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As some of you may remember, my Dad has been in AA since 1979. He has not had a drop of alcohol in that time, and still talks about one day at a time.
As you may also remember, he is here visiting with my Mum for three months and living in my unit under my house.
Every time they visit I know there will be fights etc. Particularly with me.
This time, I had been practicing Al Anon and ACA learning with myself and my husband. I have been diagnosed and working on the Borderline Personality that I am in treatment for. I have been improving me. I have identified 'other linda;s' within me and 'we' discussed meeting Dad again and having a fresh start. Offering ourselves to him again and ceasing to relate to him as the teenager I was before I left the state I grew up in. Essentially the last time I spent any more than a few weeks with him.
I was excited and in the beginning it was nice. I went for a morning walk with him and we seemed to be connecting nicely. Then the argument came. After that I am over it. More annoyance etc.
Anyway... the last couple of days have been the last straw. He is still the same dry alcoholic that sprouts off at various times about higher powers. It is my opinion that he is dry, working a program to maintain sobriety, but still.... he is not a nice person.
On these boards I have met alcoholics in AA. They seem to be able to have objective thought, see things from other angles, discuss options etc. NOt my Dad. He is still the selfish self absorbed person he ever was.
Yesterday Iwas not coping well at all. I was ready to rage. I thought about my own Al Anon learning. I felt here is a man who has been in the program for over 30 years and this is how it still is????
I have decided I am going to try a Truce. Boundaries aren't working because he is stil my father, 80 years old, deaf, half blind, has a couple of illness etc so I want to have our last days/years peacefully.
It is evident that our relationship will not get any better than it currently is. This is what I am going to have to accept. I do not have a Daddy daughter relationship. I have a daughter/alcoholic daddy relationship. I will have to learn to work with that.
On these boards I have learnt the 3 A's. I have been aware for a long time. Acceptance is where I have been lacking I think. Or rather, my definition of acceptance. Acceptance may not necessarily mean that I have to like it, or that our relationship will improve with that acceptance. I think at this point, it is accepting that this is what it is. STop trying to make it better. Fighting and having expectations of improvement of relationship, or fighting and hating him for what he is.. .not working.
It would help to have some sort of mantra for my head when I get to the end of my tether with him. Action for me will be walking away from the argument and not allowing it to stew in my stomach.
You know another thing I may have to accept... his personality may not be the alcoholism... my Dad just has a grating personality. Hmmmmm wonder where my personality disorder came from... oh wait.. I can see the apple tree from here, I haven't fallen very far at all!!!! It was my expectation that him being in AA was the answer to everything, as that is how it was promoted to me as a child. The world is rosey as long as Dad isn't drinking. I believe this has been ingrained so much, that he honestly believes he can do anything he wants otherwise, as long as he doesn't pick up a drink. I have actually heard him say that to me and my Mum. Well, if I am that annoying I may as well just have a whiskey. My Mum backs down after that. I have in the past picked up the threat and an argument ensues so I have stopped for my own sanity.
Anyway... as you can see, I am in a state of confusion and annoyance but I am still working on me with this 'other' addict. I also discuss this on the ACA boards but wanted some input from here too.
I was hoping that by me changing, I might find a nicer Dad.
To the AA members on this board, thanks for letting me see a side of alcoholism that is positive when you reply to me. Otherwise I would lose faith in all of this.
(((Oksie))) soooo lucid and honest!! For me the teacher has arrived. In AA we read in the traditions that the only requirement for membership "is a desire to stop drinking" and honestly as you know some Alkies will not go past that line and not further. Other Alkies will go miles beyond not drinking only; using everything and anything to grow mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually. They see the potential in progress where others will not...not just cannot; there is a difference and I believe the difference is in the personality of the alcoholic...self centered and egotistical to the extreem.
The mercy and grace for me is the rest of the program...and the Al-Anon program...acceptance, detachment, alternative choices, and mostly a power greater than my self with experiences which have worked for me in the past and with others (shared experiences). Like yourself I was born and raised within the disease (not my choice) and have the vivid memories and experiences from back then however I also have the vivid memories and experience of what worked later to keep me sane and very less affected by it expecially with those who by laws of nature were to be my mentors. I learned it is my responsibility to live my life and keep myself safe and sane and that I didn't need anyone's permission to do that...I was already expected to and that no fear of how others would or could react or respond to my efforts were justifications not to...I was finally free to choose and to act right - wrong - or indifferently. When I came to see my parents as brother and sister and understand that we had the same father (HP) the field went to level and the only differences were gender and age other wise we could have sat in a meeting and nodded like hell at the similarities of our lives.
