinking in front of me and so he took it to the garage or the bar or binge drank. I gave the ultimatum and he quit for a while and became very verbally abusive towards me and started sneak drinking and holding grudges towards me for keeping him in hiding. We split up. He drinks daily now and wanted me back, but decided he would not quit drinking this time. They become more aggressive as their need to drink progresses and nothing helps at that point.
Ultimatums don't work .. they create a hostile atmosphere of blame, the unspoken things .. if you loved me you would quit. You are a failure because you can't quit. It's a very negative thing. Boundaries do work because it creates change, as you change your sig other changes as well as other people around you .. you gotta be willing to follow through because if not it's only words. Many boundaries don't even need to be spoken they are in action only.
I am learning that I don't have to engage with my wasband .. I just send whatever it is that needs to be addressed to the atty. He takes care of the rest. I am enjoying the barge going down the river at this point. I still slip from time to time. It's ok. Progress not perfection. It creates a much more peaceful environment for the kids to be picked up and they are calmer. That is a boundary for me. I no longer feel the need to directly confront him about things .. although I had a good laugh this AM .. somehow his boxers came home with the kids clothes from the weekend .. LOL!! I sent a funny text, it doesn't matter to me how he saw the text. I thought it was funny .. LOL. They will go back with the kids tonight. :)
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Awesome shares! I got so much out of them & it cleared up what ultimatums are about. I still struggle with the guilt of not trying them if that makes any sense. It's like one day 20 years from now I'll wake up & say, "ya know, I never gave it a fair shot because I didn't say get sober or I'll leave"
But I take it step by step & hopefully will find serenity in my decision, whatever that may be. Country Boy
Well, Country...it is not to say that you can't do it to at least feel you did everything you could and maybe let go of any guilt you might feel that you didn't at least try it. However, please be ready to follow through on the ultimatum. For you this just might be a boundary in taking care of you and not a control tactic in trying to make her stop.
I do understand the urge to "Do or Say" anything that might help to "force a solution".
Alanon reminds us to "Say what we mean, Mean what we say and do not say it mean"". I see nothing wrong with stating how you are feeling and indicating that you do not know how long you will be able to continue to live like this. Then keep on taking care of yourself , attend your meetings and turn it over to HP.
I think as much as following through is important, what boundary you set is even more important. Think about the boundary and the consequence and really try to imagine going through it to see, "is this workable"?
I have an example. I told my exabf "you can't be around me when you drink, you have to leave" as a boundary. So first time I did my thing, had him leave. Found myself caught up in his game of getting me to come to HIM and it took me a couple days to raelize the insanity that had occurred.
So this time I made the boundary "I won't be near you when you drink". That stuck. This last episode (which was ultimately the demise of the relationship) I sent him off and the other boundary was no contact, so for 4 days I had no idea where he was, what he was doing or if he was alive. BUT my life was normal. I went to work, I took care of my kids, my house, myself. He resurfaced eventually to find out he'd lost me, was again wtihout a place to live and that I was still unwilling to be around him.
So be very careful about the boundary. I wouldn't set say a boundary of "you have to leave the state" because well I can't enforce that can I? And I need to be clear enough that I cover my bases and focus on me. The first one was about him leaving. The second one was about me and what I needed (not to be near him at all).
Good luck, it's doable. I think we all have to try everything before we make any serious decisions. And mine was a dating situation, very different from marriage. I was in a very bad marraige for 15 years before I was ready to truly be done.
There is a saying in al anon if you are going to make one mean it.
Of course ultimatums can start small like clean up after yourself. One I made was that I was not going to ride in the car with the ex A when he was obviously drunk. I think now he was always obviously high but I digress on that.
I also made ultimatums about being around his family. They were gruelling 12 hour encounters and I could not do them anymore. I said no.
An unenforced boundary only serves to teach others how to get around my boundaries. Long term consistency can eventually teach others to not bother trying.
Maybe a boundary is for me and an ultimatum is for others . Therefore an ultimatum is control and that is not acceptable.
The key can be in how things are presented as mentioned. Like a child, adults react differently to a constant negative vs. some positives. So the other side of the coin is positive reinforcement when appropriate. I cant live life like I have a sign that says Caution Electric Fence
What do I do to get a desired response that supports my need for reinforcement of my negativity? When I do the right things people respond in a good way. Not all but many do.