Today I can stand up for myself without a loud voice or some unique justification or arguement. I make my choices I have my consequences in mind...I get to walk it with out blaming others for how it comes out.
Part of my truce today is what goes around, comes around. I love you like I love myself and others...no more...no less. "Love cannot exist without some dimension of justice". I heard that in a Family Group meeting years ago and the truth never fades...here it is still.
Thanks for the ESH and the opportunity to participate. (((hugs)))
Linda - I think you are too close to him to tell even if he did progress. The saying is : "Nobody can push your buttons like family...Because they installed them." It could also be that he has made improvements with others and just not with you. Not all relationships heal with working AA. Lastly, there's exceptions to everything, AA might not take away some of our more harshly engrained personality defects. His bother you most because he is your dad and you have trauma history with him (just part of it i'm guessing). My lingering defects wouldn't bother you so much cuz you are pretty detached from me...jerry (even though you love us both dearly right? lol.)
I do love you both dearly. In all honesty, it was listening to you two that made me think.........hhhhmmm maybe not all recovering alcoholics are like my Dad.
I have said often, my dad was (not sure what word to use) 'not liked' when he was drinking by his family. When he got sober, he was the same, just he was a sober (word). He had no more excuses for his behaviour. This is him.
I have always said that with spite and anger. See.. he is just a (word) no matter what. My face screwed up while saying it with bitterness. I feel today, I am learning to say it with an acceptance as opposed to a bitterness.
Yes, my Dad is in AA and he is a recovering alcoholic. AS well as that.... he is a person who is difficult to get along with.
He is a man who is often angry, anti social and selfish. Despite the fact that he is in AA. The two may not be connected.
for all my "he shoulds", he isn't. My father has always been hypocritical and hyper-critical.
He tells us we have to compensate because he is old and deaf. So when I write things down for him, or speak louder, he says I am treating him like a child. He chooses to not put his hearing aids in and then says he wasn't able to fulfil his obligations because he didnt hear us asking.
He is here visiting me and it just so happens there is an AA roundup here at the same time. He tried to contact the AA office and was given a couple of numbers to ring for people to liaise with. He ended up not being able to get through and left a number of messages. By the last message, he was swearing obscenities to the answering machine and telling them exactly what he thought of thier service. And then he wonders why no one rang him back. I gave him the name and number of a person to ring. He spoke to them once, heard the persons name wrong and proceeded to tell me how wrong I was giving him incorrect information and telling him a different name of the person to embaress him. He continued to tell me how wrong I was for several days, even though I had rung the person and my information was correct. His final word on the subject (which came over 12 hours after the last discussion on the matter) out of the blue while sitting in the car one day was "he must have given me a wrong name because he is not interested in helping me..... and then proceded to discuss how nasty people were with lies and deceipt because they were so lazy that they wouldn't want to help another AA who is from out of town. Then he ran down my entire town saying how backwards we are when there is people like that in the helping industly making up names etc. If I were to live here I would be back drinking within months and I would know there is no help from people like that etc. He rang back the office and left a message on the machine with those sentiments expressed in no uncertain terms.
To come to any other conclusion would require my Dad admitting he was wrong about something. He has done his 12 steps and admitted his insanity while drinking, but to him.... he is now perfect cos he doesn't drink.
Anyway.,... that is just a small example of interactions over the past few days. He has been here for 10 days.
I know this board is not a place to just vent so.... how do I use this to learn and improve myself?
I guess it is my experience that just stopping drinking does not maketh the serenity be!!!! The person is still in there. I would say my Dad has never addressed the reasons why he drank in the first place so those issues have still been present in his mind and soul for the past 33 years and he has not had the companion of alcohol to take that away.
For me, I will have to move on with the understanding that this is my dad. I can't fight it anymore. I have to give up thinking I can improve this relationship. It doesn't matter how much of a good daughter I am ... he won't be a kinder man if I am a kinder daughter. It is all him.
Acceptance and a truce within myself to stop trying and learn to live with what I have got. I think that is the lesson here.
What I relate to so much in your post is how no matter what I do, there are certain relationships in my life with my closest family members that I would give ANYTHING to have be different, transformed, healed, and better for both of us. Yet, no matter what I have done to try to change them or to try to be more patient or tolerate waiting for a change, I have ended up exasperated, frustrated, and in tears. There are a few relationships in the Alcoholic dynamic that are just beyond me. And, when I say I have been yearning for change, I mean I have been waiting over a decade for a shift, for a new path, for light, for healing. I have in that time, done many things to change myself and still in some cases the dynamics of the troublesome relationships hasn't changed. It's sad, it's disheartening. Although nothing in the relationship changes, there are still things I can do for me and I want to share with you some things that have helped me.
Here's a mantra that I have used: May the doors of my heart be open. I say it over and over and over again and I find that it helps me tremendously to stay open. It helps me stay out of the places inside myself that I can go to when something that I want very much to be changed isn't changing. It keeps me in the moment. It keeps me soft. It keeps me available. It means I still walk away from arguments, but when I leave the mantra keeps me from going over my grievances over and over again and replaying the argument over and over and over again.
The other thing that has been an abolute blessing for getting me centered and calm are the meditations on this website: www.fragrantheart.com These guided meditations help me relax. They come in many times 1 minute, 2 minute, or even 20 minute meditations. Whatever problem I have when I start the meditation is still there when I finish, but I feel a million times better, refreshed.
I find that for me that when I try to change the dynamics, I often resort to trying to think my way into another way, but what I need is to act differently (by taking care of my insides with mantras and meditations).
I am starting to believe that although the dynamics of troublesome relationships may not change, what can change, perhaps the only thing that can change is my inner experience of the troublesome dynamics. If everytime, person A does X and I do Y, what I can change is to stop doing Y and do something else. In my case, I choose to stop grinding over the interaction and instead take care of myself right there in that moment.
that is lovely Blue Cloud. I do like the idea of just taking care of me in the times that I am frustrated. A mantra and a meditation has worked for me in the past with my husbands addiction, so I could employ that while dealing with my Dad.
I was of the opinion that I could change enough to have a good relationship with him. To get over our past issues and move forward in a new way in a good and happy way. It would appear that isn't going to work.
the next best option is to take care of me and ensure I am not adding to the situatoin.
Oksie...it seems...to me...that you are doing the inventory and discovery work for Oksie...How great and you will still arrive at not being able to do his part. You have learned to accept his part or non-part and that for serenity is acceptance. I've worn your Dad's shoes and even his hearing aids. I know the frustration and soul sickness of being uncomplete and there unable to participate beyond a limit I have learn in recovery not to have others pay the price for my disabilities and to have compassion with them for going thru it with me; it is as frustrating for them as it is for me. For those who participate on what ever level I know that they do it because they love and because they love and have compassion and empathy with me. We go thru this together. I use to handle it like your Pops does...with fear. The consequences of fear are anger, rage, blame, resistance, self pity and an opposition of acceptance. The opposite of fear is love and of course love cannot exist when fear is primary. See him as fearful and maybe your attitude with alter just a twinge not that you take more responsibility for him but that because you know fear also you will have more understanding of his and your own together. He like myself have the disability of being male which from my experiences mean that I most always try to come to solution thru my brain and totally disregard my heart. In early Al-Anon I was an emotional cripple and use to be soooo pissed off when the women in the program would mentor me to get in touch with my "female side". Arrrrrrrgh!! Bitches... were right on and when I did I found that the heart of a woman is much more closer to seeing and feeling solutions and to God or your HP. I value that lesson much more at times than I do any others as I surrender my head and take presence in my heart. It isn't so much what I think about the thing that brings me to solution but how I feel about it. When I think...Akua...my Higher Power laughs. When I feel Akua nods. I am sorry that you are victim of the males fear of and fear to and fear from...when we feel less than...we need to bring everything else around us lower so we can continue to be righteous and profound. I apologize for him. You are a fine daughter a wonderful woman and child of God. Keep doing what you do that makes you all that.
You can only do the work for you, which you really seem to be objective, fairminded and sane.
I have a difficult relationship with my Mom, not an alcoholic, but has dementia and other personality disorders. I can only do my work on me, I cant do her's . She is 87, doesnt have a program. Dont think there is one for her. Our relationship may never be what I want it to be.
When dealing with other people, whether they be family, siblings, friends, etc. I dont want to take their inventory but I do wonder about the capacity of others . I truly believe that people can only change to their capacity . Maybe your Dad, my Mom, have reached their capacity.
Am I making sense, this thought just came to me, I could be off. So I guess this is where the acceptance comes in. Just a thought...
Bettina, I think you are right. He has done all that he can do. What I am I going to do with that I suppose.
I just wnat him to understand and for once... just once.... hear from him that I am ok.
We get along really well in small doses. Phone calls on the weekend and the yearly visit.
This is as good as it gets. I will grow and move on. Perhaps that is the lesson the universe has for me. To understand when I can't make things any better than they are right now. Except for me in my life.... I can make that better for me.
Just an aside - I wish I had more time to respond. I can remember my uncle (many years sober in AA) going on and on in his little infantile tantrums every so often. He ruined my cousin's college graduation cuz someone he didn't like got invited by my cousin (it was her graduation after all) and he wouldn't let it go so he kept on and made her cry and made her own graduation miserable. This was with over 10 years sober in AA. I have had some crazy anger moments sober too.... It's like I don't know what to do because there's no bottle to numb things so I rant instead.
The other thing I was wondering is how much might be overlapping with senility and normal aging (or it could be Alzheimer's or something else setting in). I'm saying that out of concern. You described some areas of forgetfulness, confabulation, confusion - Those are halmarks of dementia. (aside from missed information due to his sensory deficits). I know that is all not program related....just wondering. Maybe it is program related because you are also powerless over his aging. Sounds like he was big on "respect" and often times people in AA do get kudos and respect for having long term sobriety. Now he is having to accept he is almost an invalid and cant even get to those meetings that used to fuel his identy and self esteem. It's sort of sad and pathetic.
Oh yes King Baby, I've heard that talk often in AA. Oksie, you have basically described life with my mom except her reactions aren't that volitle. She doesn't use profanities however she does yell .. lol. I know for me when I stopped expecting her to fix my broken past things got so much easier. That acceptance you are talking about is bliss for me. Accepting my mom where she is at even when she's doing the hypocritical/hypercritcal stuff lets it roll off my back so much easier on me. I don't have to take what she is doing or not personally. It's part of who she is. The best part is I don't have to do anything about it so the only action required is just to love her and take care of me (and the kids) while we visit. We had a moment of her telling the kids to grow up and I laughed .. and said .. mom .. you understand you just told an 8 and a 13 year old to grow up. What did you really want to say? That doesn't compute for either of the kids. She was so shocked by my reaction to her statement it literally stopped her in her tracks. It IS distracting to have two kids fighting in the backseat while trying to drive it's dangerous. So when she finally said .. the kids are very distracting I said ok fine, turned to the kids and said .. you guys have to stop it's hard enough driving in 6 lanes of traffic than having two yahoo's going crazy in the backseat. Please settle down, (you don't have to grow up yet .. lol). I have offered to drive however she wants that control and after driving my stbx around for a year I enjoy someone else driving. I do have the advantage that my mom doesn't throw down when I say something. I also know that my approach has changed a great deal. I'm not combative and defensive going into it. I did throw out a "seriously" in that comment and reflected later I didn't need to say that as well .. LOL .. that is one of my catch phrases that I need to loose.
Mae West is the one I think who said Getting old ain't for sissies. Boy is she right!!! My mom is in her early 70's. You'll have a better idea if this is some kind of dementia during this visit based upon how much time you spend with him and if you have an opportunity to talk to your mom. It will be easier for you to spot than someone who is living with him daily too. I know with things with my grandma I noticed before my mom did because I had that distance that helped as well. have noticed through my experience with my mom and grandma no one wants to admit they are helpless in any way. When my grandma lost her license because of age she was very upset. Now the woman hated to drive never wanted to drive and didn't if she didn't have to, however .. it was a humbling moment to realize she could no longer do for herself. When she had to move in with my mom .. that was also extremely hard on her (and my mom). She was not an easy woman in her younger years at all. I would think as a man/father/husband and even as an addict the idea of loosing control would be completely terrifying. The idea that they won't wear that crown of King/Queen call the shots, have the respect they have earned (that is said in tongue and cheek mode), it truly has to be kind of scary to think have those these are the twilight of my years kind of thoughts. I speculate as I don't know what your dad is thinking .. I do know that it's not easy to get old and loose those little liberties that as a younger person I take very forgranted.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Thanks to both fo you for caring. Yes there are normal aging difficulties, but honestly, he has always been this way. All he does is read, so even when he could hear.... he didn't because he was always soooo engrosed in a book. The reading took the place of the drinking literally. so totally immersed in a book he becomes almost catatonic. He literally will sit in the same place and read for 10 hours. My mum goes out and comes back and he is still in the same spot reading.
I do see the aging because he sleeps more now and his eyes have the grey haze of age. All the more reason I want the next 10 years (or whatever) to be peaceful.
He can get to the meetings fine. He drives. In fact, when he is home, he drives everyone else there. There is a car in the driveway that he has the keys to while he is here on holiday and he has used it fine many times. The roundup is 2 and a half hours drive away and I told him I would take him and my Mum. He chose to get angry instead for the above reasons in the first post. Now, he refuses to even go to a meeting locally because of 'thier attitude'.
The aging, yes I agree some of it is due to aging, but the examples I give could easily have been an example from 20 years ago. He has not changed. 10 years ago for my (first) wedding... he wanted me to pick him up and get him to my wedding... I told him he could drive. The conversation ensued regarding getting there until he asked for a mud map. I drew one. (I will piont out the wedding was at my house and he had been driving there from his hotel every day for the past week) Later I drew a better one and when I gave it to him and explained the road he literally screamed at me not to treat him like a child he can get himself to a (word) wedding. and he stormed off. There were plenty of alternatives. My brother was going to take him, but he didn't want that. You see... It was my wedding and he was not the centre of attention so he had to make himself the centre of attention. (I chose to go in the car with my bridesmaids). This wedding he didn't complain because he was given a lift and he was the centre of attention all done up in his kilt walking me down the aisle. He was living in my home and all the boys were getting ready there so he was 'part of the group' and unique as he was dressed traditionally and everyone was saying how good he looked etc.
I do kind of get it.... but its still frustrating. The confabulation has always been his thing. Drunk or sober, he makes up his own stories that suit him. Its almost like a paranoia and it has always been there. He is the most contradictory person I know.
I am a Nurse so I do see some of it as the aging process, but not most of it. Thanks for your input though.
Last night Mum and I refused to serve him his cup of tea after dinner. We said it was his turn to make it. He argued like a 12 year old being told to clean up his room!!!!! Well, there was sugar and milk everywhere, coffee complained about that it was instant coffee that all the low people in life have to drink (the same coffee he said was delicious yesterday when I made it for him), literally he spilt one because he said the cup was the wrong size. He looked in the kettle and said.. well I guess that enough water if no one else wants one... proceeded to boil it anyway without topping it up, told us all we deserve it if it tastes like (sh**) and its our own (**) fault. we all just sat listening (or rather trying not to) to him. Mum read the paper, I watched the TV. At one point I had to leave the room and come back when I had calmed down. At the same time the TV was blaring, the subtitles were on, he was yelling because he is deaf and then mumbling under his breath constantly. He gave me cup of tea, I said thanks and promptly drank it. He makes it difficult as a martyr and so no one will ask him again.
Last night I employed my truce and instead of arguing. or trying to help him.... I just sat, looked after myself... and drank my tea. Its as good as it gets.
Of course it also occurs to me that his behavior of either being calm or raging...of giving love or being highly chastising....splitting....This is not a cause but certainly a contributor of BPD you are working to recover from. Detachment will remain critical.
thanks pinkchip Yes I unfortunately see alot of my traits in him and I do believe he has many traits of BPD. I think thats why the two of us together can be fiery. My sister is the same also. Thats why in my first post I wrote.. hmm.. I can see the apple tree from here
I have learned detachment from my sister, and I am learning it with Dad.
